What exactly is the 'real' problem?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by LazyRed-Ninja, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    A very good point which a lot of people miss. Mourinho takes no active interest in the transfer process, which is a marked difference from Fergie's very hands on approach to transfers and negotiations.

    'Need Van Persie? I'll give Wenger a ring even though he hates me.'

    None of this 'only Mr Woodward knows' rubbish.
  2. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    But yet people moan when his transfers get vetoed... If he's not involved in everything, then he will never have total control. If he doesn't have total control, then he expects to get vetoed.
  3. Aug 28, 2018

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    Yep, compare to Fergie. Times have changed.
  4. Aug 28, 2018

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    What makes you think he's allowed to be involved in everything? And if you say 'because Fergie was' I'm going to be peeved.
  5. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    What makes you think he isn't allowed? Kind of an unanswerable question there.
  6. Aug 28, 2018

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    Because Woodward handles transfers. As Levy does at Spurs. Etc.
  7. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    Ah the good ole 'It's your problem, not mine' argument. There's nothing stopping Mourinho getting involved.

    Let's put it this way. If Mourinho scouted, met a player and could negotiate a good deal for a player he wants, I doubt Woodward would say 'No pls. Let me do it so we can pay more. The Glazers love spending more money on players.'
  8. Aug 28, 2018

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    How the f*ck do you know what's going on behind the scenes? :lol:

    First, you state:

    Literally made up by you. And now:

    Implying that Mourinho doesn't scouts players, which is preposterous, then making up more nonsense.

    Sorry for engaging you on this. It's my fault.
  9. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    Well do you know? Do you know exactly how the transfer process works in the club?

    If not, don't ask me fecking stupid questions like 'What makes you think he's allowed to be involved in everything?' because all you're going to get is speculation.
  10. Aug 28, 2018

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    And made up statements of fact. Don't forget those. And my favourite, laughable scenarios where our manager illegally meets players, negotiates with them without authorisation from the club, then goes and demands that the person who actually IS in charge of transfers at our club simply acquiesced to his demands. Christ almighty.
  11. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    Do you know that Mourinho personally scouts players? Or does he let someone else do the dirty work? You seem to act you you know a hell of a lot about how Jose works so I'll let you tell me.

    And who said anything about illegal activities jesus christ. Its a transfer negotiation. Mourinho just has to be beside Ed at the business table.
  12. Aug 28, 2018

    shamans Hoser

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    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.

    Who is responsible for scouting and transfers?
  13. Aug 28, 2018

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    Yes, I do know that Mourinho personally scouts players. Unless you believe he turns up to watch specific games featuring non Man United players because he's bored. Which, to be fair, you might. If so, google 'Mourinho scouts' and have a read of one of the 719,000 hits. Maybe you'll find one you believe.

    You're literally just making it up as you go with that other bullshit, so I'll leave you to it. Enjoy.
  14. Aug 28, 2018

    Wednesday at Stoke Full Member

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    I don't understand how the defense is suddenly not good enough, its the same players from last season and they didn't look this incompetent then. One could argue that Matic, when fit and on form, provides an extra layer of protection but Herrera is still completely capable of doing a half decent job there. The one understandable excuse is a lack of preseason but then again when the defense and midfield are basically the same you wouldn't expect a world cup and a summer vacation made them complete strangers to each other. Has Jose's summer-long quest for a center back dented their confidence completely? I don't think that's right either considering the window is closed now and everyone is assured of their futures for the rest of the season. It almost feels like a set up.
  15. Aug 28, 2018

    spiriticon Full Member

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    Just because he's at a game, doesn't mean he's scouting shit. But fair enough, he may be.

    In the meantime, if you can find just 1 hit that proves 'Mourinho is not allowed to take an active part in Man Utd transfers' then I will take it all back.

    I'd appreciate if you stop your shitty sarcasm when you asked a speculative, unanswerable question in the first place.
  16. Aug 28, 2018

    Ollie Derbyshire New Member

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    We hold onto average players for far too long now a days, considering the players we’ve let go in their prime or just after, keeping the likes of Smalling, Jones, Darmian, Mata, Fellaini, Young, Rojo and Valencia for this long is criminal. Before anyone says who would want them on their wages, we should be willing to practically give them away they are that bad and replacing with genuine quality, no matter the cost.

    Its not rocket science to see why we can’t put a title challenge together. If we had two world class CBs (who actually stay fit and play the majority of the games), as a club of our stature should have, then we could look to blood younger CBs in like Bailey and Lindelof. Having Valencia and Young as first choice full backs is a disgrace. Hopefully Shaw can kick on this season and rid us of one of them. Players like Martial who sulk and aren’t up for a battle should be shown the door as well. Doesn’t like playing on the right, tough, make the spot your own, score goals and provide assists or leave, better players have done the same in the past, why should he be any different. Pogba and Sanchez will soon be in that category as well.

    We need to rid ourselves of the deadwood, only then can we move forward. Half the squad just isn’t good enough, can’t be arsed or happy to pick up a pay cheque.
  17. Aug 28, 2018

    ThomasEmil Invisible Herrera Watcher

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    I find much of this believable, however I think he was amongst those considering Pogba to become a key player within Man Utd. He just didnt expect him to be so focused on his offensive play, that he didnt contribute defensively. But that wasn't your overall point, in which I agree.
  18. Aug 28, 2018

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    Mourinho was at the Austria - Russia game in Innsbruck. Why would he be there if not for scouting someone?
  19. Aug 28, 2018

    Ollie Derbyshire New Member

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    He was working for Russia TV for the World Cup, maybe just making notes on the home team
  20. Aug 28, 2018

    friendlytramp More full of crap than a curry house toilet

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    Centre backs
  21. Aug 29, 2018

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    It is not just one problem, Chelsea got to the Champions League final with Avram Grant, we won title after title with a really outdated club structure, Barcelona spend half a season without a manager and won the league.

    When a club is being well run and has quality players and staff for the most part it is very possible to paper over certain cracks. We have problems, plural.

    Edit: I don't expect anyone to read this but it doesn't half feel good to rant sometimes.

    Structure of the Club - Sir Alex Ferguson was the greatest manager to ever live and had a quarter of a centuries worth of know how about the inner workings of the club. He acted as the head coach, the director of football, human resources, was involved in marketing, brand ambassador, essentially acted as a line manager for the managers of the youth team etc.

    There wasn't a manager alive who I think could have come into a club the size of Man Utd and taken over that role. I think we realised that fairly quickly and Ed Woodward has attempted to take on some of that burden but he is unfortunately not qualified for that role despite being brilliant in other areas. The result has been hiring managers based on their reputation and blind hope rather than a long term plan that includes a style of play or an aim for team building. As an example we apparently went for Klopp before going for Van Gaal and there could not be two more different managers. We need a Director of Sport who will not just concern himself with the short term but implement a long term goal for what type of football we want to play, how we handle squad building including both new signings and promoting youth players, what the expectations should be of the manager and more. Once this is in place then everything from the managerial and coaching hiring, player recruitment, youth team setup, directive the scouts receive should all be targeted towards this identity. I also think there needs to be more pressure put on our scouts and there should be a new PR team put in place (how do we not have a youtube to rival Man City?) and player relations should not all be handled by the head coach.

    Player Recruitment - David Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho are three very different coaches, that allied to the fact that we don't really have that identity in the way that a club like Barcelona do means that we have this weird imbalanced mesh of players. I remember reading this article once called "players that you can't believe played together" it feels like that with most combinations of our players. Our desperation for a short term solution has only served to make matters worse, we were crying out for a right winger last season and we signed Alexis Sanchez instead. We were all guilty of getting over excited and thinking that we should just get the deal done "announce Sanchez!" and then worry about it later but that has never been how good teams are built.

    We have also developed a habit of signing players at terrible times. Falcao just after he came back from injury, Sanchez half way through his worst ever season, Bastian when he was clearly on the decline. Our record outside of this has been mostly average with a couple of bright sparks. If you look at the way City have spent a similar amount since Sir Alex retired there is a huge contrast.

    Additionally we have let players who were just as good or better than what we have go for very little return. Evans, Rafael, Michael Keane, Zaha, Kagawa and Blind were all sold for less than we spent on Lindlelof and Darmian. For me they would all still do just as good a job or better than the players in their positions currently, not world class players but players who we already had at our disposal and let go for peanuts to replace them with more expensive versions who performed worse. I am far from opposed to cutting dead wood but considering what we have gotten in return it just seems incredibly wasteful.

    Management - Moyes won't get mentioned, the choice to hire him falls firmly in the "not having a plan" camp. Van Gaal and Mourinho are excellent managers, this has been proven throughout their careers. However we need someone who is going to lay the foundations for a team that is going to develop over a number of years. Van Gaal can do that, if that is what he was hired for then the board needed to keep faith in him and let him continue with full backing. I think may have gotten us playing really well with enough time but he was ready to retire which poses the question why would you hire someone to start a long term project when they are going to retire in a couple of years? Didn't work out. They then completely change tact and go for a short term super manager, unfortunately that short term success hasn't come. Now we have a failing short term solution attempting to fix a long term problem. Jose should not get the blame for this but he is so clearly not the right man at this point.

    Style of Play - We don't run. We covered the lowest amount of ground in the league last season, our players are completely static unless they are in possession. Due to this when a member of our team has the ball their teammates are all being marked and they have to try and thread a pass through the eye of a needle. This makes players like Paul Pogba, Matic, Sanchez and Mata look like bad passers of the ball, they aren't. When the opposing team are on the ball they are rarely pressed and when they are it is not nearly aggressive enough, this allows them to advance up the field too easily and often results in last ditch challenges.

    We are statistically the slowest team in buildup play in the league. In boxing they say that the punches that you don't see are always the ones that knock you out, this is because when you see shots coming you can angle your head in a way that it doesn't land cleanly and clench your jaw. This is very similar with football, when you attack very slowly and predictably defenders can always be in the right place. There are so many smaller teams who play against us and end up being praised for great defensive performances where they "don't give us an inch" my god to we make it easy for them.

    Momentum - Just a small point but I think this gets underrated in football. Sometimes you just get a feeling that a team is in the ascendancy, confidence starts flowing through them and things just have a magical way of falling kindly. We are the opposite of this right now and our players confidence is shot to pieces. Sir Alex was better than anyone at creating this, we would lose a game and he would put together a run of 10 wins and suddenly we were flowing.
  22. Aug 29, 2018

    ShadesOfTomato New Member

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    Liverpool, Spurs and City have managers like that.
  23. Aug 29, 2018

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    Is Guardiola really a long term manager? He was only at Barca senior side for four years and Bayern for three. We'll have to see if he really wants to stay at City long term but I wouldn't be surprised if he is only there another year after this one.
  24. Aug 29, 2018

    ShadesOfTomato New Member

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    The manager doesn't have to be long term, but simply someone who fits into the wider direction at the club. City made preparations for Guardiola's arrival for years - with the appointment of Begiristain and other ex-Barca staff, the rehaul of the academy and similar things. Their next appointment will likely be someone of a similar stylistic mould.

    Liverpool have done similar with Klopp, who often has spoken about succession planning in order to ensure the positive trajectory of the club even after his departure. People have spoken about FSG and 'moneyball' for years, but only in recent years has this model been refined. What's clear is the club has been attempting to follow a specific direction for a good few years. Managers who can develop talented young players, and recruitment that is focused on signing players who are on the cusp of breaking onto the next level.

    You could even include Arsenal in this with the hiring of Mislintat.

    What's the plan at Man Utd? LVG, Moyes and Mourinho seem to have been completely random picks, and recruitment seems to be equally jumbled up.
  25. Aug 29, 2018

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    Ah, I see what you mean, that's fair. I wouldn't include Arsenal in that list of clubs with a plan though. Mislintat was basically a last resort stage hire. Really Arsenal should have been reformatting their organization 2013-15 rather than in 2017-18 after the Liverpool and Tottenham projects had a few years further into their projects. And we have to really see if the team Gazidis put together can deliver the goods. I think we have to wait a year or two to say it was good club building.
  26. Aug 29, 2018

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    Good point, might be true. Our media reported he is there to scout Arnautovic...
  27. Aug 29, 2018

    abdo99 Full Member

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    There are a few issues but the main and immediate problem is the manager.
  28. Aug 29, 2018

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    Hmm not really. Long term means more than 5 years or something
  29. Aug 29, 2018

    sp_107 New Member

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    Heard from a guy who got close relations with UTD, Jose tried to negotiate a deal with Chelsea by himself for Willian by offering Marrial as part of deal and informed Ed in the end when Chelsea were ready to do the business.

    This didn't go well with Ed so he not only blocked Martial swap but he went hard on Jose by not sanctioning any other transfers.

    Ed might have felt Jose over stepped in this case and reminded him who is the BOSS but it is silly that in the end it has a huge impact on our season.