Where would you honestly rank our team?

Maticmaker

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I would rate us exactly where we are now, off the top 6, but ahead of the middle table bunch.

Our best three players this season have been the three new arrivals, (that should tell us something) how long will it be before they start playing 'the United way'?

Ole is trying to rebuild that is obvious and he has to be given a chance, he is committed to bringing through young players, which considering his previous employment at United (not as a player) as a coach with the youngsters, its not surprising.

When we start well we have a chance, although we have let the lead slip a number of times, but when we start badly or sluggishly as yesterday there is honestly no way back. Tactic wise yesterday playing Rashford on his own was not a good move, not only is he not a C/F (imo) but he needs someone alongside him with his speed and directness to give defences a headache. Once James started to go directly down the middle we looked liked we might have a chance!

If we going to go back to spending big again then we need a more experienced manager (Pellegrini maybe? Sorry will go and wash my mouth out with soap!!), if we are trying (the United way) to build up from within i.e. by growing our own, then Ole can do that, but it will be a bumpy ride for a few seasons...are we ready for either, without a DoF?
 

Rhyme Animal

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The revision here is incredible...

The squad's quality is way higher than the performances we're seeing - as we saw when OGS first came in ffs.

The defense is full of first choice Internationals but is badly coached.

The midfield though thin due to not replacing Herrera, has one of the World's best midfielders, and then McTom, Fred / Matic - which is at least solid enough to serve it's purpose.

The forward options of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, James, Lingard - though missing a CF (which was OGS choice) is again full of decent quality but very badly coached.

It's a squad for 4th / 5th. No lower.
 

Branchofscience

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By the time Arsenal roll in to town United could very well be 11th. Then they have to play Liverpool after that. They couldn't be 7 points off 6th by then. So they could be stuck around 14th and 8th place for a while if they lose those two games.
 

NoPace

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We're like Arsenal in that we have 2-3 world class players that Everton and Leicester and West Ham don't, but our 2-3 worst starters in any given game are probably below Leicester's and Everton's comprehensively solid XIs.

City-Pool
Spurs
Arsenal-Chelsea-United-Leicester

Seem like the tiers for this season to me, then Everton and West Ham in the next tier, with someone joining them based on defensive solidity but too early to say who that will be.
 

Branchofscience

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Nopace there's no striker . There's no coherent unit of a midfield. No goals from midfield. 3 world class players ? Name them?
Burnley finished 7th the year before last.
Leicester Arsenal chelsea west ham all better then there's burnley wolves everton and Bournemouth as well. Could get horrendous
 

Fosu-Mens

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10th?

Even with Martial and Pogba in, our team is so unbalanced with serious limitiations or issues (fullbacks being useless in attack, slow and/or weak central defenders, one midfielder that can help play out of defense but he plays with a high risk, attackers are either a pace merchants, better when team is off the ball or with the mobility similar to a 60 year old).

City, Tottenham and Liverpool are miles ahead.

Arsenal and Chelsea got issues as well, but their average player is technically superior to our average player and their squad is not as full of limited players like our squad is.

Leicester, West Ham, Everton and Wolves are on a similar level to our first 11 or slighly better, but again with the average player being better at passing and receiving the ball.

And if you factor in the manager and the experience of the coaches then we fall further down.
 

Thiagoal

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We’re mid table average (10th ish) but Pogba and Martial elevate us to top 7 imo
 

wolvored

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we havent got a goal in us in open play. 12th to 15th with Rashfeck upfront
 

Leftback99

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No idea how anyone can think we're better than 6th. Just look at the state of that 'attack' we started with yesterday.

Meanwhile Chelsea had Barkley, Pedro, Pulisic, Batshuayi sat on the bench, Giroud, Loftus Cheek, Hudson Odoi not even in the squad.
 

AlwaysRed66

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Before the season started I thought we would probably be 6th, with the usual top 6. Now, I think Spurs, Arsenal & Chelsea will also struggle, but don't see us being above any of them. Can see Leicester challenging for top 4. Think we could be mid table, & as bad as the squad is, the manager is worse. Probably, one of the worst in the Premier league.
 

Forevergiggs1

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It's a bit ironic that when Martial and Pogba are playing they get slated the most for their performances but when they're out injured they're world class players. It's been happening for a few seasons now and I just can't work it out.

I think we'll finish somewhere between 6th and 8th. I don't think we have a great squad but our other main (historical) rivals such as Arsenal, Chelski and Spurs don't seem to be much better than us. I expect Spurs to pick up as they're notoriously slow starters and I think fat Frank will got more out of his squad than Ole. Top 4 right there. Next 4 places looks like they could be between us, Arsenal, Leicester and either West Ham or Bournemouth. Where each team will finish is a lottery at the minute. I'd put Leicester ahead of us and Arsenal but the way the Premier is at the moment it could and probably will change weekly.
 

Jeffthered

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I genuinely am concerned about our ability to win any Premiership matches at the moment.

Could you put money on us beating anyone in the Premiership at the moment?

I almost felt surprised when we beat Leicester 1-0.
 

RedDevilCanuck

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With Martial and Pogba and Maguire and DDG we are fifth or fourth.

As we have seen without 2 of these we are so much worse.

We do have some quality but a few injuries and we are literally mid table.

Leicester, Everton, Wolves, West Ham Bournemouth etc dont have any players as good as DDG or Pogba.
 

Mainoldo

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Fully fit. 4th. Top 3 defence. Top 7 midfield. Top 4 strike force.
 

Tyrion

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I'd have us 5th ahead of Chelsea tbh. I think they're a bit overrated seeing as how they're actually below us at 11th. Unfortunately, we don't have a good manager so our mediocre squad is made worse.
 

Varun

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With a fully fit Pogba, one of the contenders for 4th place. More because others around us are shit too than because we're good.

Take Pogba out of the equation and I'd back the likes of Leicester to finish above us, let alone Arsenal Spurs and the likes.
 

Strelok

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Defend:
- 1st team: 3rd
- backup: probably 10th

Attack:
- 1st team: 5th
- backup: n/a

Mid:
- 1st team: probably 8th (with the current state of Pogba, if he can sort his head out then 6th).
- backup: probably 15th

So IMO 6th in the league for 1st team and 14-15th for backup.

With a good mid in Jan our 1st team may jump to 4th though.
 

Infordin

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The fact that half the West Ham starting eleven would walk into ours says it all.
De Gea
Wan Bissaka - Maguire - Diop/Lindelof - Cresswell
Rice - Pogba
Anderson - Lanzini - Martial
Haller/Rashford​

Honest question, am I overestimating some of these West Ham players or does this look reasonable?
 

Andycoleno9

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City, Spurs and Liverpool are above us. 13-14 teams are (much) weaker than us and when i read how people say that one point is good at "always tricky" game against Saints, Watford or West Ham because they have couple of good players i find that ridiculous. But as i keep saying we are not much weaker( or stronger to be clear) than Chelsea, Leicester or Arsenal. It is maybe in +/- 10% difference. And especially i must mention that we have better team than Wolves or Everton.

It is on manager to make squad 10-20% better than it is. If not, why do you have manager? If squad quality is the only thing which matters for league position then every competition should finish by that standard. Give titles now to City, Barca and Juve. Second place to Pool, Napoli and Real. Third place to Spurs, Inter and Atletico. Norwich and Villa should pack their bags already for Championship. And so on.......

Our back 4 and gk are in top 3 in England. In midfield we have one of best mc in league, we have two strikers who are very good, 3,4 players who would be first team players in most of PL squads. Kids i will not comment but Gomes and Greenwood are supposedly next big thing, right? I mean we sold Lukaku and Alexis to make room from them so by that they should be good players. So yeah, it is now another dig at Ole but nobody in this world can't tell me that DDG- AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw- Fred, Pogba, Matic- Martial, James, Rashford should not at least battle for 4th spot and especially dominate weaker teams. Not to mention that we had Lukaku and Alexis who are good for Inter but Ole decided that they are not good enough for us.

Basically this team minus AWB and Harry and plus Lukaku finished second ffs. Doesn't matter how we played and how lucky or unlucky we were but we were second only year ago.
 

UpWithRivers

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Ability wise 4th. But that would mean every single player reaching the top if their game and the coaching team and everyone around us Arsenal/Chelsea having a not so good year. Basically a season like winning the Prem where everything goes right. 4th is our first. So between 4th and 9th is where we will finish. 7th I would guess.
 

Lentwood

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It feels like where miles away but I actually think we're a lot closer than most people believe

Look at the back five - De Gea, Shaw, AWB, Maguire & Lindelof

I would say that's a back five capable of finishing 4th/3rd....maybe even higher in time

In midfield, McTominay could easily be a top four player with the right partner and Pogba could easily be a top two player if used correctly.

The obvious weakness are, we need a second CM, at least one winger and one striker. However, with good recruitment we could conceivably fix all of that in one window

Imagine next season we line-up

De Gea, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, (£60m-80m CM), Pogba, Martial/James, Sancho, (£60m-100m CF)

That's comfortably top four at least, if the signings are right, and we damn well ought to have the cash after the last two seasons of frugality and clear-outs
 

TRUERED89

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I think this is the first time ever that no player of our starting XI would get into a pool or city starting XI...maybe with the only exception of DDG, but you could also argue that
I think Pogba and Martial would get in..
 

Treble

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It feels like where miles away but I actually think we're a lot closer than most people believe

Look at the back five - De Gea, Shaw, AWB, Maguire & Lindelof

I would say that's a back five capable of finishing 4th/3rd....maybe even higher in time

In midfield, McTominay could easily be a top four player with the right partner and Pogba could easily be a top two player if used correctly.

The obvious weakness are, we need a second CM, at least one winger and one striker. However, with good recruitment we could conceivably fix all of that in one window

Imagine next season we line-up

De Gea, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, (£60m-80m CM), Pogba, Martial/James, Sancho, (£60m-100m CF)

That's comfortably top four at least, if the signings are right, and we damn well ought to have the cash after the last two seasons of frugality and clear-outs
The quality of the manager matters though. One manager might finish 3rd with those players and another manager 13th.

You are quite optimistic about McTom and Pogba. McTom is a decent, no nonsense midfielder whose current ability is closer to midtable than to top 4, imo. Pogba is a top player but will be here next season? Probably not if we don't make the CL. The rebuilding of the team depends on the results this season. E.g., no CL, no Sancho.
 

Tom Cato

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When Marcus Rashford breaks out of his amaing slump, definitely 4th place.

Apart from the West Ham debacle, every result have been massively out of favor this season apart from the Chelsea game. I'm still upbeat about this team, the uninjured version, not the "play whoever is not sick" version.
 

bosnian_red

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People who think we aren't top 4 level don't watch Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs and whoever else so don't realize what top 4 level actually is. Believe it or not, we're still 3rd in the league since Ole took over.
 

Ødegaard

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The revision here is incredible...

The squad's quality is way higher than the performances we're seeing - as we saw when OGS first came in ffs.

The defense is full of first choice Internationals but is badly coached.

The midfield though thin due to not replacing Herrera, has one of the World's best midfielders, and then McTom, Fred / Matic - which is at least solid enough to serve it's purpose.

The forward options of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, James, Lingard - though missing a CF (which was OGS choice) is again full of decent quality but very badly coached.

It's a squad for 4th / 5th. No lower.
The squad is much better than the performances, true, but it's not much better than the results shown so far due to how big a gap there is between our top form and as soon as Pogba is out of either form or with injury.

Can't agree that the defense is badly coached because I don't see it as a defense issue right now (apart from quality on lb and rcb), but a midfield issue. The midfield is ran through at ease and aren't pressing or shielding so the defense is always on the back-foot.

OGS said in a interview that he wanted replacements for those that left. Lukaku left without a replacement.
 

TRUERED89

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I genuinely am concerned about our ability to win any Premiership matches at the moment.

Could you put money on us beating anyone in the Premiership at the moment?

I almost felt surprised when we beat Leicester 1-0.
Well Cardiff rolled into town in May and embarrassed us 2-0 on our own patch! forget the manager for a second, these guys seem like they don't even want to win for their own pride, such spineless pu$$y'$. OT is like an away ground to us these days, no team fears the place, they turn up and play us off the park..
 

Treble

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People who think we aren't top 4 level don't watch Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs and whoever else so don't realize what top 4 level actually is. Believe it or not, we're still 3rd in the league since Ole took over.
And where are we since March when the new manager effect has started to wear down?
 

bosnian_red

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And where are we since March when the new manager effect has started to wear down?
Basically the same as Spurs and Arsenal even during that period if arbitrary time right when we lost our good form and got into a slump. Again, people just don't realize what the other top 4 competitors actually are. They aren't very good. Yeah it's not great here but honestly, when we don't have a lot of key player injuries, we are better than Chelsea and Arsenal IMO.
 

bosnian_red

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I think this is the first time ever that no player of our starting XI would get into a pool or city starting XI...maybe with the only exception of DDG, but you could also argue that
Maguire walks into both next to laporte or Van Dijk (City tried to buy him anyway). Wan Bissaka I would rank ahead of Walker, not sure on Cancelo in the prem but behind TAA for Liverpools style (but a very good player anyway). De Gea/ederson/Allison you can argue anyway. Pogba gets in Liverpool, maybe gets in City but that one is debatable.

Anyway, both of those 2 have excellent starting 11's right now with almost no gaps. We still have the bulk of a very good side, but missing key pieces to put it together offensively. A quality right winger like Sancho, a quality #10 like Maddison and a quality holding midfielder like a younger Carrick would transform the side. 3 signings to "complete" the starting 11 to at least a very good level with no gaping holes really isn't bad.
 

Zlatattack

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TLDR;

- We are under performing, we are a better team than we look right now.
- Injuries have held us back and due to the thin squad will hold us back this season.
- We can't rely on just counterattacking, we need to hone better tactics for breaking teams down.
- We defintely need better players
- We might end up needing a better manager, idk if right now is the best time for that.
- Club needs a DoF, rebuild is too slow

=========== in Depth ===========

We're a better team than we look right now. We are a top 6 side, we ought to be trying for top 4 as a minimum. Right now we're woefully out of form, tactically figured out (adapting to new tactics) and we have injuries to key players. Once Pogba, Shaw, Martial and Lingard are back, we'll be a much better side. It sounds daft, but these guys are our key players right now.

Unfortunately because out squad is so thin (in terms of quality, not numbers) I expect whenever we lose a player or two, we'll look really bad. Martial is expected back, Rashford is out; this sort of thing will happen repeatedly this season because we'll either overplay our key players, or key players will run themselves into the ground. Of course the flip side is they might down tools to protect themselves from injuries.

Tactically we've been found out. We rely on the counter, we rely on the left hand side, we don't go central, we don't usually go right, we tend not to have a man in the box who can hold it up or knock it in. To beat us you sit deep and compact, then when you have position run through the middle as Matic and Mata are slow AF. We have tried knocking it about, but the passes are sideways and not forward enough, we've got nobody with the muscle or the magic to get past a couple of players and we're too slow in the pass so those who do get inbetween lines don't get the ball because the oppo have intercepted it. It's just work that needs to be done on the training ground.

Our team is good enough for top 6 over the course of the season but we need top 4 at least, so we can use it as a spring board to challenge for titles. This is how I see our squad right now;

GK = Great options
RB = AWB and Dalot, sorted
CB = Maguire and Lindelof, ok for now, won't win us a PL title i suspect. Taunzebe, good young prospect, rest - rubbish. I feel we need to sell more of the rubbish and buy another excellent CB to push Lindelof down the pecking order. This is not a priority of course.
LB = Shaw is ok, Young desperately needs replacing, ideally with someone who can push Shaw into a backup option. This should be priority, not because Shaw is a bad player, but because he's not going to be Evra.
CDM = Terrible options. Need to replace Matic, McTomminay can cover.
CM = Pogba aside we have terrible options. We need a top quality CM to replace Herrera and then in the future someone else as cover (ie replace Fred).
CAM = We could play Pogba here and he'd do really well. I don't think we should get a specialist for this position when we have Pogba, instead we should make sure we have plenty of CM options. Mata is too slow, Lingard is rubbish, Gomes is a child.
RW = Urgent attention required. AWB is not an attacking RB, I think our best option here right now is Rashford, Periera, Lingard etc, no good. We need a proper RW. Maybe one day Greenwood might be that guy, when he is, we can sell a player.
LW = Actually well stocked. James seems great and long term i think Rashford should just play here. He's at his most effective here. Wouldn't say no to Ryan Fraser in Jan as a stop gap though. We need the bodies.
ST = We need someone else to compete with Martial, someone who can head, someone who can play with their back to goal, as well as do normal striker activities. We need a 30 goals a season man.

In terms of Manager, it's wait and see. We've no great options right now, if Ole fails badly this season, i don't think he should start the next. We shouldn't axe him this season unless he looks likely to relegate us. Give the man a proper chance, write off this season as development, see how it goes. He won't win us a title though - i don't think he's that good. We'll see i suppose.

Finally, we desperately need a DoF, someone who can continue when coaches change, someone who plans long term. Right now we are losing good chances to get back to the top. This season Arsenal are rubbish, spurs are failing, Chelsea are hamstrung and yet we're worse than all of them. It was an easy opportunity to get top 4. It'll get harder as the years go on. We had the advantage of money, but other clubs have money too now. The likes of Leicester and Everton won't be selling talented players if they make it into the CL. Even Palace put up a huge fight for AWB. The finacial edge, doesn't go as far as it used to, and it wont got even this far in the future.

For those of you old enough remember when Chelsea and City hit money. They signed tonnes of players and went through loads of managers quickly, each iteration improving. You'd rather have good players on high salaries wasting away on the bench, than poor players (ironically we have poor players on high salaries). Remember how they chewed through Benjani, Adebayor, Santa Cruz, Robinho, Bellamy, Shaun Wright Phillips. They went up bit by bit before they got Aguero, Toure and Silva.

Same for Chelsea, Kezman, Schevchenko, Crespo, Mutu, Veron, Duff, Johnson, Gallas, etc... loads of players before they got their core of Lampard, Essien, Makele, Drogba, Terry, Cole, Cech, Carvalho.

We need to do the same, we need to churn through the dross, improve step by step, but we need to do it at the same stupid rate they did.
 

Lentwood

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The quality of the manager matters though. One manager might finish 3rd with those players and another manager 13th.

You are quite optimistic about McTom and Pogba. McTom is a decent, no nonsense midfielder whose current ability is closer to midtable than to top 4, imo. Pogba is a top player but will be here next season? Probably not if we don't make the CL. The rebuilding of the team depends on the results this season. E.g., no CL, no Sancho.
CMs like McTominay can afford to be functional rather than flashy, look at Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho....I think find the right partner for him and McTom will do fine with regard giving us that regular top four platform we need to then kick-on

Pogba is an issue but IF he goes, rest assured it won't be for less than £120-130m. As long as we re-invested it, I'd be confident we could pick up a player or two who would help us get over the loss pretty quickly