Even Fergie said so...
Yaya Toure
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
heard yaya aint been the same since the death of his brother. thoughts?
Toure is easily the most important player in that City squad. Not because he's the best they have (though he was last season), but simply because they have no replacements for him.
Silva is a crucial player for them, but Nasri and Navas are decent alternatives. Likewise Aguero is their best striker, but Dzeko and Jovetic are hardly mugs.
But if Toure regularly fails to perform, his replacement is Fernando, Fernandinho or Milner. None of those are either creative or attacking players like Toure. A midfield duo or Fernando & Fernandinho will be hard to dominate physically, but they're not going to win games with their creative play.
Silva is a crucial player for them, but Nasri and Navas are decent alternatives. Likewise Aguero is their best striker, but Dzeko and Jovetic are hardly mugs.
But if Toure regularly fails to perform, his replacement is Fernando, Fernandinho or Milner. None of those are either creative or attacking players like Toure. A midfield duo or Fernando & Fernandinho will be hard to dominate physically, but they're not going to win games with their creative play.
In terms of talent and when he is on form, Yaya is potentially one of the best in that list easily. In terms of his actual performances and effectiveness at the highest level.. I still think he's better than a fair few on that list i.e. Ince/Speed..
As for Mascherano - he is one of the most underrated midfielders in the world, I wrote an article years back about signing Modric and Mascherano.. as I believed them to be the solution to our midfield woes so I'm probably a bit biased here but for me those two are brilliant and I'd have them in my side anyday over a Yaya Toure. You don't need to worry about their lack of work-rate, positioning etc.. they are reliable and top class performers who excelled in the biggest games in the world.
I hate the fact Mascherano plays for Barca.. anyone would look shit on the ball for them i.e. even Fabregas looked poor. If he was playing for United, he'd be the equivalent to Roy Keane.
Speed and Ince better than Toure? Nah. Speed I feel was terribly underrated but he wasn't that good.
I was quite amused t' see him havin' a very chummy and jovial chat with pep immediately after their loss!
of all the things posted on here this is the most ridiculous. mascherano was limited and looked that even when he was at liverpool. he is a more mobile version of makelele with lesser intelligence.
Did you even watch the world cup? he was a deep lying playmaker in every game as well as a one man defensive shield in front of that back four. He'd get the ball off the defenders and make good pass after good pass, he can play it short and long .. he rarely gets tackled on the ball as he is good at protecting it and is technically solid, just not on the same level as a Busquets which is hardly a criticism as he is probably the most technically gifted defensive midfielder in the world.
of all the things posted on here this is the most ridiculous. mascherano was limited and looked that even when he was at liverpool. he is a more mobile version of makelele with lesser intelligence.
For Liverpool, his statistics match after match were insane in terms of interceptions/tackles, and he had an excellent passing accuracy average. Rafa is a twat as Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard was one of the most balanced and tactically astute midfields you're likely to find in the premier league.
Makalele.. another deep lying playmaker but with a smaller passing range, as you saw with Blind against QPR, these players are essential in linking the defence to midfield and ensuring the team doesn't kick it long under pressure all the time. His ability on the ball was also underrated.
Makalele and Mascherano are actually more comfortable on the ball than a Carrick in that they stay composed even if you press them at high speeds, but Carrick possesses a better passing range.
That's like bein' t' best lookin' beauty in t' world that's above 20 stone and without her own teeth.
that is still no equivalent to Roy Keane unless you haven't seen Keane play.
I would take Makelele over Mascherano every day of the week, since he can a job completely, while Mascherano is inferior defensively and not that much better on the ball.
You need good technique to play in that role especially in the modern game. Being a defensive mid isn't just about being an ugly bastard making hard tackles.. the greatest teams have defensive midfielders who act as pivots and start their attacks, link up the ball winning - out of possession element of the side with the creating an attacking movement part of the game.
Mascherano is a good pivot, he has proven that enough times for Argentina.. at club level he'd have proved it too but playing at Barca, they need exceptional players technically in that number 4 role.. you're talking about Guardiola level finesse and deep lying play-making abilities, which as good as Masch is.. no way he can do that for a Barca. Put him in midfield for United and I guarantee, everyone would be raving about how good he is.
Keane was more box to box and is more complete than Mascherano (much better technically for instance, more game craft and effective in different area's on the pitch)and I would take Makalele too for the same reasons you just said but he's still a brilliant player in his own right. He drove his side to a world cup final ffs he ain't no average player.
I'd have t' disagree with you thar. They shield t' defence and give t' ball t' people that can do somethin' with it. Any professional worth his salt doesn't grow up dreamin' about doin' that do they. "I can't wait t' sit in front o' t' back four and feed t' ball t' t' good players." Good midfielders used t' be able t' attack and defend. Now we have "specialists" I think it's a good role for people that be jacks o' all trades and masters o' none.
i agree, i just think you just went over-board with your love for mascherano and i hate the guy, so i am sure my view on him is not going to be anywhere near the truth
Unless you missed his complete domination of our midfield in 2 different CL finals (one of them as a 19 year old), here is what Busquets is capable of-technically. Outside di Maria, Silva and maybe Fabregas and Mata, he is technically far ahead of all midfielders everywhere in the PL.
Guardiola, Alonso, Busquets are miles from Makelele and his ilk. Mascherano is somewhere in between. Kroos, a Scholes clone, is being groomed for that same position by Real now.
Also, this is the Yaya Toure thread. FWIW, Guardiola ditched him because Busquets suits his system better- Yaya's technique wasn't good enough for this most inferior of roles.
Also, the reason we have "specialist" DMs is because of the formation Barca favours- 4-3-3 with one holder. Play the best box-to-box midfielder in that position and you either leave a large gaping hole for the other team or you restrict his movement. Is also the reason why Yaya isn't suited to that role- it curbs his runs forward.
There has been a recent box-to-box resurgence with Vidal, Pogba, Schweinsteiger, Yaya, Fabregas (sort of) and (he doesn't belong with those names does he?) Ramsey. But all these people do have some extra body to cover for them.
I don't remember him dominating the midfield, but I do remember us being outplayed all over the field!
We had the likes of Anderson, Park Ji Sung (from memory) an out of sorts Carrick and an Ageing Scholes playing in our oft-maligned midfield, so it's not as impressive as it sounds. Fletcher (who peaked around the time of the first final) was suspended for one, and sub for the other.
Sure, Scholes was good at pinging the ball around, and Park brings lots of energy, but it's not enough against the likes of Xavi, Messi and Iniesta, even without a DM behind them!
In fairness, Busquets is a good player, despite being a bit of a scumbag. In general though, I still think that the DM role is overrated in terms of technical ability.
We had the likes of Anderson, Park Ji Sung (from memory) an out of sorts Carrick and an Ageing Scholes playing in our oft-maligned midfield, so it's not as impressive as it sounds. Fletcher (who peaked around the time of the first final) was suspended for one, and sub for the other.
Sure, Scholes was good at pinging the ball around, and Park brings lots of energy, but it's not enough against the likes of Xavi, Messi and Iniesta, even without a DM behind them!
In fairness, Busquets is a good player, despite being a bit of a scumbag. In general though, I still think that the DM role is overrated in terms of technical ability.
@berbatrick, agreed. Don't think Cesc is better technically than Busquets though, it was easy to compare them when they were in the same team. Cesc was a step below Iniesta and Xavi, while Busquets doesn't look out of place. His touch is one of the best in the world.
Kompany and Silva are more important for me. Yaya Toure is like a bonus because the fact there is no one else like him means we can still have a very good midfield anyway. A midfield two of Fernando and Fernandinho is still better than the midfield duo of most Premier League sides. Take Kompany away though and the defence isn't the same. However Mangala's signing could change that as on paper Demichelis-Mangala is still very good. Silva though remains probably the most important, we just don't have anyone to replace him. When he is not playing Nasri just cannot do his role so we have to change the whole way the team plays. In fact I'd say Silva is our most important player and by some distance.
because of the last worldcup mascherano gets completely overrated.
Or appropriately rated after years of being underrated due to playing out of position? At Liverpool he was one of the outstanding players in a CL final and effectively marked the best player in the world out of the game for 80 minutes, and his substitution directly influenced the game by allowing Kaká to finally find a bit of space to create something. He was undeniably excellent in the World Cup as well and I don't see why that should be dismissed.
i dont care if he plays out of position or not. Since he joined Barca in 2010 he is not worldclass. Not even close. For 4 years he is incredible mediocre and it really doesnt matter that he might be a very good DM, if he just doesnt play on this position anymore. Furthermore he is a very limited player. He always was a classic midfield destroyer. Someone who is great in breaking up the flow of the game but he offered little more.
Sure this has been posted already but what the hell
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...--he-just-doesnt-look-interested-9742487.html
Scholesy sticking it to Yaya.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...--he-just-doesnt-look-interested-9742487.html
Scholesy sticking it to Yaya.
That's just nonsense. He's a limited player, but that's about all I can agree with. Since he joined Barcelona he's been putting in good performances considering he was played out of position. In fact, for a lot of his time there he was the best centre back at the club (which probably has more to do with Piqué's decline in fairness).
I think he's got better on the ball since he went there too, still limited but not as average as he was before.
Yaya Toure is overrated because the EPL simply hasn't been that good the last few years. Honestly a part from 2012-13 Carrick and 2013-14 Ramsey, 2010-11 Modric, tell me another outstanding CM in the last 4 years? Chelsea didn't have one, Arsenal lost Fabregas and in his last year he played more advanced, and everybody knows about our CM woes. That's why he could dominate on such a high level in the EPL. Yaya Toure is still a great player, but if I read things like he is on a Viera/Keane level I simply have to laugh.
World class box to box player, but certainly not comparable to the best of all time.
World class box to box player, but certainly not comparable to the best of all time.
the problem with yaya is that he is more of an attacking midfielder than a central midfielder. He is good enough to play this position on a hgh level, but not all responsibilties of this position are naturally part of his game. His offensive game is very complete and worldclass, but he is not a top defender or worldclass holdingplayer. For City he has defensive responsibilities, playmaking responsibilities and offensive responsibilities. He has to do everything, which makes it really hard to label him.
On a top level his weaknesses are getting exposed quite a bit. Its not really his fault, because no midfielder in the world accelerates in all these areas. I think he would be/would have been worldclass in a slightly different role.
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@Bob Loblaw: Mascherano is not a top10 cb. simple as that. Eventually not even top20. He got completely exposed quite a few times on this position. He is a good DM but also not in the top5 of the world and doesnt play on this position anymore. I agree that his technique improved quite a bit since he joined Barca. He is still limited. Before the worldcup people poked fun at the barca defense and him all the time.
On a top level his weaknesses are getting exposed quite a bit. Its not really his fault, because no midfielder in the world accelerates in all these areas. I think he would be/would have been worldclass in a slightly different role.
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@Bob Loblaw: Mascherano is not a top10 cb. simple as that. Eventually not even top20. He got completely exposed quite a few times on this position. He is a good DM but also not in the top5 of the world and doesnt play on this position anymore. I agree that his technique improved quite a bit since he joined Barca. He is still limited. Before the worldcup people poked fun at the barca defense and him all the time.
But he was brilliant in the WC. Was very comfortable on the ball, positioning was excellent and he didn't take any prisoners. Quite a contrast from the guy who lost his head at OT when playing for Liverpool.
He showed his best form while at Liverpool.
I wouldnt of fancied playing against him purely because of his size and power.
He is unique in the league as really, nobody else has anything like him in the middle, the EPL doesnt have those kind of powerhouse midfielders.
He is unique in the league as really, nobody else has anything like him in the middle, the EPL doesnt have those kind of powerhouse midfielders.
Agree that he's not top 10 as a centre back but not with the defensive midfielder part. Like BarneyLFC said, I think he's only behind Busquets and Javi Martínez, although depending on how you class other players I could see him falling down a bit.PedroMendez said:
I think that all of that is fairly irrelevant. He plays week in week out for barca on a different position for quite some time now. He is mediocre on this position and the few times that he played for barca as DM werent worldclass either. I agree he would be way better in a different system and in another role, but to label him worldclass because of 7 games is nonsense. Especially because most teams, that he played against, werent very good and he also didnt shine against all of them. He had a great game against germany, where he was fairly lucky that he didnt get send off. Most people only remember this performance and rate him because of it.
You are saying that he is the 3rd best DM in the world, but thats just a guess, because he showed very little to support this claim during the last 4 years. I´d pick a couple of players ahead of him. Busquets, Martinez, Fernandinho, Lahm are all clearly better. Players like Matic, the benders, gustavo, gabi or matuidi are more or less in the same bracket. Many teams dont even play with a pure destoryer anymore (busquets, Fernandinho and Lahm arent out-out destroyer anyway) and there are dozens of holdingplayers that are better than him (e.g. Schweinsteiger, alonso, carrick).
Going off topic here but you say Ramsey doesn't belong with those names but Pogba does? Both of them have had one fantastic goalscoring season, except Ramsey has done it in a weaker team in a stronger league. What has Pogba done to show he's a world class box-to-box CM comparable to the likes of Vidal and Schweinsteiger except for score some flashy goals?
I think you're being really, really harsh on him but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Pogba simply isn't a box to box type midfielder. Is there any Juve fans on the CAF these days? Im sure they'd agree....
Fair point... but Pogba has shown his class at the World Cup too. Also, given his age, his technical skill and his physique, he should have a higher ceiling than, well, pretty much anyone.
I guess, but how would you class him. He is a bit like Pirlo but doesn't sit back always, he isn't a tackler or enforcer at all, and he isn't a #10, he passes well and covers a lot of ground, so I put him as box-to-box.
Another pedestrian performance from the Premier Leagues best midfielder, I dont know what it is but off the ball he always seems to hobble around like he is injured all the time, is he just lazy? or just another Berbatov?
Lazy and/or shockingly bad stamina. Not sure which, but it's been a feature of his game since he piled on the pounds in his final Barcelona season. He'd really frustrate me if he was a Liverpool player, all that talent is useless when you play like you can't be arsed.
What do you make of Balotelli then?
The same, only he isn't as talented.
The contrast between him on the ball and off it is amazing, he hobbles around not even on his toes picks up the ball and goes on a run, loses it then needs about 10 minutes to recover from said run
Remember people on twitter saying he was better than Keane, Vieira and Gerrard during their respective primes. Made me lol.
City though arent using him well at all.
City though arent using him well at all.