[Drainy]

When opinions about a player and his performances are this polarised, it's usually the sign that something isn't all that good.

Or that the team isn't doing well so the usual suspects thrash around trying to finger which player we should just replace to fix all our issues.

The fact is that our team lacks quality in front of goal, but to blame the one player who is actually effective is just a bit odd. General rule is that all strikers miss chances, all strikers lose the ball, all strikers overhit passes in key areas- Zlatan does all those things, which when frustrated fans are looking to blame someone they can point at- but there are very few players who if they were in this team would do better.

 

[Giggsyking]

The stats does not lie. Zlatan has missed more promising clear chances in the league than any other player by a big margin (50%) than the nearest player Aguero. He is playing because we need his scoring abilities and we are giving up pace and counter attack for that. But reality is we are giving up so much of our style of play to get so little from him. IMO he shouldn't be here next year.

 

[RedMaestro]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I thought other than a few moments, his general play was poor.

Isn't this because you and others maybe focus more on his mistakes than the good things he does? You expect more from him so it's a bit difficult to
'forgive' him for his mistakes? It's like his conversion rate - people ignore the fact that he's scored a lot this season (and had plenty of assists) and only think about how much he has missed. Could this be the case or am I overly thinking it and sounding a bit harsh? It's not my intention, just trying to understand why some think he was good yesterday and others think he was bad...

 

[RedMaestro]

The stats does not lie. Zlatan has missed more promising clear chances in the league than any other player by a big margin (50%) than the nearest player Aguero. He is playing because we need his scoring abilities and we are giving up pace and counter attack for that. But reality is we are giving up so much of our style of play to get so little from him. IMO he shouldn't be here next year.

People mention this. I'm no expert but how much counter attack is a part of the teams play?

 

[Fracture90]

Or that the team isn't doing well so the usual suspects thrash around trying to finger which player we should just replace to fix all our issues.

The fact is that our team lacks quality in front of goal, but to blame the one player who is actually effective is just a bit odd. General rule is that all strikers miss chances, all strikers lose the ball, all strikers overhit passes in key areas- Zlatan does all those things, which when frustrated fans are looking to blame someone they can point at- but there are very few players who if they were in this team would do better.

None's really disputing that he's our top scorer, from his personal side he had a quite good season. He brings experience and some sort of leadership. But there are two sides to every coin.

Not that odd when you take into consideration the amount of chances he has missed. He's the focal point of this team, everyone in team looks to facilitate for him and therfore it's only logical he will be our top scorer. Plus he plays every minute.

We strive to reach the level of top clubs the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Atletico, Juventus. Do you think any of those clubs would take Zlatan to be their main attacking player?

 

[Fracture90]

Zlatan vs. Anderlecht, all touches he had.

 

[Fracture90]

People mention this. I'm no expert but how much counter attack is a part of the teams play?

So far in Mourinho's career, that was his bread and butter.

 

[Jig1234]

To answer the last question.!
the same place we were the last year. Which is the same place that we are in right now

'But without Ibrahimovic we would be 15th'

- I've heard this so many times. Laughable. Firstly: If we didn't sign Ibrahimovic we may have signed someone else.

Second: Let's say we couldn't find someone else. What difference would it have made? We had Rooney, Rashford last season.

We didn't have ibrahimovic and we still had the same exact season we're having now. Only difference is Ibrahimovic is doing what Martial did last year. Ibrahimovic has outscored Martial's tally but we're still having the same exact season.

Yes, I get it he scored 28 goals so people get a blinded by that and think criticism is unwarranted. However, you need to look at at in the context of our season and the fact is he's inability to run in behind, split defenders and general link play is dreadful.

He gives me the impression that one goal is enough. He's done his job it's everyone else's fault we aren't winning. The finishing is terrible by every player but people underestimate how important the striker is to the build up of the entire team.

He wants/needs everything to feet. We need someone with more agility in the penalty area: It's why we're terrible in the final third. Ibrahimovic has proved he is still a fantastic goal scorer but he hasn't proved to be the scorer this team needs. We need more than a 1 goal man. We need someone with more mobility and guile to complement the other players. He'll only ever get 1 goal per game, if that.

Ibrahimovic doesn't make anyone around him play better he just makes them worse. Having someone who can run in behind would create more space for the others and would drastically improve our ability in the final third. Ibrahimovic forces us to play safe into feet football, which doesn't suit anyone we have.

He has too many games he does absolutely nothing and that's because he will be easily to mark out of games at times. (We've seen how isolated he gets at Old Trafford).
Team sit deep, it's difficult for him to have any impact. It's good now and again but he won't score enough or create enough for where we wish to be, which is back at the top challenging for titles.

We saw this against Anderlecht the team has zero fluidity a bad touch or poor weight of pass. Not saying he is the only one. Others have been poor also but I do think having a more progressive forward would make a big difference, it would encourage more forward passes knowing we have someone who can split the CB's and go in behind.

Not trying to have a go at him because he has proven me wrong by scoring more than I thought he would this season. But I think we need to demand more of a Man Utd centre forward. We need a striker who can do everything.

 

[pocco]

The stats does not lie. Zlatan has missed more promising clear chances in the league than any other player by a big margin (50%) than the nearest player Aguero. He is playing because we need his scoring abilities and we are giving up pace and counter attack for that. But reality is we are giving up so much of our style of play to get so little from him. IMO he shouldn't be here next year.

This is the conclusion i came to a while ago. We will never be happy with our attacking play whilst he is the man up top. I'm willing to give all that up whilst we steady the ship this season, but we need to put something more sustainable together in the summer. We want to see progress and that were actually might in the right direction.

 

[Drainy]

We strive to reach the level of top clubs the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Atletico, Juventus. Do you think any of those clubs would take Zlatan to be their main attacking player?

Fans have said this about every position except goalkeeper and possibly right back this season.

The weakness in our attack isn't Zlatan- he has been good enough to get us back to Champions League football, which is why we signed him at 34 years of age.
The issue has been getting enough consistency of production from the 3 behind him.

People have such short memories for the chances that previous strikers missed.

Outside of Ruud and Ole I cannot remember a striker who didn't get stick from the fans for missing easy chances.

 

[Fracture90]

Fans have said this about every position except goalkeeper and possibly right back this season.

The weakness in our attack isn't Zlatan- he has been good enough to get us back to Champions League football, which is why we signed him at 34 years of age.
The issue has been getting enough consistency of production from the 3 behind him.

People have such short memories for the chances that previous strikers missed.

Outside of Ruud and Ole I cannot remember a striker who didn't get stick from the fans for missing easy chances.

Thing is we gave up too much to accommodate Zlatan. We gave up on pace, agility, counter attacking and running behind the defence. So many times he just drops deep and our attack buildup just stops in order for a player that has the ball to pass it to him, so he can have his touch. There are also instances when our wingers and wingbacks can't send a cross in because he's out of the 16 yard box.

As I said, from his personal side he has had a very good season, but from team point we gave up too much to acommodate for his lackings. Also there is that thing of him always complaining either raising his hands up or pointing out in front of him, everytime someone other decides to shot. That creates bad atmosphere in team IMO. It also preven other players from expressing themselves.

Again I'm not denying that he has scored a lot, honestly he exceeded my expectations but he also missed a lot as well.

 

[lem8sh]

Rashford miscontrolled the ball every time he got in behind their defense, yet I see people praising his performance because of the effort and energy.

I like the way you just made that up yet wasn't pulled on it.

 

[Born2Lose]

Rashford made a lot of runs through the center in tonight's match, especially in the first half. But his pace doesn't mean much when he doesn't have the ability to control those passes and the strength to hold off defenders.

Rashford was dispossessed once versus Ibrahimovic's twice, and Rashford had three unsuccessful touches versus Ibrahimovic's four. Source - Whoscored

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

There are some on here who seem a bit too eager to criticise Zlatan at times but it was justified with his performance last night.

I thought he was terrible. He seemed to spend 99% of the game stood completely still waiting for the ball and then when it arrived he'd give it away immediately. He did well to set up Pogba for his weekly poor finish but other than that he did very little.

 

[montpelier]

Whatever you say here, there's no playing relationship going on between Zlatan & the wide forwards. They are not helping him much & vice versa. The only connections we have seen have been Mata-Zlatan & Pogba-Zlatan.

Zlatan must carry some responsibility for this but is mainly absolved of blame by his volume of goals.

Either, the other 2 don't know how to play the position in a 4-3-3 or Jose sets it up as too much of a 4-1-4-1 (which has looked obvious a few times) because he likes to not be conceding goals & has been successful in this.

But the conversion rate & the creation rate is just not very good considering the amount of possession of the ball Utd generally have in games.

The others in the Top 6 put away inferior teams so easily compared to us, by creating more & easier chances & scoring more goals. FACT. The others might have bad days at the office but in comparison we are relentlessly crap at it.

 

[ManUtd1999]

I know Zlatan didn't play well last night but ffs what's up with people overreacting every time he has a bad game? People saying stuff like 'our attack would be much better without him' need to get a fecking grip. Zlatan has scored 28 goals for us and has single handily won us games at times this season. If there's a player who deserves the least amount of criticism it's this man. I have no idea where we would be without his goals.

I fully agree with this.

Zlatan scored 28 of our 90 goals (1 own goal) this season in all competitions. Very impressive record.

 

[RedMaestro]

I fully agree with this.

Zlatan scored 28 of our 90 goals (1 own goal) this season in all competitions. Very impressive record.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Sounds a lot or a little?

Here is the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_Manchester_United_F.C._season
(Check "squad statistics").

 

[RedMaestro]

Sounds a lot or a little?

Here is the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_Manchester_United_F.C._season
(Check "squad statistics").

A lot. It's 46 in the PL. So it's 44 in the other competitions? Better than I thought.

 

[Fracture90]

Considering he has Fellaini as the top rated player this season, I think that he's trolling.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Considering he has Fellaini as the top rated player this season, I think that he's trolling.

Look at the link that I've posted above. It may be wrong, but these are the numbers.

EDIT: here is the official count from the official website: 89 goals scored by us+1 own goal= 90. So, it seems correct.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...oals-for-manchester-united-squad-2016-17.aspx

A lot. It's 46 in the PL. So it's 44 in the other competitions? Better than I thought.

I was surprised too, but we typically scored a good number of goals in the cups. It's just that we didn't do well in the EPL.

 

[Fracture90]

Look at the link that I've posted above. It may be wrong, but these are the numbers.

EDIT: here is the official count from the official website: 89 goals scored by us+1 own goal= 90. So, it seems correct.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...oals-for-manchester-united-squad-2016-17.aspx


I was surprised too, but we typically scored a good number of goals in the cups. It's just that we didn't do well in the EPL.

I wasn't aware we scored 90 in all competitions! In that case, my bad.

Tho you still have Fellaini as your too rated player…

 

[ManUtd1999]

Tho you still have Fellaini as your too rated player…

And how is this related to this particular conversation?

 

[DarkXaero]

Rashford was dispossessed once versus Ibrahimovic's twice, and Rashford had three unsuccessful touches versus Ibrahimovic's four. Source - Whoscored

Yea, the difference is that Rashford had a good game by his standards, while Ibra had a poor one by his.

 

[DarkXaero]

I like the way you just made that up yet wasn't pulled on it.

I didn't make it up, he had multiple bad touches on those runs.

 

[lem8sh]

I didn't make it up, he had multiple bad touches on those runs.

Plucked from thin air.

 

[DarkXaero]

Plucked from thin air.

Alright, whatever...

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Zlatan vs. Anderlecht, all touches he had.

Hmm it is the same amount of sloppy in every game. People need to come to terms with the fact that with the brilliance, will come a level of sloppy you have to get used to. Discussions around here will be a lot more fruitful if that were to happen.

 

[RedMaestro]

Hmm it is the same amount of sloppy in every game. People need to come to terms with the fact that with the brilliance, will come a level of sloppy you have to get used to. Discussions around here will be a lot more fruitful if that were to happen.

From what I can remember Ibrahimovic has always been like this. He's never been 'faultless' in a game. He always mixes a lot of good things with easy mistakes. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that he always tries to do some things a bit more difficult than others might.

Besides, how many, if any, players are there out there, that do everything without mistakes? If you want players without mistakes then it's the players that won't dare to do anything and would rather give the ball to someone else. This is something Ibrahimovic is the opposite of - he never hides and wants the ball even when it's difficult. He always tries to help his teammates and of course he'll make occasional mistakes sometimes, but it's still better than not doing anything at all.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that he always tries to do some things a bit more difficult than others might.

We're talking basic one touch passing to nobody, giving it away under zero pressure here though. I think there is an obvious difference between trying to make things happen and dropping deep and killing an attack by passing a ball 5 yards behind a player running through straight to the opposition. General sloppiness is just what people have to accept (though go to a bunch of our players threads and various players get massive pelters for even fewer moments than Zlatan) But fair enough if he has always been sloppy, as you say. Gives more weight to the argument that people should generally accept it and be able to talk about it and not be run out of the thread by a bunch of posters swinging in off his berries and unloading torrents of abuse as if these comments are heathen dark sorcery from a far off dimension.

 

[Zoo]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

This was obvious against Anderlecht.

 

[ivaldo]

Get ready for the moaners in 3,2,1...

 

[Man-United]

It's Jose's fault though. Playing him every fecking game and never resting him. He's not 20. We must use him more like we did with Scholes and Giggs but not as much rest as they got, but still rest him from time to time.

 

[GifLord]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Cassidy]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

This was obvious against Anderlecht.

Those who think he wouldn't stay and play less games next season need to see this.

 

[3KDré]

It's Jose's fault though. Playing him every fecking game and never resting him. He's not 20. We must use him more like we did with Scholes and Giggs but not as much rest as they got, but still rest him from time to time.

I am pretty sure he played that much because Zlatan wanted to.

Today, him not playing might be a blessing in disguise. It allows us to press them more effectively like we did in the FA cup.

 

[Zoo]

It's Jose's fault though. Playing him every fecking game and never resting him. He's not 20. We must use him more like we did with Scholes and Giggs but not as much rest as they got, but still rest him from time to time.

Well it just shows that Jose was trying to attack every competition.

Mourinho received a lot of criticism about the way he's used Rashford this season but the kid has had plenty of minutes, he didn't take his chance during Zlatan's suspension but now has another chance today.

 

[Fracture90]

Well it just shows that Jose was trying to attack every competition.

Mourinho received a lot of criticism about the way he's used Rashford this season but the kid has had plenty of minutes, he didn't take his chance during Zlatan's suspension but now has another chance today.

Rashford couldn't be effective in a system that was devised to accommodate Zlatan but today in a system devised to play to his strengths, he's been brilliant.

 

[lem8sh]

Todays performance showed that him leaving could well be beneficial in the long term.

 

[DatGuyRich]

Imagine a full season with a pacey clinical striker. Can see him being dropped in our away games against Arsenal, Spurs and City (hopefully.)