Real Time With Bill Maher

Carolina Red

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I didn't say they were doing anything illegal and nobody would begin to argue that the gun is sentient and is going to start shooting if not locked away. Anyone who started trying to argue that would be an idiot carrying out a completely pointless exercise. Using an argument that nobody even tried to say as a way of avoiding the actual discussion which is that it increases the risk massively of accidents occurring either with themselves or with their children. Now if people say 'hey that's fine, I accept that doing this means it's more likely I will have an accident or my child will shoot himself in the face' then fair enough. They're dickheads, whatever like you said it's not illegal to just keep a loaded gun on the table. But what actually happens is that they come back with 'but my guns are locked away and stored safely because I'm a responsible gun owner'. Which renders your point about leaving them on the table moot, because nobody admits to doing that. The discussion is usually centred around a gun being locked away not being able to protect you unless you have it on you. Which carries a huge risk with it. Which most people don't admit to being okay with.
I'm not saying you or anyone else said that. I'm just pointing out the argument that would be made to point out that there is no danger in having a loaded gun in the open unless you do something to it to make it fire. I've been going into the woods and sitting there with a loaded gun in my lap since I was about 12. It wasn't dangerous unless I did something that I had been taught not to.

Calling people names because they have a different comfort level around guns doesn't really do anything to further the debate. And again, people have different circumstances that dictate their storage of guns. Man who lives by himself has a loaded gun sitting on the coffee table. Big deal? I think not. Family man with toddlers around the house has a loaded gun sitting on the coffee table. Big deal? I think so. 2 totally different circumstances there.
 

DenisIrwin

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I wonder how many americans know the reason gun ownership is legal there; how many are actually aware of the second amendment, and what it actually says. It is intended to support the ability to raise a militia for national defense. Would that fact surprise most americans? The vast majority probably wouldn't give two hoots. Some would no doubt threaten to blow your head off if you suggested taking that right off them. Crazies.
 

Carolina Red

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I wonder how many americans know the reason gun ownership is legal there; how many are actually aware of the second amendment, and what it actually says. It is intended to support the ability to raise a militia for national defense. Would that fact surprise most americans? The vast majority probably wouldn't give two hoots. Some would no doubt threaten to blow your head off if you suggested taking that right off them. Crazies.
The Constitution and Bill of Rights is taught in several social studies classes throughout their time in school.
 

DenisIrwin

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The Constitution and Bill of Rights is taught in several social studies classes throughout their time in school.
Which "well regulated militia" are you a part of? The neccessity to maintain a well regulated militia is the reason, given under the second amendment, that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It follows that if no such well regulated militia exists, no such protection of the right to keep and bear arms exists either.
 

Zarlak

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I'm not saying you or anyone else said that. I'm just pointing out the argument that would be made to point out that there is no danger in having a loaded gun in the open unless you do something to it to make it fire. I've been going into the woods and sitting there with a loaded gun in my lap since I was about 12. It wasn't dangerous unless I did something that I had been taught not to.

Calling people names because they have a different comfort level around guns doesn't really do anything to further the debate. And again, people have different circumstances that dictate their storage of guns. Man who lives by himself has a loaded gun sitting on the coffee table. Big deal? I think not. Family man with toddlers around the house has a loaded gun sitting on the coffee table. Big deal? I think so. 2 totally different circumstances there.
Statistics show this just isn't true, unfortunately. Of course guns don't do anything unless you do something to make it fire. These are useless statements that are obviously true and nobody for one second believed otherwise. The point is that children regularly do things that make them fire. Adults shoot themselves, children shoot themselves. Statistics show you are more likely to use it on yourself or a family member than anybody else. Their comfort level is completely irrelevant.
 

Carolina Red

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Which "well regulated militia" are you a part of? The neccessity to maintain a well regulated militia is the reason, given under the second amendment, that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It follows that if no such well regulated militia exists, no such protection of the right to keep and bear arms exists either.
How familiar are you with the Heller decision?
 

Gambit

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It's the fact that they never play upon the well regulated militia part of the text that could answer all the problems. The words "Regulated" and "Militia" have huge bearing. Have to understand though, their culture is different and having guns is part of it. As stated American children are taught the constitution and Bill of rights something that we never touch upon in our schools in our own countries with similar voracity.
 

Carolina Red

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Statistics show this just isn't true, unfortunately. Of course guns don't do anything unless you do something to make it fire. These are useless statements that are obviously true and nobody for one second believed otherwise. The point is that children regularly do things that make them fire. Adults shoot themselves, children shoot themselves. Statistics show you are more likely to use it on yourself or a family member than anybody else. Their comfort level is completely irrelevant.
Oh believe me, I'm well aware that people for some reason have a hard time keeping their booger picker off the boom button.

I have a cousin who will never go hunting with me again due to a hole he put in the bottom of my dad's truck.
 

Zarlak

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Oh believe me, I'm well aware that people for some reason have a hard time keeping their booger picker off the boom button.

I have a cousin who will never go hunting with me again due to a hole he put in the bottom of my dad's truck.
...which is the reason that guns should not be left loaded on a table. This happens every day, endlessly. Peoples confidence levels or comfort around guns should be irrelevant to the fact that accidents can and do regularly happen.
 

Carolina Red

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Have to understand though, their culture is different and having guns is part of it. As stated American children are taught the constitution and Bill of rights something that we never touch upon in our schools in our own countries with similar voracity.
What I asked DenisIrwin about is fundamental towards what you've said about "well regulated" and "militia"

And yes. That is definitely part of culture. There is a quote by Thomas Jefferson in a letter he wrote to a Frenchman during the Revolution saying that the reason we'd gotten the better of the British in some of our battles was that we actually knew how to aim because as Americans we had known guns since childhood.
 

Carolina Red

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...which is the reason that guns should not be left loaded on a table. This happens every day, endlessly. Peoples confidence levels or comfort around guns should be irrelevant to the fact that accidents can and do regularly happen.
There is though another argument that if you do not allow comfort around guns should not become so comfortable that you forget to maintain barrel and trigger discipline that nothing bad will happen.

Again, personal preferences.
 

Zarlak

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There is though another argument that if you do not allow comfort around guns should not become so comfortable that you forget to maintain barrel and trigger discipline that nothing bad will happen.

Again, personal preferences.
I'd be very surprised to meet someone who honestly thought that was more important than their child's life. Most people I've spoken to who are so in favour of guns admit in an instant they'd rather have them locked away than within reach of their children. But then that opens the can of worms again about how much does it protect you when it's not on your person.
 

Carolina Red

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I'd be very surprised to meet someone who honestly thought that was more important than their child's life. Most people I've spoken to who are so in favour of guns admit in an instant they'd rather have them locked away than within reach of their children. But then that opens the can of worms again about how much does it protect you when it's not on your person.
Yes it does.

As I have said, I grew up in a house where there was a gun in each room. I had no idea where they were until I became old enough to accept that responsibility and my dad showed me. They had been there the whole time though, safely put away where I could not access them, but where he easily could.

When I became old enough to learn about guns, my dad and granddads were very up front and adamant about the dangers of handling a gun the wrong way. They taught me lessons that are habitual to me now. You could hand me a gun from out of a gun store display case and the first thing I do is safety check it.

A great deal of responsibility goes into owning guns, and especially into having them in the home for self defense. My biggest issue with the people who end up having a negligent discharge is that most of the time they have no respect for the fundamental rules of handling a firearm.
 

DenisIrwin

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The majority opinion of the Supreme Court in the Heller decision...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html
I just found this, admittedly on wikipedia, but it does ring true with me on this:

J. Harvie Wilkinson III, chief judge of United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, consents to Posner's analysis, stating that Heller "encourages Americans to do what conservative jurists warned for years they should not do: bypass the ballot and seek to press their political agenda in the courts."[67]
 

Carolina Red

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I just found this, admittedly on wikipedia, but it does ring true with me on this:

J. Harvie Wilkinson III, chief judge of United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, consents to Posner's analysis, stating that Heller "encourages Americans to do what conservative jurists warned for years they should not do: bypass the ballot and seek to press their political agenda in the courts."[67]
I would say that both sides of the aisle have been guilty of pressing their political agendas in the Courts since our country's establishment.

It is the Court's job to determine what the Constitution says in the midst of the political agendas. If you read the evidence present in the majority opinion, I think you will find that the 2nd Amendment has always protected an individual right, as expressed by the Court in 2008.
 

Javi

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As I have said, I grew up in a house where there was a gun in each room. I had no idea where they were until I became old enough to accept that responsibility and my dad showed me. They had been there the whole time though, safely put away where I could not access them, but where he easily could..
Ever used them?
 

Zarlak

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Yes it does.

As I have said, I grew up in a house where there was a gun in each room. I had no idea where they were until I became old enough to accept that responsibility and my dad showed me. They had been there the whole time though, safely put away where I could not access them, but where he easily could.

When I became old enough to learn about guns, my dad and granddads were very up front and adamant about the dangers of handling a gun the wrong way. They taught me lessons that are habitual to me now. You could hand me a gun from out of a gun store display case and the first thing I do is safety check it.

A great deal of responsibility goes into owning guns, and especially into having them in the home for self defense. My biggest issue with the people who end up having a negligent discharge is that most of the time they have no respect for the fundamental rules of handling a firearm.
I agree with you on that, but my point is essentially 'great, I'm happy for you.' Your positive experience and your dad's confidence and ability does not mean much on the grand scheme of things. It's applicable only to you, gun laws need to be applicable to everybody unconditionally.
 

Carolina Red

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I agree with you on that, but my point is essentially 'great, I'm happy for you.' Your positive experience and your dad's confidence and ability does not mean much on the grand scheme of things. It's applicable only to you, gun laws need to be applicable to everybody unconditionally.
And I agree completely with you on this.
 

Javi

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Used as in shot them?
Absolutely.

Used as in for self defense?
Thankfully no.
Used in the sense of the purpose they were put in place beforehand. So what are the chances they are being used (i.e. how likely is the event for intended usage to occur)?
 

Carolina Red

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Used in the sense of the purpose they were put in place beforehand. So what are the chances they are being used (i.e. how likely is the event for intended usage to occur)?
No clue. I've said this before on a different thread when asked the same question, better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them.

Ideally, I would love to go my whole life without ever having to use one in self defense.
 

DenisIrwin

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I would say that both sides of the aisle have been guilty of pressing their political agendas in the Courts since our country's establishment.

It is the Court's job to determine what the Constitution says in the midst of the political agendas. If you read the evidence present in the majority opinion, I think you will find that the 2nd Amendment has always protected an individual right, as expressed by the Court in 2008.
The way I read it differs. I see the words. I'm not sure what the SC saw between the lines, tbh. I agree with this:

Richard Posner, judge for the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, compares Heller to Roe v. Wade, stating that it created a federal constitutional right that did not previously exist, and he asserts that the originalist method – to which Justice Antonin Scalia claimed to adhere – would have yielded the opposite result of the majority opinion.

The text of the amendment, whether viewed alone or in light of the concerns that actuated its adoption, creates no right to the private possession of guns for hunting or other sport, or for the defense of person or property. It is doubtful that the amendment could even be thought to require that members of state militias be allowed to keep weapons in their homes, since that would reduce the militias' effectiveness. Suppose part of a state's militia was engaged in combat and needed additional weaponry. Would the militia's commander have to collect the weapons from the homes of militiamen who had not been mobilized, as opposed to obtaining them from a storage facility? Since the purpose of the Second Amendment, judging from its language and background, was to assure the effectiveness of state militias, an interpretation that undermined their effectiveness by preventing states from making efficient arrangements for the storage and distribution of military weapons would not make sense.[66]
 

Zarlak

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No clue. I've said this before on a different thread when asked the same question, better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them.

Ideally, I would love to go my whole life without ever having to use one in self defense.
How about not have them and not need them? I don't see why it has to be either or. Statistically you will never need to use one. The very idea of better to have them and not need them is what perpetuates these instances of tragedy that lead to more gun problems.
 

Javi

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No clue. I've said this before on a different thread when asked the same question, better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them.

Ideally, I would love to go my whole life without ever having to use one in self defense.
I can understand that. But it seems that it's not just beneficial that everybody has a gun at home, doesn't it? So if we look at this from a general perspective rather than an individualistic one the US would be better off if nobody had guns, accepting a weaker position in terms of self defense but getting safety in return (as in lower chance of getting shot), wouldn't you agree?
 

Carolina Red

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@DenisIrwin
I'm not sure how judges could argue that the Heller decision creates a right that never existed when, as the Heller decisions cites, individuals not in a militia had been exercising their right to keep and bear arms throughout our country's history up to that point. Ruling in 2008 that the individual right did not exist would have been ignoring 200+ years of historical fact and jurisprudence.
 

Carolina Red

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How about not have them and not need them? I don't see why it has to be either or. Statistically you will never need to use one. The very idea of better to have them and not need them is what perpetuates these instances of tragedy that lead to more gun problems.
I'm sure statistically I will more than likely never need my seat belt or my life jacket. Same principle applies for me though.
 

Carolina Red

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I can understand that. But it seems that it's not just beneficial that everybody has a gun at home, doesn't it? So if we look at this from a general perspective rather than an individualistic one the US would be better off if nobody had guns, accepting a weaker position in terms of self defense but getting safety in return (as in lower chance of getting shot), wouldn't you agree?
I would agree to that; however, I believe we both know that it would be impossible for that to happen.
 

Javi

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I'm sure statistically I will more than likely never need my seat belt or my life jacket. Same principle applies for me though.
WTF, but there is no downside to wearing a seat belt whereas the downside of having guns everywhere seems to be mass shootings all over the place?

I would agree to that; however, I believe we both know that it would be impossible for that to happen.
Yes of course not but it hasn't to be black or white it can get better with stricter gun laws.
 

Carolina Red

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WTF, but there is no downside to wearing a seat belt whereas the downside of having gun everywhere seems to be mass shooting all over the place?
While that may be true, once again, it is something I have to protect myself that I most likely will not ever actually need.
 

Javi

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While that may be true, once again, it is something I have to protect myself that I most likely will not ever actually need.
Er, yes, but you're applying the same principles for two very different situations and have apparently no reason for it which in turn adds to the impression of you being unreasonable.
 

Carolina Red

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Er, yes, but you're applying the same principles for two very different situations and have apparently no reason for it which in turn adds to the impression of you being unreasonable.
If by reason, you are referring to having a gun or guns, again... You can prove I may statistically never need one, but you cannot guarantee it.

While some may view civilian gun ownership as unreasonable, I view civilian gun bans as unreasonable.

And again...

Yes of course not but it hasn't to be black or white it can get better with stricter gun laws.
I agree with you here, and do support stricter gun laws.
 

Javi

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If by reason, you are referring to having a gun or guns, again... You can prove I may statistically never need one, but you cannot guarantee it.

While some may view civilian gun ownership as unreasonable, I view civilian gun bans as unreasonable.

And again...


I agree with you here, and do support stricter gun laws.
I was just refering to your comparsion with seat belts. But why would you view civilian gun bans as unreasonable when you agreed above that the US would be better off if no one had a gun (#150)?
 

Carolina Red

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I was just refering to your comparsion with seat belts. But why would you view civilian gun bans as unreasonable when you agreed above that the US would be better off if no one had a gun (#150)?
Because one is making a comment based from an idealistic view of the world and the other is making a comment from a realistic one.

I support stricter gun laws but realize that eliminating guns is not possible.
 

DenisIrwin

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I'm not sure how judges could argue that the Heller decision creates a right that never existed when, as the Heller decisions cites, individuals not in a militia had been exercising their right to keep and bear arms throughout our country's history up to that point. Ruling in 2008 that the individual right did not exist would have been ignoring 200+ years of historical fact and jurisprudence.
That previous post of mine was indeed a quote from a judge arguing just exactly that - stating that it created a federal constitutional right that did not previously exist.

The fact is, the second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms in order to maintain a well regulated militia. That's it. No more than that, and no less. There is nothing in there that imposes a ban on the keeping or bearing of arms. Additional legislation is right and proper for purposes beyond those covered by the 2nd Amendment. Wilfully distorting the constitution is/was a huge error - was politically motivated, and was unnecessary. It was a close thing all the same, at 5/4 it could so easily have gone the other way.
 

Carolina Red

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That previous post of mine was indeed a quote from a judge arguing just exactly that - stating that it created a federal constitutional right that did not previously exist.
I know. I'm saying he is ignoring 200+ years of historical fact and jurisprudence to make that claim.
The fact is, the second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms in order to maintain a well regulated militia. That's it. No more than that, and no less. There is nothing in there that imposes a ban on the keeping or bearing of arms. Additional legislation is right and proper for purposes beyond those covered by the 2nd Amendment. Wilfully distorting the constitution is/was a huge error - was politically motivated, and was unnecessary. It was a close thing all the same, at 5/4 it could so easily have gone the other way.
While you can attempt to pass that off as fact, jurisprudence and history is clearly against you.
 

Javi

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Because one is making a comment based from an idealistic view of the world and the other is making a comment from a realistic one.

I support stricter gun laws but realize that eliminating guns is not possible.
All right, so next time you might want to be more precise about your point.

So to sum up (as I still struggle to grasp your opinion due to the what I mentioned above): your stance is that you support stricter gun control and also think that civilian gun bans would be reasonable but recognize the limited possibilites of achieving this state.