Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


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RedSky

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I honestly like in general how many people supporting Ole are the first ones who tries to lower the expectations and tell everyone we're not as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I guess since you support a manager you'll be certain he's capable of landing a big prize thus you support him but it seems the opposite, they believe top 4 is good enough progress and we're not capable of winning the league any time soon, so that if we win it's a massive overachievement and if we don't and get top 4 it's more in the line. Weirdest aspect of supporting a manager I have seen if you ask me. Sure some aren't that but there're definitely many of Ole supporters here who are the first to jump in to control any high expectations.
Think for me its being a realist. Right now we don't have the squad to contend with Liverpool or City, that's my opinion others disagree. But we should be closing the gap and improving with every season under Ole and thus the bar for each season is raised. It should be a natural progression to rise higher and do better. This season, top 3 with a 70+ point finish and a trophy (can be the league cup) is my personal bar, if we exceed expectations then fantastic. If we fall well below then the red pen will come out and it'll probably be time to look elsewhere.

I just don't think you can flick a switch and argue that money spent should guarantee success and I also believe that the board simply don't do enough business to allow a fast transition and thats also part of the issue. We have far too much dead weight still in the squad, to put it into perspective. I mean lets look at our defenders as an example:
Total Minutes at United​
Player​
17191​
Jones​
14550​
Shaw​
11354​
Lindelof​
9155​
Rojo​
6709​
Bailly​
6492​
Maguire​
5510​
AWB​
2685​
Williams​
1269​
Tuanzebe​
1128​
Fosu-Mensah​
814​
Telles​

Maguire has almost equalled Baillys total minutes in a season and a half. Bailly himself is already 26 years old and has completed just over 10k minutes of senior football, which is terrible. We've then got Rojo who hasn't even managed 10k minutes for us despite this being his 7th season at United. Jones is in his 10th season at United and is now a guaranteed sick note and stealing a wage. Honestly, given the money we've spent its bewildering that we're left with this list of defenders. Our CB depth is honestly appalling.
 

OleBoiii

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Only Liverpool are better than us and any other team at the moment. City are extremely overrated here based on their past form 2 years ago, Chelsea have been underwhelming for the money they had spent and Spurs have good attack but rubbish defense and terrible midfield. 2nd/3rd should be a good target to achieve this season.
"Target" and "minimum requirement" are 2 different things. Personally, I think 1st should be the target.

But why would anyone support a manager when he doesn't even believe he can win the league with these players ? I mean face it or not, this is the squad we're going to have for the few next years and it's not going to change drastically. If you support a manager, you should absolutely believe he'll win us the league. Supporting the manager by handling expectations and telling people to be content with top 4 is just a pretty weird perspective when I think about it.
Apart from outliers(that typically collapse the very next season), you don't win the league if there are one or more teams that are clearly better on paper.

It's not unrealistic to expect 2-3 more solid signings. In fact, it should have happened this summer. Liverpool have 5 "Brunos", but only one them is homegrown. Why is it unreasonable for us to expect 2 more players of Bruno's quality?
 

el3mel

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"Target" and "minimum requirement" are 2 different things. Personally, I think 1st should be the target.



Apart from outliers(that typically collapse the very next season), you don't win the league if there are one or more teams that are clearly better on paper.

It's not unrealistic to expect 2-3 more solid signings. In fact, it should have happened this summer. Liverpool have 5 "Brunos", but only one them is homegrown. Why is it unreasonable for us to expect 2 more players of Bruno's quality?
We are inferior to only one team to me this season which is Liverpool, there is no other team I look at and think "yeah, they are much better than us in terms of squad or results".

You also don't win the league by just having the best team on paper. It's definitely possible to win a league title while being inferior to one other team in the league and we have seen it several times. I see this as a defeatist mentality, definitely not the kind of mentality we learned from Fergie. This squad might be inferior to Liverpool but we aren't facing Liverpool every day. 90% of our games in the season are against teams that have less than half the quality we have. You win the league by being consistent in beating such teams, not by just defeating your main rival home and away and just that. We can lose to Liverpool two times and still win it all (we did it previously, actually), so, I don't get this notion.

Finally, who said we aren't going to make 2 or 3 more signings in the same caliber of Bruno? It's just that the current squad isn't going to change drastically over the next few years. Martial and Rashford will be present and will play ton of games, and I think Rashford will stay as a starter for several next years. The core of the squad will remain mostly the same so it's time to squeeze some more of these players. Many of them are at their prime or just starting it.

Still, I don't see any logic in supporting a manager by telling everyone to lower their expectations of the team. You support a manager then you expect him to deliver the big trophies, otherwise what's the point of dropping expectations to support the manager?
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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We are inferior to only one team to me this season which is Liverpool, there is no other team I look at and think "yeah, they are much better than us in terms of squad or results".

You also don't win the league by just having the best team on paper. It's definitely possible to win a league title while being inferior to one other team in the league and we have seen it several times. I see this as a defeatist mentality, definitely not the kind of mentality we learned from Fergie. This squad might be inferior to Liverpool but we aren't facing Liverpool every day. 90% of our games in the season are against teams that have less than half the quality we have. You win the league by being consistent in beating such teams, not by just defeating your main rival home and away and just that. We can lose to Liverpool two times and still win it all (we did it previously, actually), so, I don't get this notion.

Finally, who said we aren't going to make 2 or 3 more signings in the same caliber of Bruno? It's just that the current squad isn't going to change drastically over the next few years. Martial and Rashford will be present and will play ton of games, and I think Rashford will stay as a starter for several next years. The core of the squad will remain mostly the same so it's time to squeeze some more of these players. Many of them are at their prime or just starting it.

Still, I don't see any logic in supporting a manager by telling everyone to lower their expectations of the team. You support a manager then you expect him to deliver the big trophies, otherwise what's the point of dropping expectations to support the manager?
I think by the time we get a DM CB and RW/ST that the caf agrees we need, we'd have fixed the holes in the squad but Liverpool will still have a stronger side than us on paper. Maybe even Chelsea and City as well given their willingness to spend and improve. Should we still not expect a title win if that's the case? Some will and some won't but I imagine if we don't win it the excuse will still be we don't have the squad yet. Should we keep waiting for when we have the best squad on paper like the last 7 years or so before saying we should be winning the league?
 

Flexdegea

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With opportunity to go level at top when we've played same number of games as everyone else.

I could be wrong here but I think the barometer for Ole here is he should he ahead at the moment with still 2 games to play, as it seems being behind with this handicap is not good enough, having same amount of games played as the rest doesn't matter as he is 9th
 

Flexdegea

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I honestly like in general how many people supporting Ole are the first ones who try to lower the expectations and tell everyone we're not as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I guess since you support a manager you'll be certain he's capable of landing a big prize thus you support him but it seems the opposite, they believe top 4 is good enough progress and we're not capable of winning the league any time soon, so that if we win it's a massive overachievement and if we don't and get top 4 it's more in the line. Weirdest aspect of supporting a manager I have seen if you ask me. Sure some aren't that but there're definitely many of Ole supporters here who are the first to jump in to control any high expectations.

You are confusing expectations with your personal emotional state.

We all want the same things we just think this way is right way to go about than your way, all things considered with the club over the years.

People's emotional side shows more to he honest when you look at some of the of some of the posts in here and reactions to anything that happens.
 

justsomebloke

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I honestly like in general how many people supporting Ole are the first ones who try to lower the expectations and tell everyone we're not as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I guess since you support a manager you'll be certain he's capable of landing a big prize thus you support him but it seems the opposite, they believe top 4 is good enough progress and we're not capable of winning the league any time soon, so that if we win it's a massive overachievement and if we don't and get top 4 it's more in the line. Weirdest aspect of supporting a manager I have seen if you ask me. Sure some aren't that but there're definitely many of Ole supporters here who are the first to jump in to control any high expectations.
That's actually very revealing. You assume that the only relevant measure of a United manager is his ability to win titles right now. As you will see however, the gist of most people's argument is that the club now needs to focus on building what we haven't had since 2012/13, namely a team good enough to actually have realistic chance of competing for the title - and young enough to stay that way for quite some time. Also, that we're not currently at that point. And the reason why people tend to react against high immediate expectations is that they understand that this attitude of constant expectation, impatience and entitlement is a threat against that aim, because if the club starts acting responsive to those expectations, it would set back this vital process and lead to the wrong decisions. Like signing Cristiano Ronaldo, or some shit like that.

If we challenge for the title this year, it's because other teams are struggling and we overachieve, not because we have a good enough squad. Obviously if we do, that'd be nice. But it's not important to me. What's important to me is that a year or two from now, we have a team that is good enough to challenge even if Liverpool and City are having great years. If it's under Solskjær that's nice, if not, it's also good. What matters is that we stick to that plan, whoever the manager is.
 

OrcaFat

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None of those represented similar starting positions, nor similar approaches. Of course, United could have tried to just make a handful of high-profile player purchases, bring in an experienced manager and gone for broke with that. In other words, try the same thing they did with LvG and Mourinho. You know, the same Mourinho who failed to do in United what he did in Chelsea, which possibly tells you something about the quality of the respective squads involved.

Instead, they opted to rebuild with the aim of creating a team with an emphasis on young players, that could truly contend 2-3 seasons ahead, and continue to do so for several seasons. In my book, that was the right choice. And if you're taking that path, it takes time.
Good post. Made the post you were replying to look just as daft as it was.
 

OrcaFat

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Utterly pointless post whilst a game is still being played. Desperation.
It’s all pointless though innit?

Look at it this way, IF we win our games in hand, we will be clear in second, two points off top. That’s not a sacking situation for any club or manager in the world.
 

OrcaFat

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That's what I was thinking. Pretty weird how people keep talking about the Burnley match if it's going to be played tomorrow. Best not to put it in consideration till its time comes, because it's not any time soon.
Yeah but you have to consider number of games played, regardless when the game in hand will be scheduled. If we are 9th having played two games fewer than most teams, it is not intelligent to conclude we are 9th best team, is it?
 

Bobcat

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I honestly like in general how many people supporting Ole are the first ones who try to lower the expectations and tell everyone we're not as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I guess since you support a manager you'll be certain he's capable of landing a big prize thus you support him but it seems the opposite, they believe top 4 is good enough progress and we're not capable of winning the league any time soon, so that if we win it's a massive overachievement and if we don't and get top 4 it's more in the line. Weirdest aspect of supporting a manager I have seen if you ask me. Sure some aren't that but there're definitely many of Ole supporters here who are the first to jump in to control any high expectations.
Expectations change over time and of course the context of the league matters. When he first got here i think most people had zero expectations, they were just glad to get rid of Jose and thought it was fun to have a ex player in the hotseat. Before last season, both the caf and pundits were split about whether or not we would make top 4, we did, and this season i think most people expected a guaranteed top 4 finish and some even mentioning a league challenge. I personally thought the latter was way optimistic, but considering how inconsistent everyone has been, i realize its not impossible. So i dont understand where you get it from that expectations under Ole have been lowered, if anything the bar is being set higher at a steady pace.

You also have to remember that we had a worse summer window than pretty much all of our closest rivals, so its not like the balance of power swung in our favor this season. If we had signed Sancho and Haaland this summer, then of course the expectations would have been much higher

Another thing, which i think i more important than results in the here and now, is the long term strategy in terms of the rebuild. Afters Joses meltdown season, it was clear to anyone we needed a proper reboot. So far hes sacrificed short term gains in favor of long term goals and i fully expect him to keep doing that. For example if he went out and signed a bunch of 29-30 year olds in a pig headed effort to push for the title, i would have been massively disappointed

My baseline expectation for Ole is simply that we keep improving, in terms of results, in terms of performances and most importantly in terms of crafting a squad that is capable of challenging for the big trophies. Imo, we are still two first XI players short of talking about a title challenge. We need a quality deep playmaker that can help us transition and play out from the back and we need a proper CF to lead the line
 

Flexdegea

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That's actually very revealing. You assume that the only relevant measure of a United manager is his ability to win titles right now. As you will see however, the gist of most people's argument is that the club now needs to focus on building what we haven't had since 2012/13, namely a team good enough to actually have realistic chance of competing for the title - and young enough to stay that way for quite some time. Also, that we're not currently at that point. And the reason why people tend to react against high immediate expectations is that they understand that this attitude of constant expectation, impatience and entitlement is a threat against that aim, because if the club starts acting responsive to those expectations, it would set back this vital process and lead to the wrong decisions. Like signing Cristiano Ronaldo, or some shit like that.

If we challenge for the title this year, it's because other teams are struggling and we overachieve, not because we have a good enough squad. Obviously if we do, that'd be nice. But it's not important to me. What's important to me is that a year or two from now, we have a team that is good enough to challenge even if Liverpool and City are having great years. If it's under Solskjær that's nice, if not, it's also good. What matters is that we stick to that plan, whoever the manager is.

He's setting his own expectations and unrealistic opinions of the squad as proof as the manager not up to it.


The fact he thinks Liverpool only squad team better than us is bonkers. And even then they been miles out in front last 2 seasons past.

To answer his question I do think Ole could win us a league if we get another 2 windows but I've said at the moment don't think the squad is good enough. The defence is fragile at best, midfield has a hole as well, and we literally don't have a performing centre forward at the moment. No doubt someone going to say we could win a league with another manager after 2 windows but Ole building this team up so he deserves a crack to completing his task unless otherwise.


If we were to win it this year it would be a massive over achievement.


Don't get me wrong I think we have a much improved squad but we've a lot of young players too and the inconsistency sometimes up front shows, and shows even bad when we have a centre forward he hasn't showed at all this season. I think weve done well all considering to be close to the action and games in hand.
 

wolvored

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"Target" and "minimum requirement" are 2 different things. Personally, I think 1st should be the target.



Apart from outliers(that typically collapse the very next season), you don't win the league if there are one or more teams that are clearly better on paper.

It's not unrealistic to expect 2-3 more solid signings. In fact, it should have happened this summer. Liverpool have 5 "Brunos", but only one them is homegrown. Why is it unreasonable for us to expect 2 more players of Bruno's quality?
That's were we are lacking. We have one player that performs to a very good level 90% of the time. The rest are really way too inconsistent or can't get to the same level. Is this on coaching or are they that poor no coaching will improve them to reach that level? I think it's more on coaching as on paper we have a strong squad
 
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wolvored

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Expectations change over time and of course the context of the league matters. When he first got here i think most people had zero expectations, they were just glad to get rid of Jose and thought it was fun to have a ex player in the hotseat. Before last season, both the caf and pundits were split about whether or not we would make top 4, we did, and this season i think most people expected a guaranteed top 4 finish and some even mentioning a league challenge. I personally thought the latter was way optimistic, but considering how inconsistent everyone has been, i realize its not impossible. So i dont understand where you get it from that expectations under Ole have been lowered, if anything the bar is being set higher at a steady pace.

You also have to remember that we had a worse summer window than pretty much all of our closest rivals, so its not like the balance of power swung in our favor this season. If we had signed Sancho and Haaland this summer, then of course the expectations would have been much higher

Another thing, which i think i more important than results in the here and now, is the long term strategy in terms of the rebuild. Afters Joses meltdown season, it was clear to anyone we needed a proper reboot. So far hes sacrificed short term gains in favor of long term goals and i fully expect him to keep doing that. For example if he went out and signed a bunch of 29-30 year olds in a pig headed effort to push for the title, i would have been massively disappointed

My baseline expectation for Ole is simply that we keep improving, in terms of results, in terms of performances and most importantly in terms of crafting a squad that is capable of challenging for the big trophies. Imo, we are still two first XI players short of talking about a title challenge. We need a quality deep playmaker that can help us transition and play out from the back and we need a proper CF to lead the line
So how long do we keep accepting mediocrity then before the big title push? 2-3-4 more seasons? If any manager who manages a club this size can't push for the title after 2 seasons and £300 million spent then there is something lacking in the manager and coaching staff. I'm not saying he has to win it this season, but football orientated owners would ask for at least 2nd and much closer to first as a minimum aim with an high hope we can win it.
With these owners who have no football ambition top 4 which is easily achievable with this squad will keep Ole in his job.
 
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justsomebloke

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We are inferior to only one team to me this season which is Liverpool, there is no other team I look at and think "yeah, they are much better than us in terms of squad or results".

You also don't win the league by just having the best team on paper. It's definitely possible to win a league title while being inferior to one other team in the league and we have seen it several times. I see this as a defeatist mentality, definitely not the kind of mentality we learned from Fergie. This squad might be inferior to Liverpool but we aren't facing Liverpool every day. 90% of our games in the season are against teams that have less than half the quality we have. You win the league by being consistent in beating such teams, not by just defeating your main rival home and away and just that. We can lose to Liverpool two times and still win it all (we did it previously, actually), so, I don't get this notion.

Finally, who said we aren't going to make 2 or 3 more signings in the same caliber of Bruno? It's just that the current squad isn't going to change drastically over the next few years. Martial and Rashford will be present and will play ton of games, and I think Rashford will stay as a starter for several next years. The core of the squad will remain mostly the same so it's time to squeeze some more of these players. Many of them are at their prime or just starting it.

Still, I don't see any logic in supporting a manager by telling everyone to lower their expectations of the team. You support a manager then you expect him to deliver the big trophies, otherwise what's the point of dropping expectations to support the manager?
Seriously? Just look at the squads.

Do we have a central defence pairing of title quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea probably does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have a pair of full backs capable of being vital cogs in the attack? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have at least one central midfielder capable of dominating defensively and of contributing significantly to the attack? Liverpool does. Chelsea does. City does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have a natural right forward/winger of elite quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does.
Do we have at least one striker who would be regarded by pretty much everyone as being good enough for a top team? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does. Tottenham does.
If you look at our secondary options, are those as good as the ones Liverpool, City or Chelsea have?

Your statement about "defeatist mentality" to me sums up everything that is wrong with this team's fanbase - a sense of blind entitlement that confuses the exceptional with the normal, and expects - demands, even - the sort of miracles the real world isn't going to give us just because SAF occasionally did. Telling you to lower your expectations has got nothing to do with supporting this or that manager. It's just basic common sense.
 

troylocker

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Best job since Mourinho, since he finished second and won two actual trophies.
Would you welcome Mourinho-ball back here (winning a League Cup and maybe an EL-title) over what we have with Ole now, not knowing 100% if he's good enough to get us back to winning trophies. I sure wouldn't!
It literally hurts me eyes to watch Spurs play football now.
 

Bobcat

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So how long do we keep accepting mediocrity then before the big title push? 2-3-4 more seasons? If any manager who manages a club this size can't push for the title after 2 seasons and £300 million spent then there is something lacking in the manager and coaching staff. I'm not saying he has to win it this season, but football orientated owners would ask for at least 2nd and much closer to first as a minimum aim with an high hope we can win it.
With these owners who have no football ambition top 4 which is easily achievable with this squad will keep Ole in his job.
To put it this way. I'd much rather "accept mediocrity" for another 3 years if it meant we built the foundations of a truly great squad, than to have another Jose kind of situation where a manager goes for broke and makes a bunch of short-sighted, instant impact types of signings (Zlatan, Sanchez, Matic etc). To use a silly anecdote: You get home famished, you look into the fridge and there is a raw chicken. Now you could devour that bad boy raw to sate your hunger. You will probably regret it later when you get the shits, but at least your not hungry. Or you could cook a nice meal. It takes longer, but is usually worth it

And the size of the club is not really relevant. At all. Yes we have more fans and more money than most other clubs, but that alone wont win you any titles
 

VP89

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To put it this way. I'd much rather "accept mediocrity" for another 3 years if it meant we built the foundations of a truly great squad, than to have another Jose kind of situation where a manager goes for broke and makes a bunch of short-sighted, instant impact types of signings (Zlatan, Sanchez, Matic etc). To use a silly anecdote: You get home famished, you look into the fridge and there is a raw chicken. Now you could devour that bad boy raw to sate your hunger. You will probably regret it later when you get the shits, but at least your not hungry. Or you could cook a nice meal. It takes longer, but is usually worth it

And the size of the club is not really relevant. At all. Yes we have more fans and more money than most other clubs, but that alone wont win you any titles
But no one is suggesting ditching Ole for a Jose type short sighted manager? The names bouncing around are Nagelsmann, Poch, Rose, Hassenhuttle. Not Conte, Allegri, Jose.
 

justsomebloke

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So how long do we keep accepting mediocrity then before the big title push? 2-3-4 more seasons? If any manager who manages a club this size can't push for the title after 2 seasons and £300 million spent then there is something lacking in the manager and coaching staff. I'm not saying he has to win it this season, but football orientated owners would ask for at least 2nd and much closer to first as a minimum aim with an high hope we can win it.
With these owners who have no football ambition top 4 which is easily achievable with this squad will keep Ole in his job.
"It's been two years, where's my silverware? Because this is United, and you know, we've paid a lot of money." ;)

How long? A bit longer. It depends on what's achieved in transfer windows to come. We're doing a good deal better than mediocrity, I'd say.

I think it would be wrong to set defined expectations in terms of achieving specific positions. It's not what matters at this stage.

And, you don't get anywhere by simply posing demands on managers, as if they'll perform miracles if you do. You get somewhere by building a team that is actually good enough to deliver the results you want. Hence, that should be the main focus, not where we finish this season. I don't see why we would expect to finish second this year. There are at least three teams with obviously better squads than we have.
 

Longshanks

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I honestly like in general how many people supporting Ole are the first ones who try to lower the expectations and tell everyone we're not as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I guess since you support a manager you'll be certain he's capable of landing a big prize thus you support him but it seems the opposite, they believe top 4 is good enough progress and we're not capable of winning the league any time soon, so that if we win it's a massive overachievement and if we don't and get top 4 it's more in the line. Weirdest aspect of supporting a manager I have seen if you ask me. Sure some aren't that but there're definitely many of Ole supporters here who are the first to jump in to control any high expectations.
Because that is the expectation for this season, next season if there is some investment in the playing squad in the summer than a title challenge would be the expectation.

The expectation is always to win titles, but there is no quick hit quick fix. The failures of the last 3/4 managers left the squad a mess with no clear style and full of bad attitudes. Ole is attempting to overhaul that damage and take us back to our roots a young, talented squad playing progressive attacking football.

Ole warned that it could take time and there would be ups and downs along the way but that there's is still a minimum expectation to keep to (top 4).

We are a better side now than what we were at this point last season so there is obvious progress the playing style has changed and we are now more progressive and attack minded than we have been since SAF.

I dont understand this idea that we have to challenge for the title this season? Before last season alot of people on this forum were saying the squad is barely good enough for top 10, and now after one good signing (bruno) it's a title winning squad and Ole is at fault if we dont challenge for the title? So is Ole a genius for taking a poor squad to 3rd place or is he useless for not fulfilling with a title winning squad, you cant have it both ways just to fit the agenda.

Ole has made plenty of mistakes along the way no doubt but we are still on the right path and achieving what we need to as long as that continues then I'm behind him, but it's not because my expectations have lowered it's because I'm realistic and understand it's a long project to gives us hopefully a more sustainable future. Much like LVG was a project he was trying to change alot and bring young players through but ultimately he missed the minimum expectation and was sacked for it, it's no different for Ole.
 

justsomebloke

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But no one is suggesting ditching Ole for a Jose type short sighted manager? The names bouncing around are Nagelsmann, Poch, Rose, Hassenhuttle. Not Conte, Allegri, Jose.
Ok, but then why? It doesn't help hiring a long-term manager if what he's hired to deliver is more dramatically good short-term results than OGS. And if you're going to give the new manager the same amount of patience as you're prepared to give OGS to build a team, why fire OGS because of short-term results? If anything, you'll need to give a new manager more time, because he's not going to have exactly the same ideas as OGS on personnell needs and style of play. To an extent, you're starting over. And we're actually not even really getting bad results. At the very least, it's too early to tell for this season.

If it's not about the short term results, then it's about whether you're advancing or setting back the process by changing the manager right now. A sensible approach to that is IMO that you don't do it unless you've got clear indications that things are no longer moving in the right direction. It may very well be that we reach that point where it's clear that OGS has taken us so far and is unlikely to take us much further, but I don't think we're there now.
 

Bobcat

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But no one is suggesting ditching Ole for a Jose type short sighted manager? The names bouncing around are Nagelsmann, Poch, Rose, Hassenhuttle. Not Conte, Allegri, Jose.
He implied a title challenge after two seasons was to be expected, and to get that you need the latter category of managers. Nagelsmann, Rose and Hassenhuttle are all unavilable right now and Poch i think is incredibly overrated on here.

No one is suggesting "Ole for all eternity", the question is if we should sack him now, which imo would be a bad idea
 

b82REZ

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Seriously? Just look at the squads.

Do we have a central defence pairing of title quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea probably does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have a pair of full backs capable of being vital cogs in the attack? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have at least one central midfielder capable of dominating defensively and of contributing significantly to the attack? Liverpool does. Chelsea does. City does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have a natural right forward/winger of elite quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does.
Do we have at least one striker who would be regarded by pretty much everyone as being good enough for a top team? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does. Tottenham does.
If you look at our secondary options, are those as good as the ones Liverpool, City or Chelsea have?

Your statement about "defeatist mentality" to me sums up everything that is wrong with this team's fanbase - a sense of blind entitlement that confuses the exceptional with the normal, and expects - demands, even - the sort of miracles the real world isn't going to give us just because SAF occasionally did. Telling you to lower your expectations has got nothing to do with supporting this or that manager. It's just basic common sense.
Wow, never seen so many excuses to pardon the squad the manager is building.

Defence - after the money the manager chose to invest in this area we most certainly should be considered as one of the strongest. The reality is it isn't, but it was the manager that chose to blow a world record sum on a slightly above average defender who is going to need another big money signing next to him to "get the best out of him".

Midfield - widely regarded as our strongest position. Certainly stronger than Spurs, and better than Liverpool on paper. The difference being the Liverpool midfielders look better because they are used properly, rather than being shifted around or rotated constantly.

Attack - other than Kane and Aguero I wouldn't say any team has a top striker. Firminio is a workhorse and is certainly weaker as a goalscorer than our attackers. While Martial and Rashford blow hot and cold they are better goal scorers than their scouse counterpart.

What's happened here is you've lowered your expectations, whether to excuse the manager or as a coping mechanism and you're expecting others to agree with your very biased opinions of ours and our rivals squads.

It was widely agreed at the back end of last season we were getting closer to the top squads in the league and needed signings for depth to compete. Ole was regularly excused for having to rely on Lingard, so now we've done that the goalposts have been shifted, once again to excuse the tepid, uninspired performances we've witnessed throughout the season. The new narrative seems to be that the board let him down for not blowing 120m on Sancho or getting Upemecano to unleash the true potential of Maguire. The reality is the manager absolutely should be getting much better performances out of a squad and players he's worked with for 2 years now.
 

VP89

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He implied a title challenge after two seasons was to be expected, and to get that you need the latter category of managers. Nagelsmann, Rose and Hassenhuttle are all unavilable right now and Poch i think is incredibly overrated on here.

No one is suggesting "Ole for all eternity", the question is if we should sack him now, which imo would be a bad idea
The only argument to sack him now is to bring Poch in. I don't think he's overrated here, I find more people critical of him as a potential suiter than those advocating him.

I'd only sack Ole right now if he was terrible relative to other teams, which he's not. But I'm classed as an Ole outer by definition, because I don't think he's the right long term manager for us.
 

lysglimt

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So how long do we keep accepting mediocrity then before the big title push? 2-3-4 more seasons? If any manager who manages a club this size can't push for the title after 2 seasons and £300 million spent then there is something lacking in the manager and coaching staff. I'm not saying he has to win it this season, but football orientated owners would ask for at least 2nd and much closer to first as a minimum aim with an high hope we can win it.
With these owners who have no football ambition top 4 which is easily achievable with this squad will keep Ole in his job.
Why do you think that ending 3rd in the hardest league in the world is mediocrity ? If we were the only club spending £300 million - I agree, we should be up there. But when OGS took charge, several teams had a serious headstart.

So what you are basically saying - is that if OGS in 2 years cant catch up with City and Liverpool - despite them also spending a LOT of money - he is not good enough. In order to do that - he not only has to be as good as Pep and Klopp - he has to be better. He has to make United improve so much more than City and Liverpool - and considering the general consensus is that Pep and Klopp arent if not the 2 best managers in the world - so at least top 5 - the question is, who is that good ?

And add to that - you talk about £300 million spend in 2 years. I agree - it's a fortune, but it's not really that much compared to our rivals - they have spent almost the same. City who had a head start, spent £150 million this summer, and the same amount last year.

Chelsea spent well over £200 million in one window. Even Spurs spent close to £100 million this summer. Arsenal in the last 2 seasons have spent £200 million - look where they are.

So to say that its easily achievable to finish top-4 - I am sorry, it's not. It's not easily achievable to beat either, City, Liverpool, Spurs or Chelsea - as well as all other teams. But of course I expect us to - but whoever finishes 5th, 6th and 7th - they are still a really good side.
 

justsomebloke

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Wow, never seen so many excuses to pardon the squad the manager is building.

It's not excuses. It's reality. And it holds regardless of who the manager is.

Defence - after the money the manager chose to invest in this area we most certainly should be considered as one of the strongest. The reality is it isn't, but it was the manager that chose to blow a world record sum on a slightly above average defender who is going to need another big money signing next to him to "get the best out of him".

"We've invested x amount of money, so by now all my dreams should have come true and they haven't so I'll insist they do"? Anyway, what we're discussing here is how strong the squad actually is, and I see you agree that it isn't as good as it needs to be to warrant the expectations you have for results. So, that's a tick.

Midfield - widely regarded as our strongest position. Certainly stronger than Spurs, and better than Liverpool on paper. The difference being the Liverpool midfielders look better because they are used properly, rather than being shifted around or rotated constantly.

I didn't write "midfield". I wrote "central midfielder capable of dominating defensively and of contributing significantly to the attack". Because all of these teams have that, and we don't.

Attack - other than Kane and Aguero I wouldn't say any team has a top striker. Firminio is a workhorse and is certainly weaker as a goalscorer than our attackers. While Martial and Rashford blow hot and cold they are better goal scorers than their scouse counterpart.

I didn't write "attack". I wrote "natural right forward/winger" and "striker". Because again, in these areas we are lacking what other top teams have.

What's happened here is you've lowered your expectations, whether to excuse the manager or as a coping mechanism and you're expecting others to agree with your very biased opinions of ours and our rivals squads.

No, what's happened here is I've pointed out a number of key areas where our squad is appreciably weaker than those of other top teams, and would be so regardless of who the manager is. In response to your level of expectation regardless of who the manager is.

It was widely agreed at the back end of last season we were getting closer to the top squads in the league and needed signings for depth to compete. Ole was regularly excused for having to rely on Lingard, so now we've done that the goalposts have been shifted, once again to excuse the tepid, uninspired performances we've witnessed throughout the season. The new narrative seems to be that the board let him down for not blowing 120m on Sancho or getting Upemecano to unleash the true potential of Maguire. The reality is the manager absolutely should be getting much better performances out of a squad and players he's worked with for 2 years now.

I don't think the goalposts have moved at all. Not for me at least. Maybe they have for you though, unless you were one of the few people who went on record in October being upbeat about what a great transfer window we had.
 

wolvored

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To all those that replied to me. I can see what you are getting at and at an Everton a Leicester, Spurs even Arsenal sized club that would be all well and good.
We are supposed to be one of the 'big boys' and in some eyes still think of us as 'the biggest club in the world'. The fact is we are a yoyo club that cant even make top 4 a gimme every year.
We used to slate Wengers Arsenal for celebrating making top 4. Now most 'Ole inners' are doing exactly the same. Do you think City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juve, PSG etc etc all the 'big clubs' around Europe would accept a timetable of 3-4-5 seasons before the new manager challenged for the title? Liverpool went down that road and it took them 30 years and how many managers to still get mediocrity after 3 years or more in he job.
Im not having a go at Ole here per se, im talking about any manager that manages Man Utd should be good enough to come in and turn things around after 2 years and a big influx of players, otherwise move on. Ole might pull a rabbit out of the hat and win or come close, but that should be expected imo.
 

b82REZ

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@justsomebloke What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy in the defence of the manager. Which you've continued to highlight magnificently.

You seem to be taking a holier than thou, I'm not being impatient stance. At what point will you accept the shortcomings of the manager rather than excusing him at every step? Why are there so many questions over the capabilities of the manager 2 years in? As I and others have pointed out to you, it doesn't take other clubs years to rejuvenate a squad and get back to winning silverware. Why is it some how seen as a badge of honour that you've lowered your standards for the club?

Being pedanticover me using attackers rather than specifically saying RW or striker suggests to me you don't really have a proper response to my rebuttal of your frankly ridiculous evaluation of the squads of the top 6 in comparison to our own.
 
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We can go second place now its finished. 2pts behind Liverpool. Oh the horrors. Oh the shame.
Well actually, if Villa win their games in hand we can go 3rd.

Do keep up.

And it’s no shame, the past couple of weeks in the Premier League have been very kind to us which is fecking brilliant. Let’s hope we capitalise now.
 
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It’s all pointless though innit?

Look at it this way, IF we win our games in hand, we will be clear in second, two points off top. That’s not a sacking situation for any club or manager in the world.
No @OrcaFat, look at it this way.. IF United and Villa win their games in hand, we’ll be 3rd.

Yes it’s pointless but the position now means a title challenge, even a weak one should be the aim. Stupid pointless is pointing to a position mid game.
 
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Do we have a central defence pairing of title quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea probably does.
This alone tells me how utterly blinkered you are. feck me, “Tottenham arguably does”... they have Eric Dier playing centre half. Chelsea play Zouma there. Stones is there for City.

And somehow this is still a reason for you to “excuse” Ole, a man who has spent almost 150m on his defence? 80m of it spent at CB.

What the feck are you smoking man?
 

b82REZ

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This alone tells me how utterly blinkered you are. feck me, “Tottenham arguably does”... they have Eric Dier playing centre half. Chelsea play Zouma there. Stones is there for City.

And somehow this is still a reason for you to “excuse” Ole, a man who has spent almost 150m on his defence? 80m of it spent at CB.

What the feck are you smoking man?
Look at the excuses he listed to my reply. Unbelievable delusion
 

Skåre Willoch

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This alone tells me how utterly blinkered you are. feck me, “Tottenham arguably does”... they have Eric Dier playing centre half. Chelsea play Zouma there. Stones is there for City.

And somehow this is still a reason for you to “excuse” Ole, a man who has spent almost 150m on his defence? 80m of it spent at CB.

What the feck are you smoking man?
City have Dias, Laporte, Aké and Stones. Two of them are great starters, the other two are great squad options.
 

RedSky

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To all those that replied to me. I can see what you are getting at and at an Everton a Leicester, Spurs even Arsenal sized club that would be all well and good.
We are supposed to be one of the 'big boys' and in some eyes still think of us as 'the biggest club in the world'. The fact is we are a yoyo club that cant even make top 4 a gimme every year.
We used to slate Wengers Arsenal for celebrating making top 4. Now most 'Ole inners' are doing exactly the same. Do you think City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juve, PSG etc etc all the 'big clubs' around Europe would accept a timetable of 3-4-5 seasons before the new manager challenged for the title? Liverpool went down that road and it took them 30 years and how many managers to still get mediocrity after 3 years or more in he job.
Im not having a go at Ole here per se, im talking about any manager that manages Man Utd should be good enough to come in and turn things around after 2 years and a big influx of players, otherwise move on. Ole might pull a rabbit out of the hat and win or come close, but that should be expected imo.
We've not had a big influx of players, that's the problem.
 

Flexdegea

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He implied a title challenge after two seasons was to be expected, and to get that you need the latter category of managers. Nagelsmann, Rose and Hassenhuttle are all unavilable right now and Poch i think is incredibly overrated on here.

No one is suggesting "Ole for all eternity", the question is if we should sack him now, which imo would be a bad idea

What I don't get with the he needs replaced calls.

No one available bar poch and the current manager not under threat. If you where you make a change be better suited to summer where you get pre season and get new targets in, unless the club in snowball mode.


Just seems foolish emotion talk to be constantly busting a nut for the manager to he sacked when he not close to it
 

Di Maria's angel

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That's actually very revealing. You assume that the only relevant measure of a United manager is his ability to win titles right now. As you will see however, the gist of most people's argument is that the club now needs to focus on building what we haven't had since 2012/13, namely a team good enough to actually have realistic chance of competing for the title - and young enough to stay that way for quite some time. Also, that we're not currently at that point. And the reason why people tend to react against high immediate expectations is that they understand that this attitude of constant expectation, impatience and entitlement is a threat against that aim, because if the club starts acting responsive to those expectations, it would set back this vital process and lead to the wrong decisions. Like signing Cristiano Ronaldo, or some shit like that.

If we challenge for the title this year, it's because other teams are struggling and we overachieve, not because we have a good enough squad. Obviously if we do, that'd be nice. But it's not important to me. What's important to me is that a year or two from now, we have a team that is good enough to challenge even if Liverpool and City are having great years. If it's under Solskjær that's nice, if not, it's also good. What matters is that we stick to that plan, whoever the manager is.
How long does it take to build a title challenging team and what are you basing that from?
 
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