Ramos
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Don't watch enough Copa América to judge that, but if it were solely based on World Cups it would be Messi.
He's still played them in friendlies a few times and racked up his goal total. Which is fine. Just saying it in a point when someone else was trying to count it against Ronaldo which is bs.Messi literally doesn’t play these in qualifiers. They are CONCACAF, Argentina is in CONMEBOL.
Over the course of matches, I can imagine Messi playing more difficult teams with Argentina v Ronaldo with Portugal especially with a lot of the cannon fodder you get in European qualifying.He's still played them in friendlies a few times and racked up his goal total. Which is fine. Just saying it in a point when someone else was trying to count it against Ronaldo which is bs.
The Castrol Index had Toni Kroos as the best performing player of the tournament. Thomas Muller both scored and assisted more than Messi. Robben, James and Neuer can be arguable choices as well. You can even make an argument about Mascherano being the best argentinian player of the tournament. Well, that's why modern individual awards shouldn't be a part of the discussion.Nope.
If you made an argument for James Rodriguez or Arjen Robben that would've been more legitimate.
Robben vanished after that game vs Spain and has zero goals and assists after. makes no sense to argue about Messi deserving it yet nominate player with worse stats and who also lost in earlier round (directly to Argentina).Robben, James and Neuer can be arguable choices as well.
this probably gives him a little edge for me. But it’s not much between them. Same amount of trophies, similar goal tally pr matchMessi carried his team to a WC final and and now to Semifinals, what are you people talking about? Seriously
Robben scored the opener the next game against Australia, an assist against Chile and got the penalty that allowed them to get past México (which I think was another reason why he wasn't awarded). Plus, he scored again against Brazil in the 3rd place definition. James scored 6 goals in 5 games so there's that.Robben vanished after that game vs Spain and has zero goals and assists after. makes no sense to argue about Messi deserving it yet nominate player with worse stats and who also lost in earlier round (directly to Argentina).
Colombia reached quarters only, I don't think they would ever award the player from such team.
It´s not only about goals and assists, you'll never learn, will you?Robben scored the opener the next game against Australia, an assist against Chile and got the penalty that allowed them to get past México (which I think was another reason why he wasn't awarded). Plus, he scored again against Brazil in the 3rd place definition. James scored 6 goals in 5 games so there's that.
In the game against Argentina the best players were Mascherano (for marking Robben) and Romero (for the penalties), no Messi. In the knockout matches, Messi's only contribution was an assist against Switzerland in the second round. So it's false that he carried Argentina to the final, as other poster was stating.
While it's blatantly obvious that Messi has had the better international career, he didn't "carry" Argentina to a WC final. Mascherano was more influential than he was in that tournament (although Messi was still very good).Messi carried his team to a WC final and and now to Semifinals, what are you people talking about? Seriously
Excellent summary. I'd emphasize that individual awards (MOTM, POTT) also mean very little in this discussion, as like you said, this is a team sport. The first WC I watched was 1994 and I don't remember any player individually carrying his team throughout the tournament. Maybe 2006 Zidane could fit in the category, but that squad was incredible (Viera, Makelele, Henry, Ribery et al).The actual arguments used by the more involved fans (fanboys) in this debate sums up the whole business.
Numbers.
Neither of 'em has had a particularly impressive WC to date when compared to players who have had that.
Messi can still have it.
(And no - that actually does not mean that he has to win it. Football is - shock and horror - a team sport. Great players have had great World Cups without ending up winning the thing.)
Full credit to you Iker, cheers.The last 1.5 years puts Messi above Cristiano Ronaldo in international career.
you should try the nfl or baseball, this is clearly not your sport.I am so bored of this two lads, can't wait for the little dictator to walk in tears tomorrow and joy his buddy Cristiano on the retiree bench.
As good as they've been, time for new characters!
Pretty dismissive and petty response just because he said something you don’t agree with. I think a lot of people are tired of the Ronaldo circus and media fixation, especially when hes not capable of producing much of note on the field any more. Messi is still tearing it up, so we get to enjoy him for a little while longer. But I can certainly appreciate the argument that some might be a little bored of the whole thing. Personally very tired of hearing Argentina described as “Argentina and Lionel Messi”. And just as dismayed at the emergence of player fans, instead of club fans, as the prevailing medium of support amongst younger generations.you should try the nfl or baseball, this is clearly not your sport.
Pretty dismissive and petty response just because he said something you don’t agree with. I think a lot of people are tired of the Ronaldo circus and media fixation, especially when hes not capable of producing much of note on the field any more. Messi is still tearing it up, so we get to enjoy him for a little while longer. But I can certainly appreciate the argument that some might be a little bored of the whole thing. Personally very tired of hearing Argentina described as “Argentina and Lionel Messi”. And just as dismayed at the emergence of player fans, instead of club fans, as the prevailing medium of support amongst younger generations.
This right here is exactly why I can't wait for the whole Messi and Ronaldo circus to end. I loved them both in their Prime (hated Messi for a time around 09-12, no prizes for guessing why) but it's time for some fresh faces and this whole player fans era to die, although they'll probably just jump over to Haaland and Mbappe.Pretty dismissive and petty response just because he said something you don’t agree with. I think a lot of people are tired of the Ronaldo circus and media fixation, especially when hes not capable of producing much of note on the field any more. Messi is still tearing it up, so we get to enjoy him for a little while longer. But I can certainly appreciate the argument that some might be a little bored of the whole thing. Personally very tired of hearing Argentina described as “Argentina and Lionel Messi”. And just as dismayed at the emergence of player fans, instead of club fans, as the prevailing medium of support amongst younger generations.
I wonder what's so bad about player fans. It's not any more or less stupid than supporting a football club. Personally, I follow my own team but besides that, I'm much more interested in players/coaches than clubs. If a team is no longer entertaining, why would I watch it?This right here is exactly why I can't wait for the whole Messi and Ronaldo circus to end. I loved them both in their Prime (hated Messi for a time around 09-12, no prizes for guessing why) but it's time for some fresh faces and this whole player fans era to die, although they'll probably just jump over to Haaland and Mbappe.
I see your point, I disagree regarding the institutions as that's what many people have grown up on and fell in love with the history of their associated club, I love Manchester United because it reminds me of my grandad who I used to watch it with when I was younger and he would tell me all about the history, Busby babes etc so it became a huge part of my affiliation with him when I was younger.I wonder what's so bad about player fans. It's not any more or less stupid than supporting a football club. Personally, I follow my own team but besides that, I'm much more interested in players/coaches than clubs. If a team is no longer entertaining, why would I watch it?
Some people are interested in the sport and not the stuff around it (history, fan communities, etc.). For me, it's much more childish to primarily follow an institution regardless of the people it's represented by.
OK, enjoying a player and taking their interest in their career is one thing, but it becomes cultist when you see the kind of one-eyed bias you see from some people who have decided to align themselves behind a sports figure and decided they'll big up everything that person does and put down any of their rivals. While it's perfectly possible to NOT take it to such extremes, the level of discourse on twitter or even forums like these when "fan boys" get involved is just atrocious. Unfortunately, it's the mental ones who are the loudest and I think it's hard to look beyond that when you see it happen so often.I wonder what's so bad about player fans. It's not any more or less stupid than supporting a football club. Personally, I follow my own team but besides that, I'm much more interested in players/coaches than clubs. If a team is no longer entertaining, why would I watch it?
Some people are interested in the sport and not the stuff around it (history, fan communities, etc.). For me, it's much more childish to primarily follow an institution regardless of the people it's represented by.
I think the issue is:I wonder what's so bad about player fans. It's not any more or less stupid than supporting a football club. Personally, I follow my own team but besides that, I'm much more interested in players/coaches than clubs. If a team is no longer entertaining, why would I watch it?
Some people are interested in the sport and not the stuff around it (history, fan communities, etc.). For me, it's much more childish to primarily follow an institution regardless of the people it's represented by.
Not if we're talking GoAT. Maradonna would not be GOAT without the world cup.The actual arguments used by the more involved fans (fanboys) in this debate sums up the whole business.
Numbers.
Neither of 'em has had a particularly impressive WC to date when compared to players who have had that.
Messi can still have it.
(And no - that actually does not mean that he has to win it. Football is - shock and horror - a team sport. Great players have had great World Cups without ending up winning the thing.)
Stop embarrassing yourself mate.Right now I still think Ronaldo has better international career. Reasons?
- all time international top goalscorer
- Won first ever Euro for his country (1 out of 1)
- Won 2 major trophy for his country (2 out of 2)
- Only player who score in 5 Euro + 5 WC
- Euro all time top scorer
- Euro Golden Boot
vs
- all time South American top scorer
- Won 1 Copa for his country (1 out of 15)
- Won 1 Olympic for his country (u-23)
- WC Golden Ball
But if Messi finally wins this WC for Argentina, sure it’s Messi.
It was every 3 years until 2007 they decided it to be every 4. Then the 2016 one was a special celebration for the centenary. And then after 2019 they dediced to par it with the euro. It's not that hard to undestand.I don't see how it was settled with the Copa win when Ronaldo already had a Euros win, with the Euros being a MUCH more difficult and prestigious competition. And more organized, whereas the Copa they just kept throwing random competitions in to give Messi more chances at a win. It's a competition that's supposed to be held every 4 years like the Euros and yet, they had it in 2004, 2007, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2021... Like come on. You just start losing respect for it.
Messi has probably had the better international career, but it's basically decided on the back of this world cup semi final. Ronaldo was a key player on 2006 when they made the semis. Messi made the final once, but lost. That was the difference before now in their world cup careers, which is basically an irrelevant difference as they lost anyway.
It's not a question of who is the better player. There is no contest there. But who has achieved more in their international careers is a fair question. Ronaldo has more goals in the Euros (and is record goalscorer) in fewer matches than Messi has in the Copa America for example (where he isn't the record goalscorer). Ronaldo is the all time international top scorer. Both of those points probably even out the minuscule difference in their world cup careers... But if Argentina make the final, then it's hard to argue against Messi. If they win the thing, then it's clearly Messi.
It will simultaneously drive Ronaldo into a mental breakdown. He's been fiercly competitive with Messi for years.Argentina winning World Cup would give us definite answer on this question.
The Castrol Index had Toni Kroos as the best performing player of the tournament. Thomas Muller both scored and assisted more than Messi. Robben, James and Neuer can be arguable choices as well. You can even make an argument about Mascherano being the best argentinian player of the tournament. Well, that's why modern individual awards shouldn't be a part of the discussion.
Right you are. Robben, James, Neuer, Mascherano. Kroos did alright but it was Schweinsteiger post 1/16 that did the work, especially in that final. Just for that performance alone I'd crown him player of the tournament.Robben scored the opener the next game against Australia, an assist against Chile and got the penalty that allowed them to get past México (which I think was another reason why he wasn't awarded). Plus, he scored again against Brazil in the 3rd place definition. James scored 6 goals in 5 games so there's that.
In the game against Argentina the best players were Mascherano (for marking Robben) and Romero (for the penalties), no Messi. In the knockout matches, Messi's only contribution was an assist against Switzerland in the second round. So it's false that he carried Argentina to the final, as other poster was stating.
Without an absolutely and unquestionably iconic world cup performance - yes.Not if we're talking GoAT. Maradonna would not be GOAT without the world cup.
Not comparing it with Ronaldo, but between Messi and Maradonna, Messi will never topped Maradonna without a heroic in the world cup final.Without an absolutely and unquestionably iconic world cup performance - yes.
If he had won it, somehow, without being outstanding in it (say, by leaving the pitch after 15 minutes in the final and making a spectacle of himself on the sideline) - then not so much.
(I'm obviously not denying that actually winning a major trophy has an impact on a player's historical legacy - it clearly has. But the Messi/Ronaldo fanboys have seemingly decided that football is no longer a team sport: it's Messi/Ronaldo who wins and loses, not the team.)
One of the worst takes in this thread, and that tells a last.. So, being the best player in the tournament or in a game does not mean anything because it is a "team game".I'd emphasize that individual awards (MOTM, POTT) also mean very little in this discussion, as like you said, this is a team sport. Maybe 2006 Zidane could fit in the category, but that squad was incredible (Viera, Makelele, Henry, Ribery et al).
I seriously doubt you watched 94 WC as most will remember Baggio's and Romario's magic in that tournament. Baggio in particular was way more impressive than Zidane in 2006 in that tournament and can be said to single-handedly carry his team to the WC final..The first WC I watched was 1994 and I don't remember any player individually carrying his team throughout the tournament.
Wrong, it is the Ronaldo fanboys doing that as there is not a single tournament where he was the best player of his team or the tournament with the NT.But the Messi/Ronaldo fanboys have seemingly decided that football is no longer a team sport: it's Messi/Ronaldo who wins and loses, not the team.)