But we will be closing them down in our own half at least???? or are we just letting them pass to whoever they want and just stand there????. We have struggled to be compact all season. When they are in our half, they must be pressurised otherwise they will simply pick us off no matter how deep and compact we go. We need to put pressure and offer some threat.
Your team/tactics vs Bayern
- Thread starter Rozay
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Jones --- Vidic -- Evans -- Rafael
---------Carrick --Fellaini---------
--- Rooney -- Giggs -- Welbeck---
---------------RVP---------------
---------Carrick --Fellaini---------
--- Rooney -- Giggs -- Welbeck---
---------------RVP---------------
Just think we shouldn't leave our biggest weapon on the bench vs a coach who's notoriously vulnerable from set plays. It's a romantic idea that we press them and play beautiful counter attacking play but I don't know how realistic it is given that not other team has managed it in a meaningful game in the last year. Mourinho is an expert at beating Guardiola and even he plays very physical against him typically, and utilises players like Diego Milito who are great in the air
Also, if you recall the times before united have played Guardiola and tried to press, some fantastic united sides with the greatest manager of all time, and we get tired after a while and ended up finishing the game at a pedestrian pace. Maybe the pressing idea just isn't playing to our strengths if Carrick and Fellaini are our best CMs , and maybe we should try something different
Functionally, against Bayern, there's going to be little difference between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. About 70% of the time they're both going to be 4-5-1 or 6-3-1. When we have the ball it's going to be hard to define a shape. RvP and the wider players should get forward quickly - the central midfielder presumably will follow and hope to get in the box. At that point there's little or no functional difference between the formations.There is a huge difference in fact, 3 in the middle is exactly that, 3 midfielders not a striker dropping back and helping out. A 4-2-3-1 is 2 disciplined midfielders allowing the playmaker to have a bit more freedom. It would far more beneficial for Rooney to play on the wing otherwise he is only going to be chasing the ball in the middle and exhausting himself out. We saw against Liverpool (and most other teams this season) that Rooney dropping back and helping out does not work and we still get outplayed in midfield. You can get away with it against lesser opposition because you can attack them far more but quality opposition with quality midfielders such as Bayern will simply go right through us.
Have people not seen how we have been overrun in midfield this season? Good (and bad) teams have waltzed past our midfield with one pass and then put the defence under immense pressure. It still beggars belief there are people on this forum suggesting a Carrick-Fellani combination, have they not seen any of our games this season??? That is the most static combination you can get, Kroos, Schewiensteiger and Thiago will simply out pass and manoeuvre us. You might get away with it in football manager, but this is the real world. I would love to hear anyone suggesting that combination to explain how they will get the better of the Bayern midfield when they couldn't even get the better of Joe Allen and Jordan Henderson???!
When did I mention beautiful? I'm under no illusions, it will not be pretty and certainly not beautiful but Bayern are beatable. Arsenal played very well in the second leg. Mourinho has always offered the counter attack approach, soak the pressure, be disciplined defensively and then offer some form of threat on the counter. You must offer a threat otherwise they will be camped on our half all match. We are not San Marino, we can offer a counter attacking threat. I think Fellani would be great if you have perhaps 2 more mobile midfielders with him, but it's difficult with him and Carrick in the team. You have to pick the right players for the game, it's not necessarily your normal choice of players. E.g SAF dropped Rooney lays year because he knew Welbeck would be more effective and he was right. We must get the starting 11 spot on whatever combination it is.
But we have seen that combination in action against Liverpool and look how that turned out. There needs to be 3 midfields playing in the middle in my opinion.
That's why Rooney playing out wide will be more of a threat then playing in the middle because there he will simply be chasing the ball.
I thought it worked out ok, we soaked up pressure fairly well, if we could play the same vs Bayern i'd be ok with it. Liverpool had their first chance well into the second half. Their two goals that killed the game were nothing to do with our tactics. Minus Vidic and I'd say we'd be fine, altho if Madzukic plays then Vidic might be the man for the Bayern game. Pep mixes his team selection up it's really impossible to plan for any one line up. Could be Gotze/Muller/Manzukic up front, could be any numbers of CM combos. I just think if we played away at Bayern and only conceded the penos we conceded vs Liverpool I'd say it was a tactical success, but it's not a popular opinion around here because it's more fashionable to pretend liverpool carved us open at will for the first 60 minutes in the recent game
I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you, Liverpool outplayed us for the whole game and we managed 1 shot on goal. Do you think that is acceptable? Their midfield overran ours and their possession play was much better. Can you imagine what a better quality Bayern midfield will do to us??? Even SAF realised in CL and other top games that we must play 3 in the middle. If we play like we did against Liverpool then we might as well give up now.
Now I've actually come to post a prospective line up, I'm not even sure we have a team capable of getting a result. Evra was only going to let us down anyway with his half arsed defending, though our cover for him is non existent. Our midfield combinations are all unappealing, as well our wide options. I'd even have to opt for Valencia.
----------De Gea-----------
Rafael-Jones-Smalling-Evans
------Carrick-Fellaini-------
Valencia---Kagawa---Welbeck
----------Rooney-----------
With the stick he's been getting Cleverley has no chance of starting but a proper 3 man central midfield (with Fellaini and Carrick) is probably what we need to stop the scoreline from getting into double figures. Kagawa may have to be sacraficed from this.#
If we can get Nani fit and in form in the next 2 weeks before the game, he may be a better shout on the right.
----------De Gea-----------
Rafael-Jones-Smalling-Evans
------Carrick-Fellaini-------
Valencia---Kagawa---Welbeck
----------Rooney-----------
With the stick he's been getting Cleverley has no chance of starting but a proper 3 man central midfield (with Fellaini and Carrick) is probably what we need to stop the scoreline from getting into double figures. Kagawa may have to be sacraficed from this.#
If we can get Nani fit and in form in the next 2 weeks before the game, he may be a better shout on the right.
Well after the injury news. I've reduced our chances from 15% to 2%.
4-3-3. Rooney up top. Welbeck on the left. Nani/Valencia on the right. Carrick, Giggs plus one other in a midfield 3. Possibly Cleverley or Fletcher because they're good runners and decent when retaining possession - we'll need that.
4-3-3. Rooney up top. Welbeck on the left. Nani/Valencia on the right. Carrick, Giggs plus one other in a midfield 3. Possibly Cleverley or Fletcher because they're good runners and decent when retaining possession - we'll need that.
I would go with one of two formations. Either a 4-3-3 without a striker (kind of like what Jose does when he wants a draw) or a 5-4-1 where the front one is again someone who is not playing really like a striker. The first setup can be something like:
DDG
Rafael-Smalling-Ferdinand-Buttner
Giggs-Carrick-Jones
Valencia-Rooney-Welbeck
Jones, the quickest of the three midfielders will operate mostly towards the left side to help Buttner out. Rooney will have to play the game of his life because I'm thinking of him here as an attacking midfielder who drops back rather than a striker. Welbeck and Valencia on the wings because both are defensively sound and can give us pace on the counter.
The second setup:
DDG
Rafael-Smalling-Ferdinand-Jones-Buttner
Valencia-Carrick-Giggs-Welbeck
---------------Rooney
Same players but a different setup. Frustrate them, hit on the counter and score from a set piece. We can't possibly match them quality wise so we have to be smart about this and maximise our chances of going through.
DDG
Rafael-Smalling-Ferdinand-Buttner
Giggs-Carrick-Jones
Valencia-Rooney-Welbeck
Jones, the quickest of the three midfielders will operate mostly towards the left side to help Buttner out. Rooney will have to play the game of his life because I'm thinking of him here as an attacking midfielder who drops back rather than a striker. Welbeck and Valencia on the wings because both are defensively sound and can give us pace on the counter.
The second setup:
DDG
Rafael-Smalling-Ferdinand-Jones-Buttner
Valencia-Carrick-Giggs-Welbeck
---------------Rooney
Same players but a different setup. Frustrate them, hit on the counter and score from a set piece. We can't possibly match them quality wise so we have to be smart about this and maximise our chances of going through.
Put Kagawa as player-manager for the two matches and enrol all the senior players into a intensive language course in Japanese/German in order to understand Shinji when he goes about divulging Klopp's tactics against Bayern to the rest of his teammates.
Think they'll be a temptation to convince ourselves Giggs is our saviour after Wednesday, similarly to how we did so in 2011 before it became apparent he was out of his depth in midfield against top class opposition like Barca (or this time, Bayern). Of course same could be said about the rest of our midfielders.
Like I said in another thread. Smalling and Evans CB. Jones as CM because even though he is a headless chicken at times there he for me is better at pressing then Fellaini with his pace. Carrick and Rooney next to him.
We're not that desperate.
We will win by being more hardworking than Bayern. Moreover, being more unpredictibe and dynamic with the attacking triangle of Rooney, Welbeck and Van Persie in our attack. In addition, showing solidarity in the defense aspect of our games .
---------------------- David De Gea ------------------
Rafael(rb) ---- Smailling(rcb) --- Evans/Vidic(lcb) ---- Büttner(lb)
--------------Carrick(rdm)-------- Jones(ldm) ----------------
----Valencia(rm/ram) ----Rooney(cam/lam) ------------
------------- Van Persie(st) ---- Welbeck(st/cam/lam) -------------
Subs: Lindergaard, Ferdinand, Giggs, Cleverley, Kagawa, Januzai, Hernandez
* Start giving Büttner a runs of game and if he does well, start him as left back. Büttner is as bad defensivesly as Evra, so it is not a crime if he starts. He would at least make Robbern track back with his offensive foray in this natural role.
**Jones and Valencia to press opposition and become an aggressive presence in our midfield. Valencia to provide width when needed.
*** The attacking triangle. Rooney will mostly do the creating, while Van Persie and Welbeck builds upon their lethal partnership that cause the Madrid defense so much trouble in last year cpl. Utilizing the dynamism and movement of this trio to exploit Bayern defense.
Edit: Van Persie out...replace with Kagawa or (any inform attackers). We can still win, without van Persie because even though he scored a hat-trick against Olympiakos, his performance did not really set the world alight. If replaced by Kagawa, there will be a need for a more attacking threat than Valencia on the right.
.---------------------- David De Gea ------------------
Rafael(rb) ---- Smailling(rcb) --- Evans/Vidic(lcb) ---- Büttner(lb)
--------------Carrick(rdm)-------- Jones(ldm) ----------------
----Valencia(rm/ram) ----Rooney(cam/lam) ------------
------------- Van Persie(st) ---- Welbeck(st/cam/lam) -------------
Subs: Lindergaard, Ferdinand, Giggs, Cleverley, Kagawa, Januzai, Hernandez
* Start giving Büttner a runs of game and if he does well, start him as left back. Büttner is as bad defensivesly as Evra, so it is not a crime if he starts. He would at least make Robbern track back with his offensive foray in this natural role.
**Jones and Valencia to press opposition and become an aggressive presence in our midfield. Valencia to provide width when needed.
*** The attacking triangle. Rooney will mostly do the creating, while Van Persie and Welbeck builds upon their lethal partnership that cause the Madrid defense so much trouble in last year cpl. Utilizing the dynamism and movement of this trio to exploit Bayern defense.
Edit: Van Persie out...replace with Kagawa or (any inform attackers). We can still win, without van Persie because even though he scored a hat-trick against Olympiakos, his performance did not really set the world alight. If replaced by Kagawa, there will be a need for a more attacking threat than Valencia on the right.
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The front six has to be Carrick, Jones, Welbeck, Kagawa, Nani, and Rooney.
The defence is obviously just going to be whoever we can get fit, sadly.
edit: And we should treat the City tie as a rehearsal for Bayern, and set up as similarly as possible.
The defence is obviously just going to be whoever we can get fit, sadly.
edit: And we should treat the City tie as a rehearsal for Bayern, and set up as similarly as possible.
winner
Van Persie's out for 4-6 weeeks.
...bugger
I would probably play:
Off the ball we need to stay nice and compact. When we do get the ball, Bayern will press very high up the pitch, which means we will have very little time on the ball. This is where I'd want Fellaini to come in.
Ideally, when we get the ball, i'd want Fellaini to run up the pitch, leaving Giggs and Carrick to exchange passes. If somehow they can find time to pick a pass, I'd want them to be looking at hitting Fellaini, where you'd hope he'd be able to hold it up. This will hopefully allow our team to progress up the park. This is also where our wingers come into play. If all goes well and we're able to hit Fellaini and he can hold it up, we'd want our wingers exploiting the spaces left by Bayern's full backs.
Some may see it as negative, long ball football, a tactic is a strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific target. Therefore, I feel this is the best tactic we could use to maybe test Bayern.
If used properly, I really think Fellaini could be key in this game.
De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Jones - Evans
Carrick
Giggs - Fellaini
Valencia - Rooney - Welbeck
I expect Bayern to have a lot of the ball, home and away, therefore, we must make sure, first and foremost, we are defensively solid.Rafael - Smalling - Jones - Evans
Carrick
Giggs - Fellaini
Valencia - Rooney - Welbeck
Off the ball we need to stay nice and compact. When we do get the ball, Bayern will press very high up the pitch, which means we will have very little time on the ball. This is where I'd want Fellaini to come in.
Ideally, when we get the ball, i'd want Fellaini to run up the pitch, leaving Giggs and Carrick to exchange passes. If somehow they can find time to pick a pass, I'd want them to be looking at hitting Fellaini, where you'd hope he'd be able to hold it up. This will hopefully allow our team to progress up the park. This is also where our wingers come into play. If all goes well and we're able to hit Fellaini and he can hold it up, we'd want our wingers exploiting the spaces left by Bayern's full backs.
Some may see it as negative, long ball football, a tactic is a strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific target. Therefore, I feel this is the best tactic we could use to maybe test Bayern.
If used properly, I really think Fellaini could be key in this game.
Valencia is going to start this game if he's fit. I'm ready to put money on it.
Well now RVP is out;
----------------De Gea----------------
Rafael---Smalling---Vidic---Buttner
------Carrick---Giggs---Jones------
Valencia-------Rooney-------Welbeck
No RVP is a blow but who knows maybe a blessing in disguise...
----------------De Gea----------------
Rafael---Smalling---Vidic---Buttner
------Carrick---Giggs---Jones------
Valencia-------Rooney-------Welbeck
No RVP is a blow but who knows maybe a blessing in disguise...
I agree and never said we were in any way good vs Liverpool, just saying we soaked up the pressure fine and they really struggled to get past us. That's not how we should be playing at Home vs Liverpool, but if we could do it away vs Bayern it would be a good performance. Nothing to do with our attacking or how many shots we got on goal at all, just to do with how much we soaked up pressure and stopped them playing.
That's more or less the team I'd go with, except I might consider Vidic.
As you said, Fellaini could be an interesting option here. I'd try and keep him involved in the midfield and try to turn it into a dogfight in there. When we have the ball allow him to move forward and Rooney to drop in behind, with Welbeck coming in off the wing. I'd try to give their centrebacks multiple different issues with Welbeck in behind, Fellaini's strength and Rooney peeling off into the holes. That's definitely their weakness in the centre of defence.
Team or tactics won't make much difference, we're going to be absolutely destroyed over the two legs. Its going to be painful viewing.
Loving the optimism. To be honest, I can't say I blame you, though. We've been poor this season, and while it may be unrealistic, anything can happen over the two legs.
Valencia and Welbeck have to start, we need real pace. I'd have them supporting Rooney with a central playmaker in behind supporting the 2 in midfield, probably Giggs or Kagawa. Rooney, Giggs/Kagawa and Welbeck would interchange.
I wouldn't have Kagawa anywhere near the starting line up.
Nah, shocks are always possible, however unlikely.
Moyes is going to have to be spot on tactically though. His defenders have rubbished claims that he is inept tactically, so this is his chance to prove it. If he can negate Bayern's threat somewhat then we have a chance.
The other side of that coin is getting the most from our players. We need to put in our two best performances of the season to have a chance. This means being motivated and being well organised. Again, this is on Moyes to step up.
Finally, we'll need a feck load of luck. Unfortunately we seem to have the unluckiest manager on the planet.
So yeah. We're probably screwed but there's always a very, very, very slight chance.
So is RVP being injured considering a blessing in disguise by those who are adamant that we can't play both him and Rooney together in the big matches?
Mad Winger will probably spend the next few weeks in giddy excitement about Kagawa finally having his chance to shine, and then his brain will finally explode when we play Fellaini as the most advanced of a midfield 3.
Mad Winger will probably spend the next few weeks in giddy excitement about Kagawa finally having his chance to shine, and then his brain will finally explode when we play Fellaini as the most advanced of a midfield 3.
4-2-3-1
4-3-3
De Gea
Smalling - Jones - Ferdinand - Rafael
Carrick - Giggs
Valencia - Kagawa - Welbeck
Rooney
Swap Welbeck with Rooney and put Kagawa out left, another option. Hernandez in with a shout? Nani? Smalling - Jones - Ferdinand - Rafael
Carrick - Giggs
Valencia - Kagawa - Welbeck
Rooney
4-3-3
De Gea
Smalling - Ferdinand - Jones - Rafael
Fletcher - Carrick - Giggs
Valencia - Rooney - Welbeck
Smalling - Ferdinand - Jones - Rafael
Fletcher - Carrick - Giggs
Valencia - Rooney - Welbeck
De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Vidic - Giggs
Carrick
Fellaini - Kagawa
Januzaj - Rooney - Welbeck
Or
De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Ferdinand - Evans - Vidic - Buttner
Fletcher - Carrick - Jones
Fellaini
Rafael - Smalling - Vidic - Giggs
Carrick
Fellaini - Kagawa
Januzaj - Rooney - Welbeck
Or
De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Ferdinand - Evans - Vidic - Buttner
Fletcher - Carrick - Jones
Fellaini
This is really going to test Moyes' tactical ability, probably the biggest test of his career. I can't wait to see how it'll play out. Personally I'd opt for the following, the only exception possibly being Giggs, but after the shift he put in against Olympiakos then he's way ahead of anyone else we have for that position.
Pack the midfield, put fast players on either side of Rooney. Pray.
Ddg
Rafael-Jones-Smalling-Buttner
---Fellaini-Carrick-Fletcher---
Valencia--------------Welbeck
-----------Rooney----------
Defend and hope we catch them on a counter.
Rafael-Jones-Smalling-Buttner
---Fellaini-Carrick-Fletcher---
Valencia--------------Welbeck
-----------Rooney----------
Defend and hope we catch them on a counter.
100% agree with this team.
..............................de gea...........................
Rafael.....Ferdinand.......vidic............buttner
..................Jones..............Carrick................
Valencia..............fellaini....................welbeck
..............................Rooney............................
defend and when the opportunity arises hope fellainis height gives us an out ball from defence.
Plus Rio vidic Jones Carrick fellaini and welbeck can pose a threat on any set pieces
And pray bayern have a bad day
Rafael.....Ferdinand.......vidic............buttner
..................Jones..............Carrick................
Valencia..............fellaini....................welbeck
..............................Rooney............................
defend and when the opportunity arises hope fellainis height gives us an out ball from defence.
Plus Rio vidic Jones Carrick fellaini and welbeck can pose a threat on any set pieces
And pray bayern have a bad day