No doubt other players haven't scored enough. Though I'm not sure those figures need to keep being repeated in the Zlatan thread. For instance you've brought them up here and they're not at all relevant to my reply. I'm talking purely about Zlatan and his impact in the league.
10
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 46
- Goals
- 28
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
You don't think so? I was responding to this:
However you look at it he's scored 15 in the league. It's a decent amount. It's not great though. One ahead of Defoe, a couple ahead of Ali. It's only six more than Troy Deeney. Given his status, his position and the team he plays for I don't think anybody could be blown away by his league form.
Well doesn't his impact depend on his teammates? You point out that it's not that big of a difference compared to i.e. Alli. I showed that the other teams have made more goals than Manchester United and have a better distribution. Having 15 goals of the teams 39 is a good "impact in the League" for Ibra.
Oh, by the way. Am I supposed to create a new thread everytime I want to say something a bit off-topic? Well, if I'm wrong then I apologise.
I wont be all that disapointed if Zlatan leaves next season if we get another striker (Belotti or Dembelle for example)
Zlatan may be very fit but his reaction is clearly slower. Those half chances/opportunities go missing. As you get older your reaction times become a fraction slower.
Martial and Rashford are not quite there.
Greizman will replace Rooney.
Mikhi and Mata and hopefully Pereira will be good options for the attacking midfielder options.
Zlatan may be very fit but his reaction is clearly slower. Those half chances/opportunities go missing. As you get older your reaction times become a fraction slower.
Martial and Rashford are not quite there.
Greizman will replace Rooney.
Mikhi and Mata and hopefully Pereira will be good options for the attacking midfielder options.
Belotti is really good, but wouldn't he need some time to adjust to the PL? I think that this is the problem, there's not a striker that's "ready" to produce 20+ goals their first season. At least none I can think of at the moment, that are available.
Nothing to apologise for but I'm talking about Zlatans league form and how difficult(or not) it will be to replace him. The goals others have scored just aren't relevant here.
If available I'd start Ibra from now until the end of the season, he's done quite well in the league, the other players are used to him upfront and it's too late to start messing about. However the rhetoric on his league form has got out of proportion. It's not that difficult to replace.
Like I said I'd start with Zlatan but if he is banned I hope Rashford can show José that we at least have a decent alternative.
Do you think that Mourinho will get a back-up for Ibra (if he stays) if Rashford won't be successful during Ibra's suspension? I hope Rashford will score lots of goals, but I'm wondering what Mourinho's plan might be.
And now people will counter with: But we are setup to create all the chsnces for Zlatan and no one else gets a chance to score.
Sorry for bumping this and if it's already been picked up.
But the reason they score own goals is because it's harder to miss the target than score so you're arguing against yourself here
What's not that difficult to replace? Zlatans goals?
Sorry, made a mess of the bold part.
It would be interesting to see the goals spread during the latter RVN years and the years after that, where we played a lot better as a team.And now people will counter with: But we are setup to create all the chsnces for Zlatan and no one else gets a chance to score.
I'm not sure. I said in the build up to signing Zlatan ( it was my main complaint) that it's difficult to see how this fits with any long term planning. I can't see him going with Rashford next season. It's just not Mourinho. However I don't see him relying on Zlatan so much. Then you thrown in Zlatans reluctance to commit and it's all a bit unsure.
His league goals. I also said "not that difficult." I'm not dismissing 15 goals, it's a decent tally, but you don't need to spend massive amounts to replace that tally.
Lol. That was funny, because surely, you must be joking.
I'll admit that during this season for us he's been awfully (surprisingly, rather) quiet regarding his familiar thuggish antics – and that's comparing it to his own standards.
However, I'll repeat, it hasn't been non-existent. From the top of my head: his heel-stomp on Seamus Coleman. Or his out-of-nowhere throat-grabbing/chest-puffing against Simon Kjaer in the Europa League away fixture to Fenerbahce, to what – get the team "going"? As much as I love hard hitting bruising hockey, football ain't hockey. I also seem to recall something in our 1–3 win away against Swansea previously this season, in which he was yellow carded, can't remember the exact details, although if my memory serves me correctly, it wasn't a standard football challenge, so to speak.
Also: 5–10 years ago? Now I know you're joking. From his "no-look-pass", uhm… "humor" – to his red card (albeit a harsh call) with PSG against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, or another red card whilst also at PSG, playing against Valencia in the Champions League. Come on…
Like I said, I like Ibra. His arrogance and character needs to stay the same, but you can't deny the fact that it hurts (and has hurt) his teams (and in the end, also himself), neither can you convince me of otherwise. What matches have you actually been watching the past 5–10 years? From playing for our national team to the club matches, it appears as if you've missed quite a few golden nuggets!
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No, he hasn't cut that part out, he's toned it down a bit perhaps, masking it through his in general professional behaviour, but don't fool yourself – he's still Zlatan and that is a big part of being Zlatan. There's a reason he has freaking black belts in martial arts and that many know about it, or the fact that he jokes about sending both Conor McGregor or Floyd Mayweather to the hospital (actually, he just might, haha).
It's just a part of who he is and his persona, forever tough guy, with a tough mentality. Which is fine. But it does have its downsides too.
That's what people tell me at least. I haven't watched him much in Psg so I'm not sure what has been going on over there in France. But I know he used to get more red cards earlier in his career.
I've looked at his time at Manchester United and put them together, so these are the numbers I've found:
League goals (goals in all comp):
01/02: RVN-23(36), Solskjaer-17-(25), Beckham-11(16), Scholes-8(9) Giggs-7(9)Veron-5(5)
02/03: RVN-25(44), Scholes-14(20), Solsjkaer-9(15), Giggs-8(14), Beckham-6(11), Forlan-6(9)
03/04: RVN-20(30), Scholes-9(14), Giggs-7(8), Saha-7(7), Ronaldo-4(6), Forlan-4(8)
04/05: Rooney-11(17), RVN-6(16), Scholes-9(12), Smith-6(10), Giggs-6(9), Ronaldo-5(9)
05/06: RVN-21(24), Rooney-16(19), Ronaldo-9(12), Saha-7(15), Giggs-2(4), Richardson-1(5)
That could be true but how likely would that replacement bring the hold up and mainly playmaking that Zlatan brings?I've said this many times, he wouldn't be considered as one of the top strikers in the world for a decade if you only look at his goalscoring. He isn't clinical, difinately not, but finding someone who has his type of skillset would be difficult.
@criticalanalysis I've done a list of the remaining seasons as well. Here goes:
06/07: Ronaldo-17(23), Rooney-14(23), Saha-8(13), Solskjaer-7(11), Scholes-6(7), Giggs-4(6)
07/08: Ronaldo-31(42), Tevez-14(19), Rooney-12(18), Saha-5(5), Giggs-3(4), Nani-3(4)
08/09: Ronaldo-18(26), Rooney-12(20), Berbatov-9(14), Tevez-5(15), Vidic-4(7), Nani-1(6)
09/10: Rooney-26(34), Berbatov-12(12), Valencia-5(7), Giggs-5(7), Owen-3(9), Scholes-3(7)
10/11: Berbatov-20(21), Hernandez-13(20), Rooney-11(16), Nani-9(10), Park-5(8), Vidic-5(5)
11/12: Rooney-27(34), Hernandez-10(12), Welbeck-9(12), Nani-8(10), Berbatov-7(9), Young-6(8)
12/13: van Persie-26(30), Rooney-12(16), Hernandez-10(18), Kagawa-6(6), Giggs-2(5), Evra-4(4)
13/14: Rooney-17(19), van Persie-12(18), Welbeck-9(10), Hernandez-4(9), Mata-6(6), Januzaj-4(4)
14/15: Rooney-12(14), Mata-9(10), van Persie-10(10), Herrera-6(8), Fellaini-6(7), Smalling-4(4)
15/16: Martial-11(17), Rooney-8(15), Mata-6(10), Rashford-5(8), Lingard-4(6), Depay-2(7)
06/07: Ronaldo-17(23), Rooney-14(23), Saha-8(13), Solskjaer-7(11), Scholes-6(7), Giggs-4(6)
07/08: Ronaldo-31(42), Tevez-14(19), Rooney-12(18), Saha-5(5), Giggs-3(4), Nani-3(4)
08/09: Ronaldo-18(26), Rooney-12(20), Berbatov-9(14), Tevez-5(15), Vidic-4(7), Nani-1(6)
09/10: Rooney-26(34), Berbatov-12(12), Valencia-5(7), Giggs-5(7), Owen-3(9), Scholes-3(7)
10/11: Berbatov-20(21), Hernandez-13(20), Rooney-11(16), Nani-9(10), Park-5(8), Vidic-5(5)
11/12: Rooney-27(34), Hernandez-10(12), Welbeck-9(12), Nani-8(10), Berbatov-7(9), Young-6(8)
12/13: van Persie-26(30), Rooney-12(16), Hernandez-10(18), Kagawa-6(6), Giggs-2(5), Evra-4(4)
13/14: Rooney-17(19), van Persie-12(18), Welbeck-9(10), Hernandez-4(9), Mata-6(6), Januzaj-4(4)
14/15: Rooney-12(14), Mata-9(10), van Persie-10(10), Herrera-6(8), Fellaini-6(7), Smalling-4(4)
15/16: Martial-11(17), Rooney-8(15), Mata-6(10), Rashford-5(8), Lingard-4(6), Depay-2(7)
Probably impossible, especially nowadays. Strikers of his kind are the last of a dying breed...
I'm not saying he should be scoring 40 goals by this stage of the season. I'm saying if he'd converted 2-3 of the chances he's had in certain games, we'd be higher up the table. Is that really so hard to accept? We also shouldn't be shrugging our shoulders and going "meh what are you going to do?" when Zlatan misses the chances that could've made the difference between a draw and a win.
I do feel the rest ought to contribute. Martial, Mata and Mkhitaryan have not exactly had good goalscoring runs this season. Hell, they've not even consistently appeared in many consecutive games. Maybe that's our problem. The ones who should be supplementing Zlatan's goal in the team have been injured or out of the team too often this season.
Also, this is not the Pogba thread, but to further emphasise that I don't solely think Zlatan is to blame for our league position, Pogba has been absolutely rubbish at finishing the chances he's had.
Well clearly you've more interested in his antics than I am. I more interested on his play, so I rarely remember everything as good as you do. I remember him for all of his goal, assists and other good things. As I remember it - 5-10 years ago, it was almost as if he wanted to fight all the time. Now it only happens when someone's "begging" for it, by constantly "harassing" him. This is actually something you should expect - his style of play is very physical, so the defenders have to be physical and most of the time use other "tools", such name-calling and so forth.
Yeah, I agree. Was gonna say impossible but settled for difficult. I'm sure though, if Mourinho is still here, he will try to find a big man as his replacement to lead the line.
Like you said, this is the Ibra thread - but doesn't the same thing apply to his teammates? Wouldn't we be higher up the table if they scored "when they should have"?
Mourinho has probably planned something. I had an idea which I wrote in a different thread and that was to try to buy Kasper Dolberg, 19 years old, 1.87m, 77kg. Loan him out to a mid-League club for 2 years and when he returns he can be ready to fully take over after Ibra. Will be 22 years old when the season starts. Or someone like him.
The same thing he did in Chelsea, when he bought Courtois. Loaned him out to Atletico Madrid for 3 seasons and when he returned he took over from Cech. Would be the ideal solution in my opinion. Because I really don't see any striker out there at the moment that could be available and doing what Ibra does.
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To be fair every single other top scorer around him have the same or more assists than him.
I'm sick and tired of those 'if he had converted those chances we would be higher up the table.'
As if that works like that.
He would score those chances and then he would score the goals he indeed scored too?
And what about other players and their chances?
The guy who scored the most gets the most flak about missed chances.
As if that works like that.
He would score those chances and then he would score the goals he indeed scored too?
And what about other players and their chances?
The guy who scored the most gets the most flak about missed chances.
Maybe that's because our players keep missing chances he setup. You do know he has the most chances created in our team with 77? And he's second after Sanchez in key passes in PL, and third in Europe only after Messi and Sanchez, from the top scorers.
The only reason he has created more chances is cause he's played more minutes. His chance creation is actually the 2nd lowest from our forward players.
Read this today about Ibra - you can agree or disagree but here goes:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...ona-but-hes-more-like-roy-keane-35502782.html
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...ona-but-hes-more-like-roy-keane-35502782.html
..and also as you know, he needs to take more shots to score a goal than the rest of his teammates. They don't often shoot, but when they shoot, they are more likely to score. Pogba also takes many shots per goal
He says a lot of good stuff about his winning mentality, his way with the youngsters and his humour. But there's a load of arse licking bollox in that article too. The below a prime example:
Alexis Sanchez and Harry Kane have been tearing the league up, the way he belittles their purpose to their respective teams is astonishing. They have undoubtedly been better in the league than Ibra too. And Zlatan does a fair amount of his own complaining to his teammates. It's hard to find a balanced views these days.
How do you know that they'll score more if they take more shots? If that's what you're implying.....and also as you know, he needs to take more shots to score a goal than the rest of his teammates. They don't often shoot, but when they shoot, they are more likely to score. Pogba also takes many shots per goal
Agree with you about the Sanchez and Kane part. But this is Ibra's first season, which it's not for the others.
Wow, how did you discover this? So this means that Zlatan is our worst finnisher. I think you should send these stats to Mourinho so he can let the prolific Wayne Rooney, Lingard, Martial and co take more shots...and also as you know, he needs to take more shots to score a goal than the rest of his teammates. They don't often shoot, but when they shoot, they are more likely to score. Pogba also takes many shots per goal
Maybe Mourinho doesn't have acces to these stats so he's under the impression Zlatan is our best finnisher.
There's no guarantee that if they started taking more shots they would keep their current SpG ratio, true. What it shows is that they are not profligate.
Someone in this thread has been implying that Zlatan is great at creation making and his teammates miss the chances he creates for them. The reality is that, for the time he's played, Zlatan has created less chances than the other forwards and he's been profligate when his teammates haven't. They haven't been missing chances, their conversion rate is very good, they are just not at the receiving end of chances.
The problem of our league goalscoring form has been that:
a) We didn't always put our most creative players on the pitch (Mkhi and Martial benched for long periods)
b) Some of the creative players have not been scoring many goals compared to their shots (mainly Pogba)
b) The vast majority of our chances fall to Ibrahimovic, which makes us one dimensional and over-reliant on him
c) Considering the number of chances, Ibra's goal scoring record in the league is decent, but very far from great. Despite that he's never benched.
The stats back all this up.
I have also argued that compared to last season we are only 6 goals better off in the league, despite adding Mkhi and Pogba to the squad and playing far more attacking football. All that suggests to me that this over-reliance on Ibra has not really paid off in the league and is not actually to the teams benefit at the moment. But people see whatever they want to see in the stats
All brilliant arguments I can't counter them. My brain will explode from the effort
There is nothing to counter, you just posted some pointles stats, I think you should explain what you want to prove.All brilliant arguments I can't counter them. My brain will explode from the effort
One of the biggest problems this season has been the inconsistency. The front four should be "cemented" by now, but injuries and Mourinho has prevented this. Mkhitaryan hasn't played that much and if he'd been available more I think he and Ibra would have understood each other even better. Same goes with Ibra and Martial - they have no "chemistry" at all - don't undrstand each others movements.
I don't like the shots per goal ratio, because if you'd "trust" that it would mean that for instance, Troy Deeney (25 apps, 9 goals, 1.3 SpG) or Fernando Llorente (20 apps, 11 goals, 1.8 SpG) or Joshua King (21 apps, 8 goals, 1.5 SpG) or Andre Gray (19 apps, 8 goals, 1.9 SpG) or even Joe Allen (24 apps, 6 goals, 1.3 SpG) are all better, with better SpG than Ibra - are these better players than Ibra? I hope you don't say yes, I can't take you seriously if you do so...
There's nothing to prove to you buddy. You are beyond receiving proof as evidence. Just enjoy the posts
And Rojo has 0.6 which is the best for the team after his goal yesterday. These stats need indeed to be viewed in comparison with others. A lot of these players are not forwards (Joe Allen) and the others don't have enough good movement and link-up play to get to the receiving end of goalscoring opportunities. All these are measures of a strikers ability. I'm not doubting that Zlatan is a better all around player than them and brave enough to take enough shots to score goals.One of the biggest problems this season has been the inconsitency. The front four should be "cemented" by now, but injuries and Mourinho has prevented this. Mkhitaryan hasn't played that much and if he'd been available more I Think he and Ibra would have understood each other even better. Same goes with Ibra and Martial - they have no "chemistry" at all - don't undrstand each others movements.
I don't like the shots per goal ratio, because if you'd "trust" that it would mean that for instance, Troy Deeney (25 apps, 9 goals, 1.3 SpG) or Fernando Llorente (20 apps, 11 goals, 1.8 SpG) or Joshua King (21 apps, 8 goals, 1.5 SpG) or Andre Gray (19 apps, 8 goals, 1.9 SpG) or even Joe Allen (24 apps, 6 goals, 1.3 SpG). Are these better players than Ibra? I hope you don't say yes, I can't take you seriously if you do so...
However when you have the highest number of missed clear goalscoring chances in the league and the highest number of shots per goal, it does show that perhaps Ibra is not as indispensable as we make him out to be and we should be exploring different options for when he's having a stinker. It's hard for me to believe that all our attacking players have regressed and Ibra is the sole saviour when I look at these stats. I love to have him here, but I'm not scared of a future without him.
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