[Nighteyes]

Smalling is clearly better right now but Jones' potential and talent is seriously underplayed on the caf in the midst of all the "OMG He's sooooooo reckless lol" type of posts.

O'shea did a job for us in midfield as well, even more than Jones. Midfield is not Jones' natural and best position and not one you expect to seem him play in anytime soon so what does it add to the argument that he has more potential than Smalling?

Midfield is not his best position, no, but unlike many others I never thought he looked out of place when he played there. Seemed to me Fergie agreed as well give he even played Jones as an AM as well at one point.

Jones has it in him to become a seriously impressive defender. Just a question of getting it all together and staying fit for a length of time.

 

[Rossa]

Ok, so what marks Jones out as the bigger talent? Smalling is faster,stronger, better in the air and better one on one and also reads the game better.

 

[villain]

I don't even understand this tbh and its said a lot. I always thought Smalling looked more polished than Jones in defence, and that Jones was just more of an old fashioned English CB who threw himself at everything. Why exactly does Jones have more 'raw' potential (then and/or now?)

You e said it in the second sentence and I agree, Smalling has always looked more polished than Jones, maybe his style of defending in comparison to Jones.
Jones has always come across as having mkre rough edges that needed to be smoothed out.
Like I said to me, Smalling has more attributes that can't be taught easily - reading of the game, calm in a tricky situation etc, which would mean his potential isn't as raw as Jones

 

[SteveW]

Ok, so what marks Jones out as the bigger talent? Smalling is faster,stronger, better in the air and better one on one and also reads the game better.

It seems almost unfair to put him against Smalling. I can't really think of a defender in world football that matches Smalling in any of the first four areas you just mentioned. His physical attributes are insane.

That said Jones is a very quick and strong player in his own right. He's a bloody talented defender too. It just seems to me that a mixture of injuries and internet memes have turned him into a punchline at the moment. I think unfairly. He was playing very well at the start of last season before injuries took over and he finished the season well. The potential is definitely there.

 

[Brwned]

O'shea did a job for us in midfield as well, even more than Jones. Midfield is not Jones' natural and best position and not one you expect to seem him play in anytime soon so what does it add to the argument that he has more potential than Smalling?

I wasn't arguing anything of the sort. I was just refuting the suggestion he was just your typical English centre back. O'Shea playing there under Sir Alex means little given Rafael also played there among many other very strange choices. Jones on the other hand was picked to play there in a variety of roles by every manager.

Capello even compared him to Baresi in part because of his ability to play in either role and because of his reading of the game. I suppose he was just misled by Jones' last ditch tackles like all the other Neanderthal-esque British football fans.

 

[Nickosaur]

It seems almost unfair to put him against Smalling. I can't really think of a defender in world football that matches Smalling in any of the first four areas you just mentioned. His physical attributes are insane.

That said Jones is a very quick and strong player in his own right. He's a bloody talented defender too. It just seems to me that a mixture of injuries and internet memes have turned him into a punchline at the moment. I think unfairly. He was playing very well at the start of last season before injuries took over and he finished the season well. The potential is definitely there.

Agree with everything you've said here.

 

[ZDwyr]

Ok, so what marks Jones out as the bigger talent? Smalling is faster,stronger, better in the air and better one on one and also reads the game better.

I think this might be true currently, but I think Jones has the potential to be even better in this regard. I am a huge Smalling fan but early last season Jones was leading the league in interceptions I think. Sometimes he misreads situations and gets himself out of position but he is still a bit younger than Smalling, in time I think he will be better in this attribute.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think this might be true currently, but I think Jones has the potential to be even better in this regard. I am a huge Smalling fan but early last season Jones was leading the league in interceptions I think. Sometimes he misreads situations and gets himself out of position but he is still a bit younger than Smalling, in time I think he will be better in this attribute.

Statistically the best defender in the league last year. Highest interceptions and tackles of all the defenders with Clichy and Zabaleta I believe but I just had a quick look right now.

This year Smalling has more successful tackles than Jones and Jones has more successful interceptions while Jones statistics are a bit off I think due to how they count sub games as full games. He's made 10 tackles/interceptions in 124 minutes(The available stats) which would in reality be 7.29 tackles/interceptions per game then if I didn't get it wrong.
Obviously nearly useless to reach for straws when he's only played so few games this season, but he's continued on the track of last season at least.

Smalling has played full matches so unless they are wrong there too for some other reason he is averaging 4.6 tackles/Interceptions per 90 minutes.

Which of course doesn't at all mean Smalling is better or worse, personally I really like them both and I am just happy we have them at the club.

 

[suheilsworld]

Lukaku did not know what hit him...Dayum!! The best part about his game is that he dominates strikers but is not aggressive or arrogant about it. Does not get wind up and just kills the confidence of the opposition through his game and not his aura. Although I would like to see some mean streak in his eyes the way Vida had.

 

[Loublaze]

Ok, so what marks Jones out as the bigger talent? Smalling is faster,stronger, better in the air and better one on one and also reads the game better.

Smalling is better than Jones in every aspect of the game and always has been. I agree with you

 

[Sammyjunn]

Jones doesnt come close to Smalling imo, he'll remain the 'talent' for a few years remaining. But defensively Smalling is better in everything with a decent distance.

 

[CG1010]

I've grown tired of trying to convince people that there was no 'post-City turning point' at all, but given that even many of our own fans seem to think so, then I doubt there is hope. The media never got it with him, but I have maintained that he is our best centre-half for a few years, even in the latter years of our legendary pair.

From his very first season he has been outstanding at centre-half, pretty much every single time he's played there. He's had big games against big teams, and apart from Benteke once where he pushed him over to set up a goal, I've never seen a centre-forward get the better of him in a game. He's unbeatable on the deck and in the air, and has been since he was proving it against Drogba in a Fulham shirt. People are just getting it because the media are absolute idiots, and also because United have been shite for most of his time in the first team here, which means all of our players except the ones who have performed at 'big international tournaments' are not good enough either.

You'd have to convince me too. I remember that I had grown pessimistic about Smalling by the time the City game came, and in fact lost all hope when he stupidly got the red card. In fact it was true for many others here. Smalling had seemed to regress a bit during the Moyes season (tbf, everyone did) and till the City match. This was very similar to Evans except that Smalling had the mental strength to learn/grow out of his slump whereas Evans didn't (obviously having more natural talent helps too!).

I don't disagree with your second paragraph as I have always believed in his natural talent. But he hadn't applied it consistently and excellently, even when he played CB. For example, he showed he had great strength but never was consistently dominant against strikers, he showed he could tackle but was never so impregnable as now. Most importantly, he had lost all confidence while being on the ball, which was then a big problem as teams were pressing our CBs into submission all the time. Like somebody said, its only after the City game last season that everything came together for him - including staying away from injuries.

 

[Rozay]

You'd have to convince me too. I remember that I had grown pessimistic about Smalling by the time the City game came, and in fact lost all hope when he stupidly got the red card. In fact it was true for many others here. Smalling had seemed to regress a bit during the Moyes season (tbf, everyone did) and till the City match. This was very similar to Evans except that Smalling had the mental strength to learn/grow out of his slump whereas Evans didn't (obviously having more natural talent helps too!).

I don't disagree with your second paragraph as I have always believed in his natural talent. But he hadn't applied it consistently and excellently, even when he played CB. For example, he showed he had great strength but never was consistently dominant against strikers, he showed he could tackle but was never so impregnable as now. Most importantly, he had lost all confidence while being on the ball, which was then a big problem as teams were pressing our CBs into submission all the time. Like somebody said, its only after the City game last season that everything came together for him - including staying away from injuries.

He was excellent just the week before (the City game) against Chelsea.

He was excellent in the Allianz the season before in our biggest game, and has generally always been unbeatable in my view.

 

[jem]

People were laughing when the thread about him being possibly the best CB in the league was made. Have said it since they both joined the club, for all of Jones's hype, Smalling will end up the much ore accomplished CB. Absolutely excellent.

You might be right, but if there's anything that Smalling's success has taught us, it is that we need to be patient with young, talented players. Jones is both young and talented, and if he can stay healthy, he may well follow in Smalling's path. Then we'd be sorted for the next 5-7 years at CB.

 

[Trizy]

 

[Dion]

If he knew how to organise a defence like Vidic or Kompany he'd be world class, his individual defending is as good as anyones now.

 

[Adam-Utd]

There's a quick easy way to answer who's better. Who would we miss more, Smalling or Jones?.

Smalling by a landslide. I do like Jones and think him and Smalling could make a great partnership for years to come, but Smalling just has everything now. He has really matured and his concentration/positioning has come on leaps and bounds. I feel he now believes he is the "leader" of the defence, the added importance has taken him a step beyond.

 

[CG1010]

If he knew how to organise a defence like Vidic or Kompany he'd be world class, his individual defending is as good as anyones now.

He is already quite good at organising the defense. In fact LVG alluded to his defensive leadership while making him the 3rd captain and Neville also pointed this out in his fantastic analysis of last season's win against City. Plus playing with Blind can't harm his organisational/intelligence skills!

There's a quick easy way to answer who's better. Who would we miss more, Smalling or Jones?.

Smalling by a landslide. I do like Jones and think him and Smalling could make a great partnership for years to come, but Smalling just has everything now. He has really matured and his concentration/positioning has come on leaps and bounds. I feel he now believes he is the "leader" of the defence, the added importance has taken him a step beyond.

Obviously Smalling is a better player currently than Jones. The question is about potential, and who might end up being a better player. Jones being younger than Smalling could surpass him as CBs can mature and develop rapidly even till 25-26 (as Smalling attests to). Imagine how good our defense would be, if that happens.

 

[Kag]

Smalling is better than Jones in every aspect of the game and always has been. I agree with you

Agreed. I've maintained a similar stance on this for years now.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Obviously Smalling is a better player currently than Jones. The question is about potential, and who might end up being a better player. Jones being younger than Smalling could surpass him as CBs can mature and develop rapidly even till 25-26 (as Smalling attests to). Imagine how good our defense would be, if that happens.

Honestly think smalling has the bigger potential anyway, he's taller, stronger, quicker, arguably tackles just as well and is very good 1 v 1. Jones won't be far off and I think they will both be amazing, but his ability to injure himself in nearly every game will hamper him a bit. He needs to learn when to stay in position and when to try and intercept, but apart from that he doesn't have many weakness. He will improve that wreckless nature with experience.

 

[DWelbz19]

Are there any CBs stronger in a one on one with an attacker? I've said it for a few seasons now but I genuinely think he's the best at this now. I never worry when a pacey or tricky forward (if he ever gets the chance to) isolates him. He's always in control of the situation. I remember the GIFs from last year - Willian, Sterling etc...

 

[Kill 'em all]

Now, if only good old Phil could have a similar turn around.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Are there any CBs stronger in a one on one with an attacker? I've said it for a few seasons now but I genuinely think he's the best at this now. I never worry when a pacey or tricky forward (if he ever gets the chance to) isolates him. He's always in control of the situation. I remember the GIFs from last year - Willian, Sterling etc...

I think because he's so quick he can basically shepherd them to an area he wants and say "go on go passed me". Many cannot though.

 

[Dion]

He is already quite good at organising the defense. In fact LVG alluded to his defensive leadership while making him the 3rd captain and Neville also pointed this out in his fantastic analysis of last season's win against City. Plus playing with Blind can't harm his organisational/intelligence skills!

He might be "quite good" at organising defences, but that isn't the level you aspire to at a club that wants to win the league or CL. You only have to look at the impact Kompany has on City when he's fit or what Terry did to Chelsea last year despite being way past his best. A few confidence boosting quotes from LvG and one of Neville's analysis (anyone remember his "silent destroyer" nonsense on Rooney?) doesn't change the evidence we see on the pitch every day.

We should be looking for an organiser next to Smalling if we want to take our defence to the next level.

 

[CG1010]

He might be "quite good" at organising defences, but that isn't the level you aspire to at a club that wants to win the league or CL. You only have to look at the impact Kompany has on City when he's fit or what Terry did to Chelsea last year despite being way past his best. A few confidence boosting quotes from LvG and one of Neville's analysis (anyone remember his "silent destroyer" nonsense on Rooney?) doesn't change the evidence we see on the pitch every day.

We should be looking for an organiser next to Smalling if we want to take our defence to the next level.

What evidence are you talking about, and how do you judge ability of his organisation skills, which are very subjective? Our defense has looked quite organised this season (barring Arsenal - which was a more midfield issue IMO, and anyway a one-off game). We have let in 1 more goal than the lowest goals conceded in the league this season till now. And I wouldn't comment on our inability to judge somebody's impact on defense when missing games, so as to not jinx it!

 

[Dion]

What evidence are you talking about, and how do you judge ability of his organisation skills, which are very subjective? Our defense has looked quite organised this season (barring Arsenal - which was a more midfield issue IMO, and anyway a one-off game). We have let in 1 more goal than the lowest goals conceded in the league this season till now. And I wouldn't comment on our inability to judge somebody's impact on defense when missing games, so as to not jinx it!

Our continued defensive fragility when we're actually forced to defend. We keep clean sheets by keeping the ball, when we're actually defending we rely lots on Smalling and De Gea's individual brilliance. Our defenders are guilty of doing their own thing in a similar way that City do when Kompany is out, it was particularly evident against PSV and Arsenal but it's true other times.

This kind of shows what I mean on the defensive front, we defend by keeping the ball because we're not great when we don't have it. That's clearly not because Smalling is a bad defender, it's because we're bad as a defensive unit.

 

[CG1010]

Our continued defensive fragility when we're actually forced to defend. We keep clean sheets by keeping the ball, when we're actually defending we rely lots on Smalling and De Gea's individual brilliance. Our defenders are guilty of doing their own thing in a similar way that City do when Kompany is out, it was particularly evident against PSV and Arsenal but it's true other times.

This kind of shows what I mean on the defensive front, we defend by keeping the ball because we're not great when we don't have it. That's clearly not because Smalling is a bad defender, it's because we're bad as a defensive unit.

The chart shows absolutely nothing of what you are saying. Shots against us are low because we are effective in defense and in any case we are so close to your ideal City.

I disagree at so many levels from your point of view, so I would just list them out:

1. I don't think we rely on individual brilliance of Smalling and De Gea. Blind, Shaw, Darmian and the holding midfielder have been very good, though not as good as Smalling obviously.

2. We aren't fragile when not in possession. I think you are going by the Arsenal game a bit too much.

3. Our possession game itself lends us to be a bit more vulnerable to counter attacks, due to the high line and playing our from the back. But that's a trade off we have chosen and the evidence is that its working.

 

[villain]

Our continued defensive fragility when we're actually forced to defend. We keep clean sheets by keeping the ball, when we're actually defending we rely lots on Smalling and De Gea's individual brilliance. Our defenders are guilty of doing their own thing in a similar way that City do when Kompany is out, it was particularly evident against PSV and Arsenal but it's true other times.

This kind of shows what I mean on the defensive front, we defend by keeping the ball because we're not great when we don't have it. That's clearly not because Smalling is a bad defender, it's because we're bad as a defensive unit.

Is this meant to be a negative?

We face less shots per match, therefore we concede less goals per match seems like common sense to me, and a good foundation to build on. And we're in the same company as the league leaders - who many are calling the strong favourites to win the title.

This chart doesn't necessarily mean we only defend by keeping the ball - because as someone mentioned earlier in the thread our CB's have a high number of both interceptions & tackles - which backs up what this chart shows that we don't face many shots, because a lot of the time the opposition doesn't get a chance to shoot. And if they do, then we've got a World Class GK in DDG for them to face.

I wouldn't call that fragile, considering at the start of this season we conceded the fewest amount of goals by any team in the league since November last year, and it took a few games to concede at all in the league - we're not fragile by any means.
We're difficult to break down, and even harder to dominate.

 

[Dion]

Is this meant to be a negative?

No, it's called playing to your strengths.

 

[Skills]

Vidic had far more to work with. Edwin, Rio and Evra were organisers themselves.

Smalling's by far the most senior defender at the club as a 25 year old. He's got a long time to develop the kind of organisation skills that Rio and Vidic displayed in there late 20s and early 30s.

The evidence so far is extremely encouraging. Every single one of our defenders have looked far more comfortable playing next to him than anyone else - including the likes of McNair and Blackett.

 

[villain]

No, it's called playing to your strengths.

You misunderstand me.

I don't see how the chart shows anything negative, and I definitely don't see how it shows that we're defensively fragile.

 

[Dion]

The chart shows absolutely nothing of what you are saying. Shots against us are low because we are effective in defense and in any case we are so close to your ideal City.

I disagree at so many levels from your point of view, so I would just list them out:

1. I don't think we rely on individual brilliance of Smalling and De Gea. Blind, Shaw, Darmian and the holding midfielder have been very good, though not as good as Smalling obviously.

2. We aren't fragile when not in possession. I think you are going by the Arsenal game a bit too much.

3. Our possession game itself lends us to be a bit more vulnerable to counter attacks, due to the high line and playing our from the back. But that's a trade off we have chosen and the evidence is that its working.

City aren't an ideal, Kompany hasn't started since the middle of last month.

1. Individual excellent performances don't disprove the issue. How many times was Shaw MotM in a game we lost?

2. We are, we consistently dominate possession and we concede goals at a proportionally higher rate relative to the amount of defending we have to do. The Arsenal game wasn't the clearest example, it was just a very obvious combination of a tactical failure and our actual issues. Southampton, PSV and Swansea were the ideal examples where our defensive organisation let us down when it was exposed.

3. Arsenal play in a similar (if not more so) high style and yet cope far better. This is because as a defensive unit they're more cohesive.

 

[Dion]

You misunderstand me.

I don't see how the chart shows anything negative, and I definitely don't see how it shows that we're defensively fragile.

It shows that we're in the bottom half of teams when it comes to conceding goals when we allow teams to get a shot off, consider that we have by far the best goalkeeper in the league as well and you see that when our defence breaks down it's usually fatal. It's good management that we use our ability to retain the ball to limit teams opportunities to actually attack us however, which is why our defensive record overall is good but with notable blips.

 

[JPRouve]

We are, we consistently dominate possession and we concede goals at a proportionally higher rate relative to the amount of defending we have to do.

This part is normal and the chart that you provided shows that most teams on the right of the charts are also on the bottom half, Crystal Palace are real freaks.

 

[Cassidy]

Our continued defensive fragility when we're actually forced to defend. We keep clean sheets by keeping the ball, when we're actually defending we rely lots on Smalling and De Gea's individual brilliance. Our defenders are guilty of doing their own thing in a similar way that City do when Kompany is out, it was particularly evident against PSV and Arsenal but it's true other times.

This kind of shows what I mean on the defensive front, we defend by keeping the ball because we're not great when we don't have it. That's clearly not because Smalling is a bad defender, it's because we're bad as a defensive unit.

I disagree with what this chart is saying tbh, or actually what you seem to be extrapolating from it.
So we don't face many shots per match, but of the shots we face we conceed quite often, fine.
That doesn't mean we are poor as a defensive unit though, that is a very big leap in terms of an assumption made.

As a defensive unit, I think we are actually one of the better teams, (we do go to shit from time to time) but off the ball we are generally well organised.

What you need to see is the quality of chances we conceed and how often we conceed them, vs how often we don't have posession of the ball. For instance I believe vs Everton we had less posession than they did? Or it was pretty much even or something (I may be wrong here)

 

[Dion]

Vidic had far more to work with. Edwin, Rio and Evra were organisers themselves.

Vidic did this when paired with Evans and others, as did Ferdinand. We happened to have 3 natural leaders at the back at the time, doesn't especially detract from the point when there are far more obvious examples (Terry last year) of individually inferior players having the same effect.

Smalling's by far the most senior defender at the club as a 25 year old. He's got a long time to develop the kind of organisation skills that Rio and Vidic displayed in there late 20s and early 30s.

The evidence so far is extremely encouraging. Every single one of our defenders have looked far more comfortable playing next to him than anyone else - including the likes of McNair and Blackett.

Hopefully, would have if he had a consistent partner, that's for sure. But as for him making others better, how many times has a central defender played alongside anyone who wasn't Smalling this season? It's difficult to make comparisons.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Dion]

This part is normal and the chart that you provided shows that most teams on the right of the charts are also on the bottom half, Crystal Palace are real freaks.

It's not normal for a team at the top of the league. Ideally you want to be in the top left of the graph, it's no surprise that those on the right are in the bottom half. Only City pre-Kompany were actually there though, which is unsurprising given the Premier League so far this season has been defensively a relative shambles.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Haha, love that.

 

[Dion]

I disagree with what this chart is saying tbh, or actually what you seem to be extrapolating from it.
So we don't face many shots per match, but of the shots we face we conceed quite often, fine.
That doesn't mean we are poor as a defensive unit though, that is a very big leap in terms of an assumption made.

As a defensive unit, I think we are actually one of the better teams, (we do go to shit from time to time) but off the ball we are generally well organised.

What you need to see is the quality of chances we conceed and how often we conceed them, vs how often we don't have posession of the ball. For instance I believe vs Everton we had less posession than they did? Or it was pretty much even or something (I may be wrong here)

We had marginally more possession, but the Everton game was a notable shift in our tactics. We switched to having Jones at the back and playing in a more conservative shape, in recognition to the fact that our "keep-ball" tactics failed against Arsenal and have been ineffective against Everton and other teams who move the ball forward quickly before.

 

[JPRouve]

@Dion there is something interesting about your charts, at the exception of Chelsea and Norwich all the team on the right half are also on the bottom half of the possession ratio stats, Crystal Palace are two freak teams, Chelsea are clearly dreadful defensively, but Crystal Palace are interesting because they concede a lot of opportunities, can't keep the ball( or really don't want to) but don't concede often, they either played against weak teams or the goalkeeper is exceptional.