Bilbo
TeaBaggins
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2004
- Messages
- 14,271
I actually feel a bit sorry for you mateI saw the result. It's meaningless to me. Still the same brittle team who will inevitably choke when any pressure is on, so what's the point?
I actually feel a bit sorry for you mateI saw the result. It's meaningless to me. Still the same brittle team who will inevitably choke when any pressure is on, so what's the point?
There are different ways to look at it I suppose. Are bigger clubs performing worse because they are inferior in quality to last season, or is it because the overall strength of the league has improved to the point where those teams are finding it harder to put wins together? Who knows. It could be argued until the end of time. What I see currently is a league that has these coaches:But which teams have actually got stronger? I'd argue only Westham AV and possibly Everton whereas teams like SU, Liverpool and WBA definitely aren't. Teams like Spurs, Chelsea (under Lampard), Arsenal, Southampton, Wolves haven't improved on last seasons form and the rest of the make up numbers teams are still doing just that. Leicester and ourselves are a constant, Leeds just plays suicidal football.
Just because mid/lower table clubs are taking points off the big boys doesn't mean they've improved and my own personal opinion is that standards are on power with previous seasons with the exception of the bigger clubs which has seen a fall on what's expected of them as a club.
Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.I actually feel a bit sorry for you mate
I do agree that we are blessed with the managers we have in the PL but I'm still of the opinion that the only team that's really improved from last season is Westham. Who'd of thought we'd of been saying that about Moyes?There are different ways to look at it I suppose. Are bigger clubs performing worse because they are inferior in quality to last season, or is it because the overall strength of the league has improved to the point where those teams are finding it harder to put wins together? Who knows. It could be argued until the end of time. What I see currently is a league that has these coaches:
Pep, Klopp, Mourinho, Bielsa, Tuchel, Ancelotti, Rodgers, Ole
Not to mention other coaches such as Dean Smith, Arteta, Hassenhutl, Moyes, Nuno who all have very decent teams at their disposal with matchwinners amongst them. Almost every fixture looks like a banana skin. I personally believe that this is the strongest PL there has been in overall depth. We have the 1st & 4th current favourite for the CL, and the top 3 fancied teams for the EL.
However, even if we take your belief that the league is similar in strength, United are 14 points better off than we were after 25 games last season
We mostly look back at last season as a mediocre first 2/3rds followed by a strong finish once Bruno was signed. What we've done is largely carry on from where we left off which is what everybody was hoping would happen.I do agree that we are blessed with the managers we have in the PL but I'm still of the opinion that the only team that's really improved from last season is Westham. Who'd of thought we'd of been saying that about Moyes?
Looking at last seasons standout managers apart from the obvious, Chris Wilder was being touted (on the caf) as a future United manager, Hassenhuti was being touted (on the caf) as the next up and coming young manager and Nuno who I respect as a manager even though I'd never want him anywhere near United things are looking like it's going stale for them so 3 of the strongest underdogs last season haven't improved and in Chris Wilder case it's been a disaster, with maybe only Dean Smith taking the place of the 3.
On your last paragraph. You're (respected) opinion is the league has gotten stronger and you rightly mentioned that we're 14 points better off than this time last season but looking at it logically, if the league has gotten stronger and we have a lot more points that would mean that we have vastly improved on last seasons form. Do you think that's the case?
I'm with you on the bolded parts. That's probably my reasoning on why I don't think the league is any stronger than in previous seasons. I've watched a lot of football this season and more often than not it's been a slogfest. I'll comment on us because I very rarely miss a game but from what I've seen whenever we've dropped points it's not because the other team is better than us but more often than not it's because our own standards have dropped which is to be expected playing so many games on the spin. It certainly feels like death by football this season.We mostly look back at last season as a mediocre first 2/3rds followed by a strong finish once Bruno was signed. What we've done is largely carry on from where we left off which is what everybody was hoping would happen.
Everyone is on a bit of a downer about United at the moment because of recent dropped points, but we are actually on a run of W12, D6, L1 in the last 19 league games. That is more than decent, and lets not forget that we had pretty much zero pre-season which probably cost us some points & early momentum too.
As far as form is concerned I don't think we have managed to hit the heights of that 6 game run where we won each of them by 3 clear goals, but then again this is a very difficult season with severe fixture congestion. I was predicting months back that the quality of football would suffer because of that, and I do think that it has been a major factor for every team. We are rotating the team and grinding out results, as expected.
Which great manager is going to produce this 'well drilled attacking football' out of interest and more to the point what is well drilled attacking football? Can you define it?Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
Heard it every year for nearly a decade mate. 'this time is different' 'mourinho guarantees success' ' lvg is a modern manager' blah blah. We are better now than we have been in a long timeDon't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
You make good points and I won't disagree with you. It certainly has been a tough season to accurately gauge and its hard to think of many (any?) classic matches so far. Obviously empty stadiums contributes massively to that. This perhaps counters my original point about overall quality in the league, but I do still feel that the overall strength in depth is a little stronger than we've seen before.I'm with you on the bolded parts. That's probably my reasoning on why I don't think the league is any stronger than in previous seasons. I've watched a lot of football this season and more often than not it's been a slogfest. I'll comment on us because I very rarely miss a game but from what I've seen whenever we've dropped points it's not because the other team is better than us but more often than not it's because our own standards have dropped which is to be expected playing so many games on the spin. It certainly feels like death by football this season.
Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
Just because you can't see the wood for the trees, doesn't mean no-one else can.Starting to look like you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
The whole well drilled attacking football befitting off the club, I don't even know what that means. We pretty much attack every game. We would defo he very high up on the attacking stats during a game, as well as top scorers in the league and have been scoring in Europe as well.
Fair enough, after 7 years of it, it does get tiring, and I agree we're better now too. I just ask myself the question, is there a ceiling to how far we can go, playing the way we are now, and I strongly believe the answer is yes. Our squad is very strong now, yet we still have the same flaws that have been there since the beginning with Ole. I just question how far we will go under him.Heard it every year for nearly a decade mate. 'this time is different' 'mourinho guarantees success' ' lvg is a modern manager' blah blah. We are better now than we have been in a long time
Just because you can't see the wood for the trees, doesn't mean no-one else can.
Do we control matches? No. Do we build up from the back easily? No. Are we abnormally heavily reliant on individual brilliance every match regardless of opponent strength? Yes.
You can delude yourself if you want, but those are not the traits of a top side/club. Hence why we won't be winning anything significant until that changes.
"Well drilled attacking football" does not sound very creative.Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
Nagelsmann for one. His Leipzig team, on a fraction of our budget showed us up this season. Let's not act like there isn't a league full of managers better than Ole for a start though.Which great manager is going to produce this 'well drilled attacking football' out of interest and more to the point what is well drilled attacking football? Can you define it?
I'm not trying to be creative, just stating the fact that we're not a well drilled attacking side in the slightest under Ole."Well drilled attacking football" does not sound very creative.
I will only add that we did not bottle the restart to come from 6th to 3rd.
If you seriously believe we share anything in common with the top sides in Europe, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. We are miles off them.Individual brilliance again
Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.
City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.
As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
You're calling me infantile, with your name calling, very mature.Why do we put up with these infantile people and their nonsense?
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Yes it is.Individual brilliance again
Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.
City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.
As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
Every few weeks there's a new buzz word it seems.Individual brilliance again
Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.
City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.
As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
'Well drilled' seems to be the new one.Every few weeks there's a new buzz word it seems.
It's an undeniable fact. What sides that consistently competes/wins the top trophies isn't 'well drilled'? Your counter point hanging on the greatest manager of all time isn't very solid, especially when even he lost to Guardiola's Barca twice.'Well drilled' seems to be the new one.
I bet these posters hated the 12/13 season with the 'individual brilliance' of Van Persie, fuming with Cantona in the 90s and demanded Ferguson out when Ronaldo was firing us to the double in 08.
My point was about individual brilliance. Our best sides have always had it, all the top sides do. Do you think Barca would have beaten us without Messi?It's an undeniable fact. What sides that consistently competes/wins the top trophies isn't 'well drilled'? Your counter point hanging on the greatest manager of all time isn't very solid, especially when even he lost to Guardiola's Barca twice.
I didn't hate the 12/13 season no, but it was easy to see where it was going. 08 season we played amazing football at times (not like 06/07 though), no idea why you brought that season up. In contrast I didn't hate LVG's time here at all. He tried to create a whole new identity for us, it was always going to take a longer time than he got. We was clearly extensively drilled under him, our ceiling would have been high had he achieved it.
Probably yeah. It would have been more even the first time, with us having Ronaldo, but the 2nd time, their team was far superior.My point was about individual brilliance. Our best sides have always had it, all the top sides do. Do you think Barca would have beaten us without Messi?
The 'well drilled' is just an observation that it was said a few times yesterday and now cropping up elsewhere. The absolute last thing I'd want for us is a brand of LVGs football back, the most boring football I've ever known us play. The guy ruined us.
Can we safely assume the big clubs will struggle more this season than others because covid condensed the schedule and they are in more competitions?But which teams have actually got stronger? I'd argue only Westham AV and possibly Everton whereas teams like SU, Liverpool and WBA definitely aren't. Teams like Spurs, Chelsea (under Lampard), Arsenal, Southampton, Wolves haven't improved on last seasons form and the rest of the make up numbers teams are still doing just that. Leicester and ourselves are a constant, Leeds just plays suicidal football.
Just because mid/lower table clubs are taking points off the big boys doesn't mean they've improved and my own personal opinion is that standards are on power with previous seasons with the exception of the bigger clubs which has seen a fall on what's expected of them as a club.
Barca didn’t play clueless football and then Messi just smacked it in from 20 yards. Not from my memory anyway.My point was about individual brilliance. Our best sides have always had it, all the top sides do. Do you think Barca would have beaten us without Messi?
The 'well drilled' is just an observation that it was said a few times yesterday and now cropping up elsewhere. The absolute last thing I'd want for us is a brand of LVGs football back, the most boring football I've ever known us play. The guy ruined us.
Isnt that what we're doing? Spunking lots of money when we have a bad year?Ole wasn't hired to win the league the first couple seasons, he is rebuilding the squad and the club.
Look at the academy, plenty more promising youngsters brought in, i think the future looks very bright.
Also the squad is more likeable, younger and more hungry players who atleast seems to want to be here not just for the money. Most of them atleast.
Personally i hope he gets a long term contract. Am not saying this because i'm Norwegian, i was totally against him even becoming caretaker, it honestly pissed me right off.
I can see the changes he's doing and what he's planning for the future, and i like it.
We've been through a series of shit managers since SAF, and a proper rebuild was needed. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
And as a bonus we're in a good position in the league.
People need to stop being so short sighted, i seriously think some of you would be better off by changing to support PSG or City, just spunk out 400M on players if you have a bad year, and you'll be fine.
Not saying that to pretend i think i'm a better supporter, i just think many of you are unrealistic with the expectations after what Moyes, LvG and Mourinho did to our club.
Not really. Big clubs have plenty of cover.Can we safely assume the big clubs will struggle more this season than others because covid condensed the schedule and they are in more competitions?
The fans and media talk about them, doesn't mean the club will buy both.Isnt that what we're doing? Spunking lots of money when we have a bad year?
Already talk about sancho and haaland.
Oh wait. It's ole. Its a rebuild
If you seriously believe we share anything in common with the top sides in Europe, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. We are miles off them.
You can't be serious.It's an undeniable fact. What sides that consistently competes/wins the top trophies isn't 'well drilled'? Your counter point hanging on the greatest manager of all time isn't very solid, especially when even he lost to Guardiola's Barca twice.
I didn't hate the 12/13 season no, but it was easy to see where it was going. 08 season we played amazing football at times (not like 06/07 though), no idea why you brought that season up. In contrast I didn't hate LVG's time here at all. He tried to create a whole new identity for us, it was always going to take a longer time than he got. We was clearly extensively drilled under him, our ceiling would have been high had he achieved it.
You want us to re appoint LVG then? All of the above you mention is very much LVG territory.Nagelsmann for one. His Leipzig team, on a fraction of our budget showed us up this season. Let's not act like there isn't a league full of managers better than Ole for a start though.
Yes. It's simple.
1) Being able to calmly control matches in each phase, through being extensively drilled in most scenarios that come up in a match. LVG showed us this whilst he was here.
2) Taking the minimum number of touches on the ball, moving the ball from side to side to expose the opponent.
3) Pressing high up as soon as we've lost the ball in the opponents half, forcing the turnover, retrieving the ball asap.
4) Not seeing players making the same mistakes over and over again every match, like they've been neuralyzed.
5) Each player in the squad knowing their role inside out, so the subs can slot in seamlessly.
6) Not being reliant on individual brilliance vs. even the lowest of opponents.
That to me, is the core of a well drilled attacking side.
All things we do not see, and have never saw under Ole.