Don't watch enough Copa América to judge that, but if it were solely based on World Cups it would be Messi.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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When they have shared the same stage, Messi trumps him.
He's still played them in friendlies a few times and racked up his goal total. Which is fine. Just saying it in a point when someone else was trying to count it against Ronaldo which is bs.
Over the course of matches, I can imagine Messi playing more difficult teams with Argentina v Ronaldo with Portugal especially with a lot of the cannon fodder you get in European qualifying.
anyone even debating about the quality of teams in their qualifying groups is insane. if you're averaging 3 or 4 goals per game and score about 35-40 goals in total of 10 group matches, it's quite obvious where's the catch. Argentina scored 19 goals in 18 games in their last world cup qualifiers 
seriously.
seriously.The Castrol Index had Toni Kroos as the best performing player of the tournament. Thomas Muller both scored and assisted more than Messi. Robben, James and Neuer can be arguable choices as well. You can even make an argument about Mascherano being the best argentinian player of the tournament. Well, that's why modern individual awards shouldn't be a part of the discussion.
Messi carried his team to a WC final and and now to Semifinals, what are you people talking about? Seriously
Robben vanished after that game vs Spain and has zero goals and assists after. makes no sense to argue about Messi deserving it yet nominate player with worse stats and who also lost in earlier round (directly to Argentina).
Colombia reached quarters only, I don't think they would ever award the player from such team.
this probably gives him a little edge for me. But it’s not much between them. Same amount of trophies, similar goal tally pr match
I am so bored of this two lads, can't wait for the little dictator to walk in tears tomorrow and joy his buddy Cristiano on the retiree bench.
As good as they've been, time for new characters!
As good as they've been, time for new characters!
Robben scored the opener the next game against Australia, an assist against Chile and got the penalty that allowed them to get past México (which I think was another reason why he wasn't awarded). Plus, he scored again against Brazil in the 3rd place definition. James scored 6 goals in 5 games so there's that.
In the game against Argentina the best players were Mascherano (for marking Robben) and Romero (for the penalties), no Messi. In the knockout matches, Messi's only contribution was an assist against Switzerland in the second round. So it's false that he carried Argentina to the final, as other poster was stating.
It´s not only about goals and assists, you'll never learn, will you?
The last 1.5 years puts Messi above Cristiano Ronaldo in international career.
The actual arguments used by the more involved fans (fanboys) in this debate sums up the whole business.
Numbers.
Neither of 'em has had a particularly impressive WC to date when compared to players who have had that.
Messi can still have it.
(And no - that actually does not mean that he has to win it. Football is - shock and horror - a team sport. Great players have had great World Cups without ending up winning the thing.)
Numbers.
Neither of 'em has had a particularly impressive WC to date when compared to players who have had that.
Messi can still have it.
(And no - that actually does not mean that he has to win it. Football is - shock and horror - a team sport. Great players have had great World Cups without ending up winning the thing.)
While it's blatantly obvious that Messi has had the better international career, he didn't "carry" Argentina to a WC final. Mascherano was more influential than he was in that tournament (although Messi was still very good).
Excellent summary. I'd emphasize that individual awards (MOTM, POTT) also mean very little in this discussion, as like you said, this is a team sport. The first WC I watched was 1994 and I don't remember any player individually carrying his team throughout the tournament. Maybe 2006 Zidane could fit in the category, but that squad was incredible (Viera, Makelele, Henry, Ribery et al).
Argentina winning World Cup would give us definite answer on this question.
So, a team winning/not winning a couple of games will determine the best player. Neither of them will ever be as good as Karembeu though.
Full credit to you Iker, cheers.
you should try the nfl or baseball, this is clearly not your sport.
Pretty dismissive and petty response just because he said something you don’t agree with. I think a lot of people are tired of the Ronaldo circus and media fixation, especially when hes not capable of producing much of note on the field any more. Messi is still tearing it up, so we get to enjoy him for a little while longer. But I can certainly appreciate the argument that some might be a little bored of the whole thing. Personally very tired of hearing Argentina described as “Argentina and Lionel Messi”. And just as dismayed at the emergence of player fans, instead of club fans, as the prevailing medium of support amongst younger generations.
In my vision, you can't be tired of two of the greatest players to ever play this game. You can be tired of their fanboys. But the way he said it, if you don't enjoy at least one of them making history, this is not for you. There is not such a thing as players fans, it just happens with players that come once in a lifetime, we got lucky enough to have two at the same time which may not happen for a long time again. People will still support their club or country once they're retired.
And there's absolutely no need to throw that kind of message here, you can avoid entering into the thread if you know you don't like these kind of debates. It's not that hard.
This right here is exactly why I can't wait for the whole Messi and Ronaldo circus to end. I loved them both in their Prime (hated Messi for a time around 09-12, no prizes for guessing why) but it's time for some fresh faces and this whole player fans era to die, although they'll probably just jump over to Haaland and Mbappe.
I wonder what's so bad about player fans. It's not any more or less stupid than supporting a football club. Personally, I follow my own team but besides that, I'm much more interested in players/coaches than clubs. If a team is no longer entertaining, why would I watch it?
Some people are interested in the sport and not the stuff around it (history, fan communities, etc.). For me, it's much more childish to primarily follow an institution regardless of the people it's represented by.
Giroud has a better WC career than both #GOAT
I see your point, I disagree regarding the institutions as that's what many people have grown up on and fell in love with the history of their associated club, I love Manchester United because it reminds me of my grandad who I used to watch it with when I was younger and he would tell me all about the history, Busby babes etc so it became a huge part of my affiliation with him when I was younger.
I don't necessarily have a problem per se with player fans, it's just everyone I've ever met or interacted with is so one-note 'my player is the best and everyone who likes the other player is either an idiot or doesn't know football' and it predominantly seems to be young teenage boys. I tend to see better engagement between people who support football clubs, unless they're on a clear wind up, as they've seen their teams rise and fall throughout the years so can speak on bad experiences as well as good, whereas player hopping doesn't allow that.
OK, enjoying a player and taking their interest in their career is one thing, but it becomes cultist when you see the kind of one-eyed bias you see from some people who have decided to align themselves behind a sports figure and decided they'll big up everything that person does and put down any of their rivals. While it's perfectly possible to NOT take it to such extremes, the level of discourse on twitter or even forums like these when "fan boys" get involved is just atrocious. Unfortunately, it's the mental ones who are the loudest and I think it's hard to look beyond that when you see it happen so often.
I don't think many would argue that football club fandom doesn't have an element of childishness, it's why many grow out of it and it becomes more of an interest than a passion as we get older.
Another point, to take your comparison of the concept of club fandom vs that of player fandom to its logical conclusion: football is a team sport, so it would make optimal 'sense' to follow teams, i.e. follow whichever group of players you find enjoyable as a team (not clubs), rather than individuals, no?
I think the issue is:
- It's a team sport wherein the collective is always considered the most important aspect. The focus on the individual to the extent we see it now is definitely a new / strange thing. The likes of Pele and Maradona were always admired and adored but there was a semblance of balance rather than a mob like support.
- Moreover it also becomes an issue when that focus co-exists with a supposed support for a club. It's better to say I'm a <<insert player>> fan rather than pretend to be a clubs supporter too and then have people question why you don't appear to really due to the affinity for the individual.
- Lastly I think there's a difference between being an admirer and a cultist. Fans of football clubs tend to be critical of their own whereas the trend of these rabid bot player fans is to basically ride their dick regardless. It's all very strange if some of them are actually adults.
Not if we're talking GoAT. Maradonna would not be GOAT without the world cup.
Has to be tough for Ronaldo , it was obviously him before Argentina's copa win but assuming Messi gets his second WC final the equation will be heavily in his favor.
Gotta suck.
Gotta suck.
Stop embarrassing yourself mate.
It was every 3 years until 2007 they decided it to be every 4. Then the 2016 one was a special celebration for the centenary. And then after 2019 they dediced to par it with the euro. It's not that hard to undestand.
I would say up to now Ronaldo has had because he won the Euros.
It will simultaneously drive Ronaldo into a mental breakdown. He's been fiercly competitive with Messi for years.
Right you are. Robben, James, Neuer, Mascherano. Kroos did alright but it was Schweinsteiger post 1/16 that did the work, especially in that final. Just for that performance alone I'd crown him player of the tournament.
Otherwise Mascherano would be very deserving if they had won. Javier played great and he was "el jefe", the boss, for that Argentina on and off the pitch. Same role that Veron had in 2010 who was their best player in that WC and before that Riquelme was the main star 2006 together with Maxi Rodriguez.
And also as you say Messi was not the best 2014 during the knockout games. Gosh, I'll probably get somebody labeling me a hater, but that is simply how I remember it from a neutral standpoint. Nani was also Portugals best player 2016, not Ronaldo even though he was very good as well.
Without an absolutely and unquestionably iconic world cup performance - yes.
If he had won it, somehow, without being outstanding in it (say, by leaving the pitch after 15 minutes in the final and making a spectacle of himself on the sideline) - then not so much.
(I'm obviously not denying that actually winning a major trophy has an impact on a player's historical legacy - it clearly has. But the Messi/Ronaldo fanboys have seemingly decided that football is no longer a team sport: it's Messi/Ronaldo who wins and loses, not the team.)
Not comparing it with Ronaldo, but between Messi and Maradonna, Messi will never topped Maradonna without a heroic in the world cup final.
Truth be told it's unfair that Maradonna has made a meal out of that World Cup, he was to unfairly put on the pedestal even 800 goals don't seem to make a dent of Maradonna being number 1.
Again, that's all the magic of winning the world cup for your country.
One of the worst takes in this thread, and that tells a last.. So, being the best player in the tournament or in a game does not mean anything because it is a "team game".
Curry being selected as the NBA Finals MVP means little because it is a "team sport" ..
Jordan being selected as the season MVP means little because it is a "team sport"..
Messi winning 7 Ballon D'ors mean little because it is a "team sport"..
If Argentina and France play the final, with the way things are going, either Mbappe or Messi will be chosen as the MVP of WC based on their superior performance, and that means little because it is a "team sport".. I mean this is ridiculous, do you really follow team sports?
Luckily, the rest of the world and players highly care about individual awards.. Ronaldo or any other top player would kill to have an MVP award in a WC or any other tournament..
I seriously doubt you watched 94 WC as most will remember Baggio's and Romario's magic in that tournament. Baggio in particular was way more impressive than Zidane in 2006 in that tournament and can be said to single-handedly carry his team to the WC final..
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Wrong, it is the Ronaldo fanboys doing that as there is not a single tournament where he was the best player of his team or the tournament with the NT.
Messi had plenty of tournaments where he was not only the best player of his team but also chosen as the best player of the tournament. Actually, he was chosen as the MVP in every single type of tournament he participated in unlike Ronaldo who has none, the reason why Ronaldo fans have to highlight the team awards as if Ronaldo won them alone. That is the big difference you fail to notice between Ronaldo and Messi fans where Messi fans emphasize individual awards/performance as football is a team sport..
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