The radical notion that women are people.
WWC23 | England v Spain - Spain win the World Cup - and Rubiales gets sacked
- Thread starter jojojo
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You can also find a place whose vibe is more to your liking.
woke
Well, the quote below is a good example. You say something that doesn't 100% align with the majority's opinion, and you get extremely exaggerated and ridiculous responses such as this one:
Btw, if anything, my argument thinks higher of women than those that don't share my views. I said Hermoso was on record, TWICE, stating that she didn't really care about the kiss and she was more than anything just happy about the world championship (as you should be), she was joking and giggling about it with her teammates, showing it to them etc., yet people ITT insisted that victims of abuse don't really know they are victims due to the shock factor or because they prefer to be in denial. Basically, finding a 33-year-old incapable of being self-aware enough to realize by herself if it was a big deal or not.
Reducing a fully capable smart and mature 33-year-old woman into a being that knows no better and needs to be told how to feel and what to think.
After being gaslighted by the entire world into thinking she was an abuse victim, and a victim of a power imbalance, she of course ended up making statements about it, again, blowing it up even more.
Btw, Rubiales didn't help, dudes a creepy fuk that decided it was a good idea to go on record and making up lies and trying to manipulate the truth. I'm just saying, this thing has been blown out of proportion.
I like it here, it's a football forum after all. I do raise an eyebrow every once in a while, when i dare entering threads about any world events outside of football, but i mainly just surf the football forum anyway.
I'm mainly stating the fact that this place doesn't really allow people with different opinions giving their insights on certain topics, which is why views in these types of threads are often so one sided.
That's not a fact though.
I guess my only problem with the "radical" opinion you quoted is that was quite clearly a wind up.
You are using a wind up comment as an example.
So maybe this can help me understand what you mean by radical opinions, I will list some of mine and you tell me if they are radical.
I am anti racism, anti sexism, anti bigotry.
I think human influenced climate change is a real thing.
I think the protection of wildlife and the expansion of wilderness areas to what they were 50 years ago is vitally important.
I think trickle down economics is a horrendously flawed idea
I think indigenous peoples around the world have been horrifically exploited by colonialism
I think there is a growing anti science problem in the world today
Are any of those classed as really radical beliefs?
btw i think you have highlighted an interesting angle for a thread.
New Rubiales statement, this time he starts well with a better apology but then ruins it all again by going on about consent etc
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ented-world-cup-final-kiss-with-jenni-hermoso
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ented-world-cup-final-kiss-with-jenni-hermoso
If anything, it's you denigrating her here, by assuming she's so easily swayed and pressured into a position on a subject. Basically she has no agency in your final paragraph.
And anyway, you keep simplifying the sequence of events into something that fits your story here. It's been explained many times over the past few pages that it's not like that.
I am also curious what the actual radical opinions in here are. You quoting some ironic statement doesn't quite constitute giving an example.
So far, if you're wondering why posters don't like you, it's probably primarily because you keep whining about your mistreatment while continuing to serve up poor takes. Well, as long as the latter continues, so will the criticism.
Some of the posts in this thread…..I feel incredibly sorry for the women in your lives. Horrible.
Several people have written critical comments without getting warning points, so it's perfectly possible to disagree. You're the one who didn't manage. Instead of reflecting on that, you take it as self evident that you're being persecuted. Is it possible that you're just a bad poster? No of course not, people are out to silence you for your opinions.
Why do you think the newbie forum is a thing? It's a sandbox for posters to prove that they are capable of at least some quality, to prove that they're someone people want in the main forum. In a football context, it's like the reserve team or trialists. Then, in recent years, newbies have been allowed to post a few comments in some sections of the main forum before promotion, but naturally they're on a tighter leash than promoted members.
If you keep writing really bad comments, then you'll end up banned. If you write a little bit better then you'll be able to stay around, but you will be stuck in the newbies forever. If you manage to write some relatively good comments then you'll be promoted. It's like this for everyone, you're not a victim, just step up.
I doubt she felt like an abuse victim at the reward ceremony. She'd just won a World Cup - I doubt if Rubiales was any more significant to her than a mosquito bite or any other irritating pest. She wanted to enjoy the party and I hope she had time to do just that.
People questioned Rubiales on his behaviour - he told them they were idiots. They asked him again - was that really the way he (her boss' boss) should act towards the player? That's when the 46 year old mature man with a massive amount of authority over the women's careers chose not to apologise to her for acting inappropriately and to the players for its impact on the media coverage. Instead he did a classic non-apology of the, "I'm sorry if other people were bothered by it," genre. Where was his self-awareness?
He tried to beg (or bully? - given his position of power) her to say that he did nothing wrong or inappropriate and it was all fine with her. When that failed, he tried to beg the other players and her family to get her to protect him. Why should she? He's the one who acted inappropriately. She probably doesn't feel obliged to help mosquitos and other pests either.
Our mature 33 year old woman didn't need to get gaslit by "the entire world" - she knew what she didn't want to do. She didn't want to spare Rubiales the embarrassment of an apology and that's why Rubiales got his press office to put out a statement claiming to come from her. I think most people would be pretty angry after that.
No one needed to convince her to be angry - Rubiales was using RFEF to remind her of every incident of bullying, harassment and inappropriate conduct. He got exactly what he deserved.
I’ve seen the video. I don’t think he was being perverted or that the kiss was sexual, but at the same time it’s not something I think he’d do to Sergio Ramos. A bit like the foot massage discussion in Pulp Fiction…. “Foot massage means nothing I give my mother a foot massage….. would you give a guy a foot massage”
The style of celebration and interaction was different and more touchy feels and I think he went with the flow of the moment. The kiss was also very “childlike” or “parental” and that’s the vibe I got from it and his dealing with the squad and probably what would offend me.
However once the player said she didn’t feel comfortable he should have apologised immediately.
Also there is a video of the player on the plane celebration with a photo of him kissing her on her phone clearly visible. So that made me wonder when her feeling of offence kicked in.. was it the next day, was it after other complained on her behalf?
I think this is more complicated than people realise. Because even the whole platonic kissing culture is different in Spain to say the U.K.
The style of celebration and interaction was different and more touchy feels and I think he went with the flow of the moment. The kiss was also very “childlike” or “parental” and that’s the vibe I got from it and his dealing with the squad and probably what would offend me.
However once the player said she didn’t feel comfortable he should have apologised immediately.
Also there is a video of the player on the plane celebration with a photo of him kissing her on her phone clearly visible. So that made me wonder when her feeling of offence kicked in.. was it the next day, was it after other complained on her behalf?
I think this is more complicated than people realise. Because even the whole platonic kissing culture is different in Spain to say the U.K.
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One interesting point. What was the reaction on social media when this happened live on TV. Was there outrage from Spanish viewers?
People keep bringing up the kiss moment as the big thing here, but that by itself is not what made this big. See @jojojo's post above: it's Rubiales's actions afterwards that blew up this kiss into something huge. If he had just said sorry, the story would have been over in that instant.
As for your question - I have no idea. I imagine some people will have mentioned it, but overall, I would imagine Spanish people were probably too busy being overjoyed about winning the WC - as was Hermosa herself.
Yes. I agree he should have apologise immediately when the player made her feelings clear.
Trying to understand his “arrogant” reaction to peoples questions. I wonder if it was more him being dumbfounded. I’m not comparing words to something physical but the closest analogy I can think of to something very British is market stall owners back in the day innocently calling women “sweetheart” and “darling” etc. I can imagine their initial reaction being very similar because in their minds it’s just part of the market culture.
Same with this guy. The kissing between men and women, albeit on the cheeks, is a part of traditional Spanish culture. So his reaction might be more confusion and then doubling down. Not excusing it. Just my take.
No, i dont think any of those ideas are radical. Im anti racism, anti sexism, and anti bigotry too. What i find radical is when someone instead of taking a side and being in one extreme of the argument, they take more of a middle ground, for example in this case, i can say Rubiales is a weird creepy prick, and at the same time say this situation was overblown and Hermoso never felt that bad to begin with, and im going to still be called a sexist and that im defending Rubiales and treating Hermoso like an object.
Or when trying to focus on this particular situation and being bombarded with the history of the spanish football federation with sexism, and hell, the entire world's history as well, as if Rubiales and Hermoso had to carry in their shoulders the weight of mankind's mistakes, and use them as scapegoats to prove a point and make a stand against sexism.
I find radical, again, when someone that isnt posting anything outrageous or insulting, perhaps unpopular at the very most, gets banned AKA silenced. Yes, it was just a warning (2 days without posting), but if anyone wants to stay here to keep talking about football, well simply they will decide to stay out of these topics to avoid any more "warnings" for giving their legit non bad-intended opinion.
I have other examples unrelated to this topic, but honestly the list could get too big and i dont need more accusations of bigotry about things we arent even discussing here.
No, not "easily" pressured, when the entire media is being used as a political tool and shes getting bombarded from all directions, thats far from mild pressure. Shes basically put in a position where she has to talk for the better of feminism and be a sword in the fight for the eradication of patriarchy/mysoginy, any smart agent would tell her that if she keeps with the "i dont really care" attitude, shes going to be used as an example of a woman that had the opportunity to make a change and she sellfishly didnt.
Rubiales response didnt help either, he was idiotic and manipulative. His response was 10x worse than the kiss itself IMO, he should have simply stayed quiet or made a direct small apology without any justification or made up BS about the situation. A simple "I was overflown by joy, i saw her sharing the same sentiment, in the heat of the moment i went for the kiss, and later i understood that it was unprofessional and uncalled for, i admit my mistake and i promise to try to be better regardless of whatever consequences come my way" would have been better.
My point is, Hermoso went from being the world champion, to being the sexual abuse victim, now everyone sees her as that and talks to her about that. Too much energy put into something that really didnt hurt anyone, and its overshadowing what brought joy to millions of people. Now i know people will bring the history of sexual abuse, patriarchy and whatever to counter-argument this point, but i simply dont agree you should put that much weight on 2 people's shoulder, not for something so unimportant as a kiss that even the players (and Hermoso) themselves were laughing and giggling about.
And im not wondering why posters dont like me, i know why.
Im talking from my experience, didnt go around asking others if they had gotten warnings or bans for their opinions. The fact i got temporarily banned from the posts ITT really showed me the hypersensitivity to opposing views, and gave me an idea of why you rarely see any pushback to the majority's opinion in most threads unrelated to football.
Either way, tell me what of my posts ITT that i made before my ban (2 days ago) were worthy of a 2 day ban, im really curious what you find so outrageous.
Yeah, i actually agree. He turned a slightly bad/weird situation into something terrible. Im more inclined to agree with this argument than the argument of Hermoso actually being a victim. Let the girl enjoy her championship and stop using her as a political puppet, and deal with Rubiales the way the book says he should be dealt with.
Rubiales has a strong history of sexism though. He might genuinely not get what's wrong with what he does - but by now he should be aware that a large part of Spanish society is not OK with his views/actions in terms of sexism/feminism.
But yeah, definitely, underneath all of it lies of course the ongoing clash between traditional, patriarchist views and moderns views on feminism and equity.
That fcuker rubiales is desperately hanging in there. He doesn’t want to give up that lucrative and powerful position, though he should. What a spineless person he is.
btw. I heard his mother, that was on hunger strike for a few days, was out of the church and in hospital and now at home. Presumably she’ll continue her hunger strike as soon as possible. Stupid bint!
btw. I heard his mother, that was on hunger strike for a few days, was out of the church and in hospital and now at home. Presumably she’ll continue her hunger strike as soon as possible. Stupid bint!
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I don’t know his history. Before this he was just a face I would recognise as being part of the Spanish FA. So based on the context you’ve added about his history it is likely he is being a knut intentionally and just a sexist.
When I saw the video I did say to my brother I didn’t think it was sexual but if it was me I’d be angry because it was condescending and treating me like a child. So your post about him does add up.
Plenty of people are offering opposing views, you're the one with the warning points. This is a you problem. You're doing the very Internet persecution fetish thing, where you take a specific thing - your low quality comments - and generalize it all away, this time to "opposing views".
The men’s NT statement
Spain head coach Jorge Vilda has been sacked.
RFEF statement:
Very weak statement. Essentially it boils down to: „nice that you have won and all, sad that you got abused and all, we’re totally on your side but please nobody bother us anymore, as we don’t want to do anything about it and are annoyed by the matter.
Yeah. I'm not saying a boycott should necessarily be demanded, but for them to fail to demand for the wanker's resignation was a disappointment.
It’s a completely egoistic statement. They make a single demand. And that’s to be left alone so they can do their jobs. If they would go on strike, the pervert in charge would be gone within minutes.
It was underwhelming to say the least. And yeah you are absolutely right about the last sentence.
Congratulations to Spain for making the WWC team's win an absolute side note to the news.
The statement from the RFEF makes for an interesting read. Lots of praise and gratitude to Vilda and a couple of lines saying they've sacked him. I'm guessing they wrote it as a resignation "by mutual agreement" letter and changed their opening lines when he didn't resign.
Anyway - gone now!
It's fine - they made an apology and fired Vilda, starts getting a bit much to overanalyse every sentence
Rubiales has been suspended already and investigation ongoing so no need to go OTT
Good to see them apologising not just for Rubiales' actions at the medal ceremony, but for the way RFEF staff were then used to defend him and attack Hermosa.
I'm not expecting some kind of amazing overnight transformation of RFEF but if they can address some of the structural issues that allow people like Rubiales to thrive then it'll be progress.
I'm talking about the statement by the men's team. And I think that's a pretty poor one. Especially since they had two weeks to come up with something.
Ah ok - I can see your point but generally I just think it's good they made this kind of statement at all
Are you still on a hunger strike?
Not me wokey are you still discovering emotions, other than anger.
I knew it would happen sooner or later. Still, that guy is a luckier bastard than Raymond Doménech ever was.
You actually wrote that shit that @maniak quoted?! I guess you think the world can only handle one issue at any one time, and so only the worst thing can get any attention; that kissing women on the mouth uninvited is fine; and that Rubiales did nothing wrong with his campaign to smear Hermosa afterwards. All correct?
Oh, bonus points for suggesting Latin people are less in control of their emotions than others.
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This is quite something
Harvey Weinstein to release a statement in defence of Rubiales later today.