Haha, I know…
What do we still need? Aka The never ending story
- Thread starter Devil may care
- Start date
Maybe buying into press reports a bit too much as feel he may wish to leave if someon elike Barcelona come in for him.
Ive never liked him personally though he has been good this season, dont personally see him as the starting right bak in our future....and if other clubs are interested, he wont want to be number two anyway
I think that's just the stink of previous form when he was a young fullback under poor coaching and a poor functioning team where he never got a chance. The reality with Dalot is he's an excellent right back, only 23 year old, benched Cancelo at the world Cup deservedly. Wouldn't read into any Barcelona interest, the reports are they know he wants to stay and that United will extend his contract so there isn't much worry there. Rashford, Dalot are both pretty standard extensions IMO.
Dalots been one of our best and most consistent performer this year which is why I thought your OP was odd. If someone like Barca or Madrid comes in with a 60m bid for Dalot (which is roughly what I think we’d ask right now) then fair enough. Then we would be in a situation where we need to buy two RBs.
Even then… Dest has failed to impress at both Barca and now Milan, and from the bit of him I saw at the WC he looks distinctly average. Just think it would be a poor signing and would rather use the scouting network and find another Malacia than a player that we have seen struggle at two top teams in weaker leagues.
As for your first choice Vanderson, I do like the idea of having an exciting, Brazilian flair RB. Gusto another that I like, or a slightly more experienced and solid option would be Di Lorenzo at Napoli.
I like Faes too. Leicester would want too much, but he's got a ton of potential. Really well-rounded.
Preferred lineup:
———————————Striker———————————— (Martial)
Rash-————————————————————Antony. (Garnacho, Sancho, Amad)
——————-Bruno—————————————————— (Eriksen,)
——————————————CM1--------——————— (Eriksen, CM2)
——————————Casemiro———————————— (CM2, McTominay)
Shaw———-----------------------------------------————Dalot (Malacia, RB)
-------------------Martinez—————Varane------------------- (CB, Lindelof)
---------------------------------GK1-------------------------------------- (Sommer)
is my guess, so that's the following leaving permanently:
Maguire, Fred, Jones, Telles, VDB, Pellistri, Fred
Iqbal goes on loan, Mainoo sticks around as he's so young, Amad comes back
2024:
and then McTominay leaves the next year as Iqbal takes his spot. When we need a 3rd choice DM, it's whoever we sign as the CM1, since guys like De Jong and Enzo Fernandez have shown they can play there.
If Rashford stays, then maybe Sancho goes in 2024 too.
Our signings:
Striker -
CM 1 -
CM 2 -
RB -
CB -
GK (plus Sommer, the rumours do make sense for him to come in as our #2) -
Won't give specific names, but you'd figure that's a lot to do in a single summer, though we might fill one of the non-CB or GK gaps permanently rather than with a loan in January. If we don't have a ton of money, it's probably spent at ST and CM1, as you could see finding some bargains at backup RB, backup CB, starting GK and a squaddie defensive midfielder who can play as an 8 or 6, basically this is the Caicedo signing we failed to make. More likely we just keep Mctominay in that role and sign his replacement in 2024, sadly.
———————————Striker———————————— (Martial)
Rash-————————————————————Antony. (Garnacho, Sancho, Amad)
——————-Bruno—————————————————— (Eriksen,)
——————————————CM1--------——————— (Eriksen, CM2)
——————————Casemiro———————————— (CM2, McTominay)
Shaw———-----------------------------------------————Dalot (Malacia, RB)
-------------------Martinez—————Varane------------------- (CB, Lindelof)
---------------------------------GK1-------------------------------------- (Sommer)
is my guess, so that's the following leaving permanently:
Maguire, Fred, Jones, Telles, VDB, Pellistri, Fred
Iqbal goes on loan, Mainoo sticks around as he's so young, Amad comes back
2024:
and then McTominay leaves the next year as Iqbal takes his spot. When we need a 3rd choice DM, it's whoever we sign as the CM1, since guys like De Jong and Enzo Fernandez have shown they can play there.
If Rashford stays, then maybe Sancho goes in 2024 too.
Our signings:
Striker -
CM 1 -
CM 2 -
RB -
CB -
GK (plus Sommer, the rumours do make sense for him to come in as our #2) -
Won't give specific names, but you'd figure that's a lot to do in a single summer, though we might fill one of the non-CB or GK gaps permanently rather than with a loan in January. If we don't have a ton of money, it's probably spent at ST and CM1, as you could see finding some bargains at backup RB, backup CB, starting GK and a squaddie defensive midfielder who can play as an 8 or 6, basically this is the Caicedo signing we failed to make. More likely we just keep Mctominay in that role and sign his replacement in 2024, sadly.
DAlot is out of contract as things stand in the summer
Striker and CM are the big ones right now. They need to be world class, nothing less.
CB, RB and GK can wait.
The RB would just be a squad option, and the CB would be a rotational player anyway.
CB, RB and GK can wait.
The RB would just be a squad option, and the CB would be a rotational player anyway.
Striker for sure. A big lad who can link up play for our quick players. Also from set pieces.
Harry Kane fits the bill almost perfectly. Very clinical, doesn't rely on pace (how many team play a high line against us? Four?), Great passing, wins penalties, great headers, perfect.
Harry Kane fits the bill almost perfectly. Very clinical, doesn't rely on pace (how many team play a high line against us? Four?), Great passing, wins penalties, great headers, perfect.
A Striker!
We don't even need to think about other position before we get a real striker.
We don't even need to think about other position before we get a real striker.
Who can we poach from relegation teams?
Neves? Ward-Prowse?
Neves? Ward-Prowse?
CM
RW
ST
RW
ST
There's no money to spend. We're heavily leveraged up because of the amount of money we spent in the summer and the previous summer as well.
If we’re really in the rough financially we’ll have to take a few punts in the summer.
CF is the main thing obviously. Vlahovic and Osimhen (if we’ll be able to afford him at all) are the obvious targets.
Doesn’t look like we’ll be able to compete for Enzo Fernandez or Bellingham and De Jong will probably be too expensive aswell so we’ll have to look at other targets for CM.
We have a solid foundation in CM so I’d be happy taking a chance on someone like Enzo Le Fee or Maxence Caqueret here.
For defence Ndicka on a free makes sense to me, and if possible I’d bring in Kim Min-Jae while we ship Maguire and Lindelöf.
We’d probably push €200m with those aquisitions so we’d have to make some sales. Maguire, Lindelöf, Fred, Bailly, Williams, Van De Beek, Telles and Henderson should all go.
CF is the main thing obviously. Vlahovic and Osimhen (if we’ll be able to afford him at all) are the obvious targets.
Doesn’t look like we’ll be able to compete for Enzo Fernandez or Bellingham and De Jong will probably be too expensive aswell so we’ll have to look at other targets for CM.
We have a solid foundation in CM so I’d be happy taking a chance on someone like Enzo Le Fee or Maxence Caqueret here.
For defence Ndicka on a free makes sense to me, and if possible I’d bring in Kim Min-Jae while we ship Maguire and Lindelöf.
We’d probably push €200m with those aquisitions so we’d have to make some sales. Maguire, Lindelöf, Fred, Bailly, Williams, Van De Beek, Telles and Henderson should all go.
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Forwards
Who will be relegated? Think it’s so tough. Will probably see some wild relegation nerves if it stays at tight as it is. Don’t think anyone is safe from 10 (Brentford) and down. West Ham is just one point clear.
Brentford is extremely reliant on Mbumbo (sp) and Toney, but as long as they are playing they should stay up. From my point of view, Villa, Leicester, Wolves and West Ham should be too strong to be regulated. But sometimes it’s just bottom out for a team like this. We are almost halfway in and they have no marginals. If WH fires Moyes and get it wrong with the next manager they could be out.
But looking at the remaining teams, Leeds, Bournemouth, Southampton and Nothingham — the real prices from my point of view are probably Tyler Adams of Leeds and Romeo Lavia of Southampton.
Lavia looks good, to be honest we need to bolster the squad with cheap, reliable squad players, no more DVB, McT etc.
Feck sake just buy him.
With Shaw performance as CB I think the back up CB priority goes down the list.
We desperately need a striker and then a CM.
We desperately need a striker and then a CM.
I agree. Selling Lindelof gives us a big profit since we basically have amortized the transfer fee we paid for him.
What do you guys think we could get for Lindelof?
If we manage to sell at least AWB, Maguire, Fred, Van de Beek and Henderson (for 15-20m) — we should be able to buy a player or two in the summer, but we can’t make even cheaper signings to replace Fred, Donny, AWB and co. We could spend like 150m on two guys, and that is it. We need to start to implement youth in the lineup if are going down this route (ie paying big for a striker in the summer). Amad, Mejbri, Laird, Garnacho and co,
To be honest I think we may have a definitive back line at the moment.
We just need a new top cm to take over from Eriksen and a striker, the rest would be reinforcements.
We just need a new top cm to take over from Eriksen and a striker, the rest would be reinforcements.
That's how I feel too, and both positions have to be world class, game changing players
We need a top striker and center midfield that can slow the tempo down and maintain possession. I feel we rush things at times
If we purchase the right center forward and central midfielder we could challenge for the league next season. Kane could be Rvp 2.0 and maybe Enzo. Any other position wouldn't make a huge difference to our current level.
Lamptey?
For me this is where we have failed for a few summers, selling players. We managed to get rid of a few last summer, only because they were out of contract and a good 2/3 of them should certainly hav ebeen sold for a tidy profit a summer or two earlier.
But not even just those players you mention there is Tuanzabe, Williams, Telles, Jones.
I still feel we could have made one more signing and had a net spend under half of what we spent in the summer
Yeah, and the reasons for this is probably several, among others:
*Too high expectations on what our players are worth
*We haven’t bought modern players in many instances, player types other team wants. If we would have been selling a ball playing left footed CB 1-2 years ago it would have been really easy. Instead we tried to sell Eric Bailly…
*We haven’t made players better, it’s not a quality stamp to buy a United player like it is to buy a Barca, Real or City player
*Our team has been dysfunctional and hence players haven’t performed well, they haven’t been put in an environment they can succeed in
Salaries are talked about a lot. But I don’t really buy it. It’s a bad excuse. When a player is sold you tear apart his old contract. The transfer only goes through if the player signs a new contract with the buying team. If we are selling a player that should be worth 25m that is making 7.5m per year for 3 years, and the standard wage for the player at the new club is 2.5m, the buying team should still be willing to buy the player for 10m, sign him to a contract that gives the player 2.5m in salaries per year, and give the player 15m in a sign on fee. I don’t know, reality is not always logical, but it’s not the whole story.
Facts are that the way our club has been operated, strongly signals that management (especially Woodward and Ole) haven’t been in touch with reality. Teams put a tax on when we want to buy a player, asks for more from us than others, teams are willing to pay us less than others. Sounds like excuses a 11 y/o comes up with. Negotiations are all about leverage, almost entirely about having leverage. If someone came to us in January wanting to buy Martinez — we would set a silly price. 100-120m. Martinez wouldn’t force his way out. What do we do if Real comes knocking offering 30m for Garnacho in mid June 2023 and Garnacho say that he will not sign a new contract but go for free to Real in 2024 if we don’t take Real’s offer,l. Then we sell for 30, we don’t ask for 100m. It’s all a matter of timing and picking your spots. Not punshing above your weight class.
I think that you should be — extremely cautious — to not sell a player you want to sell at one point, because you think value is low and that the value should only go up if you just wait. Again, it’s just childish, naive. We could reportedly have sold AWB for 15m. If we now lend him to Wolves and he plays most games ahead of Semedo, will he all of a sudden be worth 30m? In our dreams. People know AWB, he isn’t exactly an unknown entity. Sure he was out of form like most of our team second half of last season, but managers and coaches of other teams aren’t like some fans who turn on a player due to whatever type of temporary poor showing. If the the highest bid for AWB was 15m last summer, that shows that other managers don’t think that highly of him. And they know perfectly well what type of player he is and what quality he has. Sure prices can fluctuate, perhaps you get a little less or a little more if you wait. And there might exist a situation where it makes more sense to wait, perhaps. But they should in any event be very very rare and definitely the exception not the norm.
Woodward have always overrated our guys and thought he could get more by waiting — it doesn’t work. You don’t understand football if you think like that. Like do we think Ten Hag works like that? He takes a good long hard look at a player he have seen year in and year out in the Dutch league and comes to the conclusion that he don’t want him, then the same player plays well for Wolves for 3 months, and all of a sudden ETH will change his mind and want to pay 30m for this player?
We must sell players next summer. The only sane way to go about that is to declare that the players in question will be sold, let interest clubs submit their bids, take the highest bid and see if you can get more from that club or any other interested club — and then you accept the best bid you can get.
Let’s say we are to sell Maguire. 4 teams are interested. Maguire looks at them and rules out 2. Then there are two left, perhaps we can get 30m, perhaps we can get 10-15m. I don’t know. But it is what it is. Then we must determine if it’s worth it for us to sell him, or if we should keep him because for example otherwise we must replace him with a 15m player or whatever. But under — no circumstance — should we go, damn all other managers just don’t understand how good Maguire is, let’s loan him to another clubs so they can see his magnificent, then they will surely pay 40+m for him. Woodward don’t know anything about football. He might think this is how managers work. It doesn’t really matter if he plays great for anyone for 6 months. You know what you get if you buy Maguire if you are a good competent manager of an elite football team. It’s naive and childish to think seeing Maguire play 12 months on loan to like Everton will change a manager of Everton or West Ham’s mind. It really is not in touch with reality.
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Besides the relegated teams, we should also look at some of the Serie A clubs (Juventus and Inter) and also PSG. From afar, these teams seem to be in huuuge trouble with the FFP rules.
UEFA have already canceled 15% of their earnings from UEFA Tournaments. For future tournaments, the remaining 85% will be conditionally withheld. If they lose more than 60m in aggregate for the 22/23 and 23/24 season, they will not get any money from UEFA Tournaments, the withheld 85% will be forfeited. New targets to break even will be set up for the 24/25 season, if they break them they will get transfer bans and locked out of UEFA tournaments. A team can perhaps live through breaching the new FFP rules 1 or even 2 years, but longer than that won’t be possible.
Checkout this breakdown of some European top clubs by Swiss Ramble:
How the feck is Juve going from minus 240 last season (and minus 220 the year before that) to just minus 60m in total for 22/23 and 23/24?? And on top of that, Juve’s CL money is already withheld and as I understand it, they will lose that money too if they don’t show that they are on the right track next summer.
The entire board of Juve has resigned. They sold De Light to Bayern. There have been reports from high tire sources that they might sell Vlahovic despite just buying him. Same with Inter, they are desperately seeking a buyer that can help to bail them out. Who will buy them? They are in a horrible state.
https://www.ft.com/content/c6114139-ef21-4aa2-a088-59804682d3d6
We have — big — issues, but they are luxury issues compared to Inter and Juve. Worst case scenario, if Glazer stays and keeps taking out dividend, we do what Tottenham did after building their new stadium. Keeps new signings to a minimum, gives up hope of keeping a squad that surely can compete for top 4 even if we get injury problems, sell of all players that aren’t crucial. And after 3-4 years we regroup and start improving again. I haven’t looked at Inter and Juventus in detail — but they look screwed.
PSG? Seems mind boggling, from minus 370m a year to just minus 60 in total over two years? But they at least got someone picking up the tab, maybe they can then those capital contributions into earnings that pass UEFAs BS detector. But I wouldn’t bank on it. They have an insanely expensive squad. Seems like Messi and Neymar are leaving after this year — which is an indication that they must cut costs.
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Spot on.
I'd feel much better if those 2 positions were addressed going into next season.
Gakpo isn't a striker.Gakpo and FDJ. Oh, wait…….
Yeah you are probably right,problem is I am not convinced we can afford to wait until the summer for a striker. I really think we need someone on loan who can chip in.
In that order:
1. Striker who can hold the ball against defenders and score scrappy goals (both Martial and rashford don't score enough Haaland-ish or prime ronaldo-ish scrappy goals)
2. a CM who can carry the ball forward, dribble, and skip through presses (none of Casemiro, Bruno and Eriksen can provide that, even though they are all world class midfielders)
3. a third CB fitting highline play style to cover up for Varane. (Maguire is never a highline CB and Lindelof is too weak)
4. a new Allison Becker style goalkeeper (De Gea can still do the job for a year or so though)
5. a RB to cover up for Dalot (less of that need if awb stays) and a right winger to cover up for Antony (less of that need if amad returns well)
1. Striker who can hold the ball against defenders and score scrappy goals (both Martial and rashford don't score enough Haaland-ish or prime ronaldo-ish scrappy goals)
2. a CM who can carry the ball forward, dribble, and skip through presses (none of Casemiro, Bruno and Eriksen can provide that, even though they are all world class midfielders)
3. a third CB fitting highline play style to cover up for Varane. (Maguire is never a highline CB and Lindelof is too weak)
4. a new Allison Becker style goalkeeper (De Gea can still do the job for a year or so though)
5. a RB to cover up for Dalot (less of that need if awb stays) and a right winger to cover up for Antony (less of that need if amad returns well)
Who are your top two "realistic" targets for a CM and striker in the summer out of interest
I am not sure who is "realistic". I remember back in early August 2022, people stilled considered Casemiro an unrealistic target.
Really interesting post. You're right, we have to be ruthless and exploit other clubs when they are in troubleBesides the relegated teams, we should also look at some of the Serie A clubs (Juventus and Inter) and also PSG. From afar, these teams seem to be in huuuge trouble with the FFP rules.
UEFA have already canceled 15% of their earnings from UEFA Tournaments. For future tournaments, the remains 85% will be conditionally be withheld. If they lose more than 60m in aggregate for the 22/23 and 23/24 season, they will not get any money from UEFA Tournaments, the withheld 85% for be forfeited. New targets to break even will be set up for the 24/25 season, if they break them they will get transfer bans and locked out of UEFA tournaments. A team can perhaps live through breaching the new FFP rules 1 or even 2 years, but longer than that won’t be possible.
Checkout this breakdown of some European top clubs by Swiss Ramble:
How the feck is Juve going from minus 240 last season (and minus 220 the year before that) to just minus 60m in total for 22/23 and 23/24?? And on top of that, Juve’s CL money is already withheld and as I understand it, they will lose that money too if they don’t show that they are on the right track next summer.
The entire board for Juve has resigned. They sold De Light to Bayern. There have been reports from high tire sources that they might sell Vlahovic despite just buying him. Same with Inter, they are desperately seeking a buyer that can help to bail them out. Who will buy them? They are in a horrible state.
https://www.ft.com/content/c6114139-ef21-4aa2-a088-59804682d3d6
We have — big — issues, but they are luxury issues compared to Inter and Juve. Worst case scenario if Glazer stays and keeps taking out dividend, we do what Tottenham did after building their new stadium. Keeps new signings to a minimum, gives up hope of keeping a squad that surely can compete for top 4 even if they get injury problems, sell of all players that aren’t crucial. And after 3-4 years we regroup and start improving again. I haven’t looked at Inter and Juventus in detail — but they look screwed.
PSG? Seems mind boggling, from minus 370m a year to just minus 60 in total over two years? But they at least got someone picking up the tab, maybe they can then those capital contributions into earnings that pass UEFAs BS detector. But I wouldn’t bank on it. They have an insanely expensive squad. Seems like Messi and Neymar are leaving after this year — which is an indication that they must cut costs.
I have been thinking about this. Right now my estimation is we have 7 positions filled with United Quality for next season...
United lineup:
———————————Striker————————————
Rash——————————————————————RW
——————Bruno——————————————————
——————————————CM1———————————
——————————Casemiro————————————
Shaw——————————————————————Dalot
——————Martinez—————Varane————————
————————————GK1——————————————
This leaves us with quite a few solid subs....
———————————Martial————————————
Garnacho——————————————————Antony
——————Eriksen—————————————————
——————————————Fred———————————
——————————McT———————————————
Malacia—————————————————————RB
——————CB———————Linderlof————————
——————————Heaton——————————————
Now Antony is here as he has not quite shown true United quality although currently he is easily our best RW. In addition, this still leaves Sancho, Iqbal, AWB, DVB, Maguire, Amad and some other academy players to sort. In addition there is a clear issue with De Gea's contract. Will he stay and take a huge pay cut, or will he go. I have no answers there.
So honestly while we clearly need some new players, we have some players to sell. Let's look at Maguire for example. I see him as a solid CB for a low block team. He is a square peg in a round hole with a high pressing team. He should be worth a few million quid to the right team. So sell and move on. I would also expect AWB and DVB to be sold. I also would not be surprised in the future if Iqbal plays a huge part in CM but that is to be seen.
In order of buying priority a CF and GK for next season are top of the list. Then we need a RB. I am honestly ok if we wait for the right CM but we should be in for Bellingham/DeJong/or any other similar quality when/if they are available. Also we need Antony to step up, Sancho to flip back to his Dortmund days or any other signing to get us sorted there.
Bottom line is the more I look at this, with what ETH has shown so far, the more hopeful I am.
United lineup:
———————————Striker————————————
Rash——————————————————————RW
——————Bruno——————————————————
——————————————CM1———————————
——————————Casemiro————————————
Shaw——————————————————————Dalot
——————Martinez—————Varane————————
————————————GK1——————————————
This leaves us with quite a few solid subs....
———————————Martial————————————
Garnacho——————————————————Antony
——————Eriksen—————————————————
——————————————Fred———————————
——————————McT———————————————
Malacia—————————————————————RB
——————CB———————Linderlof————————
——————————Heaton——————————————
Now Antony is here as he has not quite shown true United quality although currently he is easily our best RW. In addition, this still leaves Sancho, Iqbal, AWB, DVB, Maguire, Amad and some other academy players to sort. In addition there is a clear issue with De Gea's contract. Will he stay and take a huge pay cut, or will he go. I have no answers there.
So honestly while we clearly need some new players, we have some players to sell. Let's look at Maguire for example. I see him as a solid CB for a low block team. He is a square peg in a round hole with a high pressing team. He should be worth a few million quid to the right team. So sell and move on. I would also expect AWB and DVB to be sold. I also would not be surprised in the future if Iqbal plays a huge part in CM but that is to be seen.
In order of buying priority a CF and GK for next season are top of the list. Then we need a RB. I am honestly ok if we wait for the right CM but we should be in for Bellingham/DeJong/or any other similar quality when/if they are available. Also we need Antony to step up, Sancho to flip back to his Dortmund days or any other signing to get us sorted there.
Bottom line is the more I look at this, with what ETH has shown so far, the more hopeful I am.
Now that Enzo is seemingly going to Chelsea, and Frenkie doesn't seem like he is leaving anytime soon, I'd shift attention to Nunes at Wolves. He's a tank and class on the ball, press resistant, can run with it, would be a great partner to Casemiro IMO.
Will be cheaper if they get relegated too, but i doubt they will.
Will be cheaper if they get relegated too, but i doubt they will.
The more I watch Rashford grow this year, the more I think Joao Felix would be perfect here. Has the difference making potential, can play false 9 and roam around or push to the left when Rashford goes central... get a CM like Nunes since Frenkie/Enzo aren't going to happen, and we could put out:
ST: Rashford/Martial/Felix
LW: Felix/Sancho/Garnacho
AM: Bruno/Eriksen/Amad
RW: Antony/Sancho/Amad
CM: Nunes/Eriksen/Fred
DM: Casemiro/McTominay
LB: Shaw/Malacia/Fernandez
LCB: Martinez/Shaw
RCB: Varane/Lindelof
RB: Dalot/AWB
GK: De Gea/new GK/Heaton
Honestly it's a very good lineup and backup 11. Well balanced and cover for everyone. Shaw cover for Martinez looks perfect, and if we incorporate Alvaro Fernandez as deeper cover, then we still are fine if Martinez is out by having a backup LB.
Donny, Maguire and Elanga are effectively pointless at this point, and I could see us selling AWB and replacing with Frimpong. But this way we just focus the funds on Felix, Nunes or another CM like him/Enzo/Frenkie, and then a new GK to replace De Gea the following year.
ST: Rashford/Martial/Felix
LW: Felix/Sancho/Garnacho
AM: Bruno/Eriksen/Amad
RW: Antony/Sancho/Amad
CM: Nunes/Eriksen/Fred
DM: Casemiro/McTominay
LB: Shaw/Malacia/Fernandez
LCB: Martinez/Shaw
RCB: Varane/Lindelof
RB: Dalot/AWB
GK: De Gea/new GK/Heaton
Honestly it's a very good lineup and backup 11. Well balanced and cover for everyone. Shaw cover for Martinez looks perfect, and if we incorporate Alvaro Fernandez as deeper cover, then we still are fine if Martinez is out by having a backup LB.
Donny, Maguire and Elanga are effectively pointless at this point, and I could see us selling AWB and replacing with Frimpong. But this way we just focus the funds on Felix, Nunes or another CM like him/Enzo/Frenkie, and then a new GK to replace De Gea the following year.