This is ridiculous. Ole failed in the Champions league before failing in the Europa. Plus Its completely different competition at a much worse level. Might as well throw Tottenham in with the Carabao cup.
Who screwed up more in the final, Pep or Ole?
- Thread starter VidaRed
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Having previously lost twice to Tuchel, it must have got to Pep with his team selection, however....
Ole managing to lose to such weak opposition.... absolute joke.
Ole managing to lose to such weak opposition.... absolute joke.
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Obviously Ole. The EL doesn't mean much compared to the CL though, but we were up against Villarreal. We're 2nd in the PL and they are 7th in La liga.
Guardiola did not do a great job, but City joined a long list of clubs who failed to win their first final. It's pretty typical.
United have no such excuse, they even won the EL recently.
United have no such excuse, they even won the EL recently.
Pep. Best team in Europe and an unlimited budget, and he keeps making the same mistakes in these big games.
At least freezing in the headlights was a first for Ole.
At least freezing in the headlights was a first for Ole.
Ole was playing EL final cause he got eliminated in UCL group stage, thanks to losing to a turkish side who was battling for relegation until last weeks.
I do think Pep messed things up yesterday, but first let's remember why is Ole playing a Europa League.
I do think Pep messed things up yesterday, but first let's remember why is Ole playing a Europa League.
Both. They both picked the wrong starting eleven and paid for it.
Not only did he feck up by putting Sterling in the team, he took their most inform player in Gundogan and put him as a defensive midfielder.
So City became weaker in 2 positions.
Then because he wanted to protect Gundogan, he couldn’t play Cancelo as he was too attack minded and had to play Zinchenko (who was at fault for the goal).
You could tell City were not right. The team was unbalanced and only one man is to blame.
So City became weaker in 2 positions.
Then because he wanted to protect Gundogan, he couldn’t play Cancelo as he was too attack minded and had to play Zinchenko (who was at fault for the goal).
You could tell City were not right. The team was unbalanced and only one man is to blame.
Pep’s selection looked a little strange but I thought it was a very defensive approach by Chelsea, 10 men back most of the time, some good individual quality, and the occasional break away. City were the better team, I thought, but they had individuals below par, lost DeBruyne and the front players seemed to struggle with the pressure of being favourites.
I don’t think it was some kind of masterclass from Tuchel but he got his players to give him 100% and the game plan of getting men back and clogging the area was effective. I think Chelsea will draw a lot of games that they should be winning with Tuchel in charge.
Pep’s error was team selection, beyond that, his players let him down a tad.
In our final, we were far the better team, had good chances to win it but we faded when Ole decided against making subs. The bench was very thin in terms of making attacking subs and his options were limited, probably he should have made some subs earlier but there is a definite case against every single sub you can suggest so I don’t blame him that much.
Bottom line, I don’t think either Pep or Ole were especially culpable.
I don’t think it was some kind of masterclass from Tuchel but he got his players to give him 100% and the game plan of getting men back and clogging the area was effective. I think Chelsea will draw a lot of games that they should be winning with Tuchel in charge.
Pep’s error was team selection, beyond that, his players let him down a tad.
In our final, we were far the better team, had good chances to win it but we faded when Ole decided against making subs. The bench was very thin in terms of making attacking subs and his options were limited, probably he should have made some subs earlier but there is a definite case against every single sub you can suggest so I don’t blame him that much.
Bottom line, I don’t think either Pep or Ole were especially culpable.
VdB had a very good game against Wolves do yes I would have gone with him alongside McT of Fred really wasn't fit. Rashford was utterly useless the last couple of months
Sure the CL losses hurt more. But that's not really relevant to this thread is it?
Also our EL final performance was utterly embarrassing. Been told by various 'neutral' fans how incredibly boring and low quality the game was. Ole just doesn't bring the best out of his player material which is one of his biggest flaws.
I don't disagree the CL loss hurt way more. But that shouldn't come as an excuse for our inept performance on Wednesday when it was our only chance for a much needed trophy
The way City plays suits United way more than the way Villareal played. Tuchel having a better record against Pep does not change that.
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I’ve been told by various neutral fans that Villarreal were boring and that only one team was properly trying to win that game. I wasn’t embarrassed losing on penalties when the only miss was by our goalie.
Neither us nor City were at our best but it wasn’t mostly down to the coaches, even if they might have changed things with hindsight. They were tight games that we each ended up on the wrong side of, it happens (it happened to Chelsea in the FA cup, no?).
These inquests after marginal defeats (despite being the better sides) are pretty embarrassing. Both us and City just have to get back on the horse and do better next year.
Finally made the final by not tinkering
Tinkers in the final, loses
Can't make this up
Tinkers in the final, loses
Can't make this up
I think we beat villereal 7/10 times and probably lose 1/10. We have been beating these teams all years. Villereal are obviously v good at it and very good in cups etc. But with no injuries and without losing all momentum at end of season and without it being a final we would Be comfortable
1 shot at goal wasn't it during the whole of 90 mins? That's "properly" trying to win? Not in my book. Also that argument of Ole apologists that these "inquests" come after just one game are incredible. It's simply not true. If we like City won the league or actually anything during this season or any season since Ole took over we would be more patient. Same if we actually played good football on a constant basis. We haven't and we aren't. We are not performing to the level this squad should. Simple.
I don't disagree that United usually beats these kind of teams, but it might have played in that it was Ole's first European final. Emery has played these before, just like Mou when he won it for United. Both Emery and Mou won it parking the bus, Mou even against an inferior team on paper. It wasn't pretty, but it was effective and probably the wise move at the time. I think the combination of being favorite and this being his first got to Ole as it got to Tuchel last year. Had United met City, United would have been underdogs, and in a final that would be a big plus. Just as it was for Chelsea.
I guess I agree yes. Emery is arguably the master these last ten years and that did show in his team's focus and confidence late in the game. I have a slightly contrarian view that ole made a brave decision making no subs in normal time with all the scrutiny that would bring... Subs like James or fred simply wouldn't have (and didn't end up) improving us. We had a good second half and for half an hour it looked inevitable we would win. But maybe when we got to extra time you could think, that hasn't paid off with another goal and why can't ole get anything from this team now, does he know what to do
Just don’t agree with you, sorry.
More I think about it, it’s like two opposite ends of the spectrum here with both scuppering the chances of a trophy.
Ole hates rotation to the point he seems stubborn, he doesn’t seem to trust any other formation any more and has his set favourite players who are basically untouchable. It would take Rashford coming off on a stretcher for him to have been subbed against Villarreal.
Pep is the opposite - literally experimenting in a CL final with a starting XI he’s never used before, it’s bonkers. He has unreal tactical knowledge and gets his teams playing great football but I think you can look at his CL eliminations with City and directly see his tinkering costing them in almost every one.
Ole hates rotation to the point he seems stubborn, he doesn’t seem to trust any other formation any more and has his set favourite players who are basically untouchable. It would take Rashford coming off on a stretcher for him to have been subbed against Villarreal.
Pep is the opposite - literally experimenting in a CL final with a starting XI he’s never used before, it’s bonkers. He has unreal tactical knowledge and gets his teams playing great football but I think you can look at his CL eliminations with City and directly see his tinkering costing them in almost every one.
Pep 7 days a week and twice on a Sunday !!!
Ultimately he has all the riches in the world at his fingertips, a world class XI and a world Class Second string, a good mid season break due to covid over Xmas while every other club was flogging their players to death (figuratively of course)
Ole guilty of not making changes early but a clear message that our squad depth was not trusted to turn the tide.
Pep has had plenty of opportunities to learn from his over thinking and yet he fails to do so. No sympathy for his over elaborate hand gestures, No sympathy for his death by 1000 cuts of possession football.
Ultimately he has all the riches in the world at his fingertips, a world class XI and a world Class Second string, a good mid season break due to covid over Xmas while every other club was flogging their players to death (figuratively of course)
Ole guilty of not making changes early but a clear message that our squad depth was not trusted to turn the tide.
Pep has had plenty of opportunities to learn from his over thinking and yet he fails to do so. No sympathy for his over elaborate hand gestures, No sympathy for his death by 1000 cuts of possession football.
Ole and United had a far superior side and squad to their opposition.
Pep and City, well they were up against one of the only other sides bankrolled and able to have the quality in depth they have. Somewhat speaking.
Still I’d probably have to say Pep, in a season with no fans and not even a half full stadium in the final, there’s not the same pressures of an intense CL encounter. He had to be winning this one. Whereas Ole just doesn’t have the pedigree, I can’t tell if he’s doing an okay job or just a poor SAF imitation act. His league finishes have been okay, the signings okay.
Pep and City, well they were up against one of the only other sides bankrolled and able to have the quality in depth they have. Somewhat speaking.
Still I’d probably have to say Pep, in a season with no fans and not even a half full stadium in the final, there’s not the same pressures of an intense CL encounter. He had to be winning this one. Whereas Ole just doesn’t have the pedigree, I can’t tell if he’s doing an okay job or just a poor SAF imitation act. His league finishes have been okay, the signings okay.
One over complicated it and one didnt complicate it enough.
Ole. City were playing against a strong side, Pep got it wrong with the team selection, but it was never going to be easy.
United had a much better squad than Villarreal, but Ole failed to manage the game properly.
You could say though that a feck up at the CL final is much worse than the EL final.
United had a much better squad than Villarreal, but Ole failed to manage the game properly.
You could say though that a feck up at the CL final is much worse than the EL final.
Why am I the least surprised by both teams losing and can’t blame the managers. I’d say Pep because he as the championship winning coach is supposed to win and cement his dominance. Losing to Tuchel all season puts a dampener on his league winning achievement.
Ole is trying to build a SAF playing style which always struggled against Spanish opposition because they just slow the game down on us and we become toothless. Only way we could have countered it was making sure our crosses were always sent in early.
Pep thinkers and that is what makes him the great manager he is. This overwhelms old school managers but the younger generation seem to have his number because most of them are a student of his mind and how it works. Just like it was for SAF in relation to Pep and Mourinho, they always seem to know what his next step was going to be.
Unai and Tuchel should just be given the credit of doing the right things to win them their respective finals. Not labelling them as Fluke.
Ole is trying to build a SAF playing style which always struggled against Spanish opposition because they just slow the game down on us and we become toothless. Only way we could have countered it was making sure our crosses were always sent in early.
Pep thinkers and that is what makes him the great manager he is. This overwhelms old school managers but the younger generation seem to have his number because most of them are a student of his mind and how it works. Just like it was for SAF in relation to Pep and Mourinho, they always seem to know what his next step was going to be.
Unai and Tuchel should just be given the credit of doing the right things to win them their respective finals. Not labelling them as Fluke.
Yeah, I wasn't saying Ole was blameless. In the Villarreal game he clearly didn't motivate the players enough (although I do question how the players can be so flat in a final and do not put that all on the manager) and he should've subbed players on earlier. However, his selection was right.
Pep on the other hand got his selection wrong, failed to motivate his players and made his subs too late. It was an absolute disasterclass. Chelsea should've gone in 2 or 3-0 up at half time and could have won the game 3 or 4-0 as they had the best chance in the second half too.
I was certain we would win it that year. And i think we had tried to sign robben before the season started aswell.
I feel Ole did not even try to be smart with attacking subs change obvious keeper move etc. Pep tried to be clever, but failed.
I rather have a creative manager like Pep than someone like Ole that matchcoach worse than your average CAF user at times.
I rather have a creative manager like Pep than someone like Ole that matchcoach worse than your average CAF user at times.
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Guardiola hands down, but that is because he is the better manager(Ole isn't even in the same tier) and is expected a lot more from him and his squad. They were also playing in a much more important competition and Guardiola has a tendency to do stuff like that. Ole is just not good enough and that might be the best he can do.
Both were atrocious but Pep was worse. He changed what he had going right for him for months, changed it completely. He absolutely made a bollox of it and he should be getting the blame. Ole picked what he believes to be his best team and stubbornly refused to change it. Pep just made a bollox of the whole thing.
I think the failure of both is massively overstated.
Ole got his starting eleven right - it should have done the job in regular time and this discussion wouldn't have been here at all. I do think he needs to be more brave in making subs, even though the subs on paper don't make the team better. Towards the end of the match it was clear we had lost some energy and we needed some fresh legs in, but he didn't make the changes causing Villareal to being more in charge of the game. So yeah, Ole must learn from this and trust his squad more, that's definetely something that Fergie would have done.
Pep initial selection was certainly a bit suspect, but it's massively overstated how bad it was. Looking back he should have gone with Fernandinho in and Sterling out, but it wasn't really in defence their main problem was (they only conceeded once, had the match ended something like 3-4 it would have been a different matter). They're main problem was their attacking play with just about everyone underperforming on the night. Looking at the selection it should have made them really good in possession and a bit suspect in defence, but their possession play was woeful on the day, and I don't think that was down to the selection. Ironically, the much maligned Sterling was probably their most dangerous player in the first half - still a weird choice mind. But then Tuchel is a great coach as well, and truthfully there isn't that much between the Chelsea and City teams yesterday in terms of quality, it's pretty much De Bruyne that makes up the main difference and he barely did anything right before getting injured.
Ole got his starting eleven right - it should have done the job in regular time and this discussion wouldn't have been here at all. I do think he needs to be more brave in making subs, even though the subs on paper don't make the team better. Towards the end of the match it was clear we had lost some energy and we needed some fresh legs in, but he didn't make the changes causing Villareal to being more in charge of the game. So yeah, Ole must learn from this and trust his squad more, that's definetely something that Fergie would have done.
Pep initial selection was certainly a bit suspect, but it's massively overstated how bad it was. Looking back he should have gone with Fernandinho in and Sterling out, but it wasn't really in defence their main problem was (they only conceeded once, had the match ended something like 3-4 it would have been a different matter). They're main problem was their attacking play with just about everyone underperforming on the night. Looking at the selection it should have made them really good in possession and a bit suspect in defence, but their possession play was woeful on the day, and I don't think that was down to the selection. Ironically, the much maligned Sterling was probably their most dangerous player in the first half - still a weird choice mind. But then Tuchel is a great coach as well, and truthfully there isn't that much between the Chelsea and City teams yesterday in terms of quality, it's pretty much De Bruyne that makes up the main difference and he barely did anything right before getting injured.
Good take.
Ole, we lost to a team of Premier League and Championship rejects. Difference was, they had fire in their n
bellies, something to play for. We turned out thinking ‘OK Bruno, do your stuff’ and when he didn’t or couldn’t we were fecked.
bellies, something to play for. We turned out thinking ‘OK Bruno, do your stuff’ and when he didn’t or couldn’t we were fecked.
Michael Cox tactical breakdown of the game in the athletic pointed out chelsea essentially used the same attacking plan and patterns they used in the FA cup semifinal and City were again completely unprepared for it
So yeah, bald cnut really screwed up big time
So yeah, bald cnut really screwed up big time
Thanks for the reply, but I believe that Ole's absolute number one goal, is to identify what our weaknesses are. For example, our catastrophic defense and letting in stupid, avoidable goals nearly every game. How many times have we gone behind just to have our attack rescue the game? It has been an unbelievable season for that. Ole should have seen that absolutely ages ago and worked to fix that. That does not mean that he has to train the defense, but his job has got to be to grab those defenders and defensive coaches by the neck last year and say "If another goal goes in in that Sunday league manner - you are fired/benched." If that happened Villa Real would not have scored.
The same is true of the low block that we can't beat.
Also a manager's job is to find the strengths of all his squad. Why the lack of any experimentation throughout the season? Amad and Van de Beek, maybe they don't have the qualities to play for a club this size, but we have seen nothing of them. Who knows, maybe Amad had the cross to Cavani to put us 2-1 up. No one will ever know. Ole talks constantly about the youth but come on.
If these issues we addressed when they should have been then that one game we are talking about would have a Utd win.
Pep made a mistake in one game. Ole's mistakes are ongoing.
Yet the fact City won the games that matter against us still stands.
Tuchel Chelsea style is not very alike to us, nor their record against Pep City in games that matter.
Pretty decent going unbeaten to and to only finish behind a manager who only made a mistake in one game, while making mistakes all the time.
PL games between 1 and 2 on the table don't matter now?
It's Pep of course it is, Man City's biggest game ever and they mustered one shot on target in 97+ minutes.
When you consider the line ups probably Ole played what he considers our best line up for our game the team didn't deliver of course I think that's more on the players than Ole, Pep bizarrely discounted the previous 50+ games in a season they won 2 cups aside for a team selection without a proper defensive midfielder.
When you consider the line ups probably Ole played what he considers our best line up for our game the team didn't deliver of course I think that's more on the players than Ole, Pep bizarrely discounted the previous 50+ games in a season they won 2 cups aside for a team selection without a proper defensive midfielder.
Did it have the final feeling to it where it can change the momentum of the title race? No. Doesn't matter since we were in no position to challenge for the title with City (2 digits point gap at the time). Similar thing happened in Mourinho second season, when we beat City preventing them from being crowned champion in that game. Right after the game, Mourinho pretty much congratulate Pep for winning the title.