We need more then that. Need a #10 and another CM to compliment Pogba and Matic to. Fellaini is a good squad player but we aren't winning anything with him, Herrera and a past it Carrick as the other options. McTominay isn't the answer either.
Which players are good enough?
- Thread starter pocco
- Start date
Which one is it? The #10 or the CM? We can't fit both.
You're talking about assembling the perfect team though.
You don't need the perfect team to win the league, you need a team that can compete with the best team in the league.
If you threw Hazard into our Starting XI and had Pogba back, we'd be competing.
Why not? We need both.
Our #10 options are Mkhi and fecking Lingard. One goes hiding and the other isn't good enough if truth be told.
Our CM options are Pogba, Matic, Fellaini, Carrick, Herrera and McTominay. Pogba, Matic and Fellaini are the only ones worth staying. McTominay could stay for his age but we can't expect him to play at this high level, nor has he proven he is capale either.
If we buy a CM to complement Pogba and Matic then we've no space for a #10, and vice versa.Pretty much.
I wonder what Mourinho would do with Fergie's 11/12 and 12/13 winning sides? Probably not much.
This is the best squad we've had in years, arguably since around '09.
Depends on how Jose wants to play. There will be games (especially away) when Jose will want to pack the midfield, and for them games I think it would work. At home maybe not so much. But if we are talking about genuine lack of quality in the squad then we need both as the options we have are pretty average in reality. Obviously no squad is going to be world class throughout but how many teams would Herrera star in? or how many would Carrick even be capable of playing in now? A good squad player comes in when required and plays well (like Ashley Young to be honest). Herrera has been very poor this season and Carrick can't deliver anymore. That's not a good squad player IMO.
I just think you're expecting too much. You rightly say that it's not realistic to expect a squad to have world-class players throughout yet you then say we should buy both a top CM and a top #10 even though they'd basically be interchanging depending on which one we need for particular games. It's not really.. realistic is it? We spent 150m+ last summer and only managed to get 3 players out of it, we need to fix problem positions like LB and RW before worrying about shit like that.
Is anyone from the Barcelona defence world class? No, not a single one, they win CLs. Same could be said of the losers from the last few seasons. Atletico and Juve are made up of a mix of good players. Think we are panicking far too nuch.
Aside the areas where the "insert name who everyone loves and it's never his fault plays", whilst giving time to fledge the youngster and playing the busby way. Yep that about covers it...
The struggle is real mate. 5 years without a P.L or a proper challenge for it, and our football oh well you know.What the hell?
Man this place sometimes, I swear people these days just have the most shocking expectations imaginable.
DDG
Valencia Bailley
Pogba Matic
Lukaku
These 6 are as good as anything in our league.
Martial and Rashford
Are fantastic prospects
Fellaini
Is a specialist type player
The rest of the guys are squad level players with some like Darmain Carrick and Lingard debatably not even that level for different reasons.
The worrying thing is how bad the actual squad Jose took over was. The good thing is he’s signed very well with only Lindelof and Mykytarin having question marks against them.
Going forward I can see Jose buying a left back as Shaw is unfortunately a busted flush and another midfielder to compliment Matic and Pogba (best two in the league imo) so we can go toe to toe with any team in the league and play our own game a bit more.
The big signings will be the two behind Lukaku as we lack severe class in this area and we need a couple of match winners when we are struggling which only our two kids are at the moment.
It looks like Bale, Griezmann, Sanchez and Özil will all be available to the highest bidders/contracts in most cases. I think Jose needs to buy two for these positions (not necessarily from this four). So that’s four in total players and another huge outlay for the club.
Then we will eventually need to start to replace Valencia due to age the following season. We still have a long way to go till we are back to the top but we are making great strides under Jose and the average players that so filled our squad mostly during the LVG era are weeded our bit by bit.
Valencia Bailley
Pogba Matic
Lukaku
These 6 are as good as anything in our league.
Martial and Rashford
Are fantastic prospects
Fellaini
Is a specialist type player
The rest of the guys are squad level players with some like Darmain Carrick and Lingard debatably not even that level for different reasons.
The worrying thing is how bad the actual squad Jose took over was. The good thing is he’s signed very well with only Lindelof and Mykytarin having question marks against them.
Going forward I can see Jose buying a left back as Shaw is unfortunately a busted flush and another midfielder to compliment Matic and Pogba (best two in the league imo) so we can go toe to toe with any team in the league and play our own game a bit more.
The big signings will be the two behind Lukaku as we lack severe class in this area and we need a couple of match winners when we are struggling which only our two kids are at the moment.
It looks like Bale, Griezmann, Sanchez and Özil will all be available to the highest bidders/contracts in most cases. I think Jose needs to buy two for these positions (not necessarily from this four). So that’s four in total players and another huge outlay for the club.
Then we will eventually need to start to replace Valencia due to age the following season. We still have a long way to go till we are back to the top but we are making great strides under Jose and the average players that so filled our squad mostly during the LVG era are weeded our bit by bit.
De Gea, Valencia, Bailly, Matic, Pogba, Martial, Rashford & Lukaku.
Can also make arguments for a injury-free Jones (but you really shouldn't, because he won't ever be injury-free).
Add a 3rd high-quality midfielder / second striker / #10 and that midfield and attack with some coaching can do it.
We are in need for a new right back soon, and left back years ago, and a proper attacker from between midfield & up to the striker to link it all and provide some defensive help to Pogba & Matic.
The issue with the question from the get go is that it's not a first XI that wins the league, sure you need those qualities as well but you'll most often need the second-strings to be of high quality as well.
We currently lack 2-3 players for the first 11, but we also need to up the quality on our squad-players. People who will play when the main guys are tired or injured. If we had Griezmann for example, we'd still fall to Lingard when we do a change.
When Jones gets injured we're still down to Smalling/Rojo who aren't terrible defenders by any means, but they aren't good enough for that first XI spot through a season, and with how much Jones is injured we simply either have to Upgrade on Jones or on them (and it's much easier to upgrade one than two).
I think it's a major reasoning for why we don't play with both Rashford and Martial at the same time, having someone to throw in with qualities when it also gives the few quality players we have rotation makes sense.
We need upgrades on a few of Lingard/Mata/Mkhitaryan & maybe a proper right-winger to boot.
This is of course going by the "perfect template" picked out of my own arse without any sort of management knowledge or experience, so it's only meant for fun.
Can also make arguments for a injury-free Jones (but you really shouldn't, because he won't ever be injury-free).
Add a 3rd high-quality midfielder / second striker / #10 and that midfield and attack with some coaching can do it.
We are in need for a new right back soon, and left back years ago, and a proper attacker from between midfield & up to the striker to link it all and provide some defensive help to Pogba & Matic.
The issue with the question from the get go is that it's not a first XI that wins the league, sure you need those qualities as well but you'll most often need the second-strings to be of high quality as well.
We currently lack 2-3 players for the first 11, but we also need to up the quality on our squad-players. People who will play when the main guys are tired or injured. If we had Griezmann for example, we'd still fall to Lingard when we do a change.
When Jones gets injured we're still down to Smalling/Rojo who aren't terrible defenders by any means, but they aren't good enough for that first XI spot through a season, and with how much Jones is injured we simply either have to Upgrade on Jones or on them (and it's much easier to upgrade one than two).
I think it's a major reasoning for why we don't play with both Rashford and Martial at the same time, having someone to throw in with qualities when it also gives the few quality players we have rotation makes sense.
We need upgrades on a few of Lingard/Mata/Mkhitaryan & maybe a proper right-winger to boot.
This is of course going by the "perfect template" picked out of my own arse without any sort of management knowledge or experience, so it's only meant for fun.
We have the need to absolutely put things into boxes. Good enough depends largely on who's the coach, what system he plays, what teammates are available, who the opponent is, etc. There are only a few players, at any good team, who are always gonna be bad or always good.
Darmian, Lingard, Smalling, Blind, Rojo are bang average - along with possible one or two more. Yes, we have some great players, but there is still too much deadwood in the squad, IMO. Why was Lingard given a huge new contract? Decent player but not Manchester United quality.
If that's true, then the manager is doing a very underwhelming job.
i'd say it's a mix of manager's doing underwhelming jobs and Fergie doing an amazing job with the player's he had. I mean that 10/11 side had no right to win a title and get to a CL final.
Yeah, that is true.
I think Jose is going to have to sit down with Woodward and the Glazers and be realistic that he needs another 4-5 players next Summer. LB, RW and a #10 or Support striker (ala Griezmann) are absolute essentials. We are crying out for creativity and without signing someone of that nature the same problems will occur next season. Then ideally another CM and possibly a RB as cover or alternative to Valencia, although he may keep Fosu Mensah to do that.
The board needs to pull up their socks and actually back the manager in the market. Ideally we need the Real Madrid midfield and the PSG attack. Mou’ll have the defense solid and tough to beat, so all the midfield and attack have to is create and bang in dem goals. Simples.
Alternatively, we can maybe make do with two FBs, a creative CM (so an injured Pogba doesn’t make the midfield redundant), Griezmann or #10, and finally a RW (preferably someone who isn’t a #10).
Oh and they all need to be world class if we’re actually serious about challenging.
Sorry. Still kinda cheesed off.
Alternatively, we can maybe make do with two FBs, a creative CM (so an injured Pogba doesn’t make the midfield redundant), Griezmann or #10, and finally a RW (preferably someone who isn’t a #10).
Oh and they all need to be world class if we’re actually serious about challenging.
Sorry. Still kinda cheesed off.
So not much then.
I don't know why so many of us put our players down so much. Some of these lists are ridiculous.
First Team
De Gea
Valencia
Bailly
Jones (if he can stay fit)
Rojo (if he comes back OK)
Matic
Pogba
Lukaku
Martial
Rashford
Squad:
Romero
Smalling
Blind
Darmian
Young
Herrera
Miki
Fellaini
Ibra
All those players are capable of either starting every week in a title winning team, or playing games where specific attributes are required.
There are very few who are not good enough for us.
Mata should probably move on at this stage
Lingard doesn't offer enough
Lindelof is a work in progress
Smalling if Lindelof steps up
First Team
De Gea
Valencia
Bailly
Jones (if he can stay fit)
Rojo (if he comes back OK)
Matic
Pogba
Lukaku
Martial
Rashford
Squad:
Romero
Smalling
Blind
Darmian
Young
Herrera
Miki
Fellaini
Ibra
All those players are capable of either starting every week in a title winning team, or playing games where specific attributes are required.
There are very few who are not good enough for us.
Mata should probably move on at this stage
Lingard doesn't offer enough
Lindelof is a work in progress
Smalling if Lindelof steps up
If I were going to rip up our team and start again, the only players I'd retain would be
De Gea
Romero
Pogba
Bailly
Matic
Martial
Rashford
There are a few other decent players like Valencia, Herrera, and Lukaku, but none of them we couldn't easily improve upon.
Then we have some painfully average players like Smalling, Jones, Blind, Darmian, Young, and Mata
Then there's the trash like Mkhitaryan, Lingard, Lindelof, and Shaw.
De Gea
Romero
Pogba
Bailly
Matic
Martial
Rashford
There are a few other decent players like Valencia, Herrera, and Lukaku, but none of them we couldn't easily improve upon.
Then we have some painfully average players like Smalling, Jones, Blind, Darmian, Young, and Mata
Then there's the trash like Mkhitaryan, Lingard, Lindelof, and Shaw.
If you were to list the top ten wingers/attacking midfielders in the league we wouldn’t have anyone in the list. That’s a huge problem and we could spend fortunes and still not get anywhere.
We also have way too many players who aren’t good enough and/or don’t compliment the few players of genuine quality we have. You don’t need to have a team full of world class players but you also won’t get anywhere with a random group of players which is pretty much what we have.
We also have way too many players who aren’t good enough and/or don’t compliment the few players of genuine quality we have. You don’t need to have a team full of world class players but you also won’t get anywhere with a random group of players which is pretty much what we have.
How many United players would walk into Chelsea's or City's first team?
I think we need to see things from perspective. We've got alot of good players in the team HOWEVER, most aren't good enough to be regular first teamers in a serious title winning contending team. I mean how many United players would walk into Chelsea's or City's first team? I can only think of 2 maybe 3 players tbh (3 is pushing it).
In my opinion we've got 1 WC player (DDG), 3-4 players who do not look shabby in a serious title winning contending team (Bailly, Lukaku, Valencia ) IF we add quality around them and 3 very promising players that can one day become WC (Martial, Pogba and Rashford). The rest aren't really that great.
In my opinion we've got 1 WC player (DDG), 3-4 players who do not look shabby in a serious title winning contending team (Bailly, Lukaku, Valencia ) IF we add quality around them and 3 very promising players that can one day become WC (Martial, Pogba and Rashford). The rest aren't really that great.
Pogba, Matic, and DDG would walk into both. I think Bailly, Martial, Lukaku, and Valencia would all go into Chelsea's side, maybe Jones too?
I'd say our first XI is pretty much on par with Chelsea's but obviously weaker than City's right now, which isn't a bad thing, their side is ridiculous.
City are on another level at the moment, but I don't think the current Chelsea side is great; I think they've gone backwards since losing Costa and Matic. Some very good players e.g. Hazard, but some average players too.
De Gea
Bailly
Smalling
Rojo
Jones
Valencia
Pogba
Matic
Martial
Rashford
All good enough in my view. What is required is the right level of coaching/system etc - but all of the above are not much less talented than rival players.
With regards to Martial and Rashford, not saying we couldn’t use a better player on one wing, but both are still good enough to play on the other one and be in the team.
Bailly
Smalling
Rojo
Jones
Valencia
Pogba
Matic
Martial
Rashford
All good enough in my view. What is required is the right level of coaching/system etc - but all of the above are not much less talented than rival players.
With regards to Martial and Rashford, not saying we couldn’t use a better player on one wing, but both are still good enough to play on the other one and be in the team.
- Last game fully justified Conte's reason of letting Matic go. Our CMs got schooled by Chelsea's midfield (embarassing really).
- Morata > Lukaku. Lukaku is just a goal poacher and he's not really very good at it either (compared to the Inzaghis, RVNs and Shearers).
- Martial, Pogba and Rashford are extremely talented players who will one day become WC. However I cant see them put the likes of Fabregas, Willian and Hazard on the bench just yet
- I agree with DDG and Valencia.
sorry but I totally disagree, you're overrating Chelsea and underrating us based on one away game at a ground we always seem to get beaten at.
Matic is class and Chelsea were nuts to let him go. He was basically playing the game in midfield by himself against 3 players cause Herrera was dogshit, not sure what you expect.
If you think Pogba wouldn't get in that midfield ahead of Cesc then you're nuts.
Agreed. I don't think this Chelsea side is anything special, which makes yet another defeat sown there even more annoying. It's like we have a weak mentality when we go there.
I love Tony V, but from the captain I'm expecting a hell of lot more, if not skill (crosses) then fight. I think he's been getting away with it due to his excellent performances last season. Had we the luxury, I'd drop him.
Can't believe I'm saying this after the eye watering amounts we've been spending but we really need to invest in a RB, LB, AM, RW and recall Pereira.
Can't believe I'm saying this after the eye watering amounts we've been spending but we really need to invest in a RB, LB, AM, RW and recall Pereira.
We really need to begin starting Martial every game.
I truly believe Mou is mishandling some of the man-management situation here. And also with tactics of parking the bus in big games.
I'm now accepting winning PL this season has already shipped away.
I truly believe Mou is mishandling some of the man-management situation here. And also with tactics of parking the bus in big games.
I'm now accepting winning PL this season has already shipped away.
Matic, Pogba, Dave and anyone of our first choice central defenders could get a place in city's team. Obviously Lukaku was a Chelsea target, Martial & Rashford would both also improve their team. We've plenty of very good players, just a lot of them are out of form & the system isn't helping them, as in we're not playing to their strengths.
Individually some players may be good enough. Like Bailly. He is not a team player. Look at him on the pitch. Yes this is his second year but he does not play as a team. He may be good individually but unless you think and does what the team does he will fail. Morta got in front of him and he did nothing. When we have the ball look at him, he simply walks . Maybe because there is no leader in the defence. We had world class defenders when we won. We do not have even PL class top defenders now.
We have a right back who cannot cross the ball. We do not have a left back. Matic is good and so is Herrera for me. The two forwards of Martial and Rashford are good. Lukaku to me is not good enough to lead the line at United. About 5 to 6 players need to be moved. Rui Faria also has to take a lot of blame for this. He is the one who takes the regular training. If he cannot see the basics mistakes made during the game and do not correct it then he is as much responsible for these things.
Look at corners and free kicks. We take the easiest way to defend against them. Straight into the keeper's hand. There is no blocking of the keeper, no blocking of the defenders, no near post flicks and most importantly, no player coming in beyond the far post.
We have a right back who cannot cross the ball. We do not have a left back. Matic is good and so is Herrera for me. The two forwards of Martial and Rashford are good. Lukaku to me is not good enough to lead the line at United. About 5 to 6 players need to be moved. Rui Faria also has to take a lot of blame for this. He is the one who takes the regular training. If he cannot see the basics mistakes made during the game and do not correct it then he is as much responsible for these things.
Look at corners and free kicks. We take the easiest way to defend against them. Straight into the keeper's hand. There is no blocking of the keeper, no blocking of the defenders, no near post flicks and most importantly, no player coming in beyond the far post.
I think I went right into a minefield which I am in no mood to be in so lets agree to disagree on this. However here are my two points which should bring some food of thought
a- Its one thing doing well against the likes of Everton or Stoke. However the big games are a different cup of tea altogether. There's far more pressure in those games and far less space for doing mistakes. If we want to seriously challenge for titles then we need to perform in the latter AS well as in the former.
b- Players like Pogba, Martial and Rashford are pure talent and will surely become WC players. That doesn't mean they are there yet. I rate Pogba and had been rating him since I've seen him play live in one of our youth games. However he's yet to gain that discipline needed to be effective in the big games.
"let's agree to disagree" usually means ending the argument instead of continuing trying to prove your point.
As such, I'll end it for you.
Not really, I am just giving you some food for thought while avoiding the hype train in redcafe. After years debating that maybe Foster, Howard, Shaw, Evans, Jones, Wes, the Da Silva twins, Nani and Ando aren't half as good to what most posters think, I guess I've ran out of steam.
Don't worry though, Im sure we'll soon meet a Crystal Palace or an Everton. In that particular occasion our players will prove their worth proving critics like myself wrong. Lukaku will probably score a hattrick, Jones will be a rock at the back, Matic will be our Robson, Mkhitaryan will do so well on the flanks and Herrera will be amazing. Those players are magnificent against such opposition.
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Let it go, Jesus Christ.
When you say agree to disagree you end the debate, not try continue to prove the person wrong.
Let's just agree that you're wrong and move on.