Madeleine McCann

[Arruda]

Bloody hell!

Not in the UK, but I guess it was a bit similar, when I was 7 or 8 years old I had the key to my house, would go shopping nearby for groceries etc, and often would walk about 1 mile through the city center to meet with my mother at her job. My mother often worked nights and I would stay home alone, and knew the "protocols" on how to act in some scenarios (i.e., strangers knocking on the door, emergencies, etc.)

My brother was born 12 years later than me and was raised in a radically different way. He was taken to and picked up from school until he was about 12, even though it was a 5 minute walk. He never stayed home alone, let alone at night, and probably didn't wander alone on the city until 14 or 15.

My ex-daughter-in-law is 15 and never left the house alone.

Things changed very quickly. I don't think the cities became more dangerous, people just are so much more careful these days.

 

[Mihai]

Not in the UK, but I guess it was a bit similar, when I was 7 or 8 years old I had the key to my house, would go shopping nearby for groceries etc, and often would walk about 1 mile through the city center to meet with my mother at her job. My mother often worked nights and I would stay home alone, and knew the "protocols" on how to act in some scenarios (i.e., strangers knocking on the door, emergencies, etc.)

My brother was born 12 years later than me and was raised in a radically different way. He was taken to and picked up from school until he was about 12, even though it was a 5 minute walk. He never stayed home alone, let alone at night, and probably didn't wander alone on the city until 14 or 15.

My ex-daughter-in-law is 15 and never left the house alone.

Things changed very quickly. I don't think the cities became more dangerous, people just are so much more careful these days.

You'd be perfect for Arsenal.

 

[horsechoker]

You'd be perfect for Arsenal.

Stole my joke

 

[Mihai]

Stole my joke

sailor vee!

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

The McCanns aren't likeable. But the fact is, it could have happened to any of the children at that complex - maybe other complexes too - because the McCanns weren't the only ones leaving their children at night. As other people have pointed out, it wasn't much different to the way numerous parents in the 70s and 80s, left their kids in chalets at Butlins, and relied on 'Baby crying in Chalet No.....'. For a while, it was perfectly acceptable, though obviously to everyone now, totally wrong. Pre-Madeleine, it was easy for parents to feel lulled into a false sense of security, and believe their kids were perfectly safe. Most of the time they were, at least safe from predators, but not safe from fire, or vomiting, or other reasons why kids shouldn't be left alone, or at least out of earshot.

I don't think for one minute that the McCann's are guilty of anything other than 'unintentional neglect'. They have to live with that. It's hard to feel sorry for them, because a child is missing, possibly dead, but it must be bloody awful to suffer the loss of your little girl and also see yourself vilified around the world

While I would be way too paranoid to let my children out of my or my partners view I can't have anything but sympathy for a couple who had their child abducted while eating dinner only 100 yards from their child when (maybe) keeping check ups on them.

Not only that as a father of a 3yo and a 4 month old, I can only imagine the horror of trying to balance a holiday while looking after them. Day to day is hard enough. I can understand the parents wanting a get away and wanting to eat out and not cook. I get that.

Like you say in the 80s when I was raised parents including my own were far more lax. As a baby I was left in my pram outside shops, as a toddler I got lost in shops, as an older child I enjoyed roaming over a 1 mile radius of my home and was happy to be a 'latch key kid'.

and to have to see all the accusations that they killed her.

Even master criminals struggle to conceal bodies - I'm not sure how the McCanns would have done it in such a short space of time, and so successfully. I also find it hard to believe that they would have fought to keep the case open for so long and risk being found out if they were guilty.

Do they though? How many people go missing with nothing showing up? All you have to do is dig a deep ditch and fill it in or dump a weighed down body at sea. Madeline not showing up is testimony to that.

The Portugese lead detective did believe that the McCann's were the key suspects and wrote a book about it that the McCann's seized. The sniffer dogs gave a positive for dead body in their hire car. But that may all be wrong and the investigators may be massive bell ends, I don't know. Looking at the questions they asked her though they did have it in her for from the start. TBH If I was innocent and worried about my child I'd probably get done for battering them if I got this line of questioning:

https://theukdatabase.com/uk-child-...tion/48-questions-kate-mccann-wouldnt-answer/

Obviously not answering would be the smarter action though.

 

[Jippy]

While I would be way too paranoid to let my children out of my or my partners view I can't have anything but sympathy for a couple who had their child abducted while eating dinner only 100 yards from their child when (maybe) keeping check ups on them.

Not only that as a father of a 3yo and a 4 month old, I can only imagine the horror of trying to balance a holiday while looking after them. Day to day is hard enough. I can understand the parents wanting a get away and wanting to eat out and not cook. I get that.

Like you say in the 80s when I was raised parents including my own were far more lax. As a baby I was left in my pram outside shops, as a toddler I got lost in shops, as an older child I enjoyed roaming over a 1 mile radius of my home and was happy to be a 'latch key kid'.



Do they though? How many people go missing with nothing showing up? All you have to do is dig a deep ditch and fill it in or dump a weighed down body at sea. Madeline not showing up is testimony to that.

The Portugese lead detective did believe that the McCann's were the key suspects and wrote a book about it that the McCann's seized. The sniffer dogs gave a positive for dead body in their hire car. But that may all be wrong and the investigators may be massive bell ends, I don't know. Looking at the questions they asked her though they did have it in her for from the start. TBH If I was innocent and worried about my child I'd probably get done for battering them if I got this line of questioning:

https://theukdatabase.com/uk-child-...tion/48-questions-kate-mccann-wouldnt-answer/

Obviously not answering would be the smarter action though.

It's obviously a weird case, but reading that link, it's hard to fully understand her not answering the questions because the info wasn't qualified. Fine she had legal representation there -that could be weird or smart, given she's in a foreign country. It doesn't say though whether her brief told her not to answer the questions- was it her own choosing or was she just in shock? Who knows.
Are the 48 questions just pertaining to the first interview or cumulative over the series of interviews? If only in the initial session, did she subsequently answer some of those? Answers to these questions would be helpful, but are not clear from that seemingly damning looking list.
I thought the sniffer dog evidence had been discredited tbh re the blood stains in the boot.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

It's obviously a weird case, but reading that link, it's hard to fully understand her not answering the questions because the info wasn't qualified. Fine she had legal representation there -that could be weird or smart, given she's in a foreign country. It doesn't say though whether her brief told her not to answer the questions- was it her own choosing or was she just in shock? Who knows.
I thought the sniffer dog evidence had been discredited tbh re the blood stains in the boot

It could be discredited, it's hard to pick between the good sources and poor ones over the internet.

As for 'no comment' answers, I'm assuming this was after they were classified as suspects. I was always told by criminal mates to say "no comment" as 'they'll always try to stitch you up with anything you say to them'. I'd expect any decent brief to advice the same. TBF to her none of these questions were aimed at anything other than probing her. Any answer wouldn't help focus the investigation on other leads.

Personally I do question the xenophobia of their locals based on my grandad's experiences there as a 80 something year old being treated pretty horribly. But that's pretty speculative.

 

[Jippy]

It could be discredited, it's hard to pick between the good sources and poor ones over the internet.

As for 'no comment' answers, I'm assuming this was after they were classified as suspects. I was always told by criminal mates to say "no comment" as 'they'll always try to stitch you up with anything you say to them'. I'd expect any decent brief to advice the same. TBF to her none of these questions were aimed at anything other than probing her. Any answer wouldn't help focus the investigation on other leads.

Personally I do question the xenophobia of their locals based on my grandad's experiences there as a 80 something year old being treated pretty horribly. But that's pretty speculative.

That's true. I guess you figure that as a parent of a missing kid, you'd expect her to co-operate fully. On the flipside, if you're in shock, scared and alone in a foreign country, who knows how you'd react or indeed what legal advice she received. From your earlier post I thought you believed they were involved. Now I'm not so sure!

 

[Arruda]

Personally I do question the xenophobia of their locals based on my grandad's experiences there as a 80 something year old being treated pretty horribly. But that's pretty speculative.

Speculative and incredibly wrong. Portugal is probably one of the least xaenophobic countries in Europe. Our most right wing party with representation (Christian Democrats) is pretty dead center in comparison with most democracies right-wing parties.

Truly right wing parties in the mould of Le Pen's FN are simply irrelevant, the biggest got 0.5 % of the votes in the last election, nowhere near close to getting a seat. In 40 years of democracy, never a far-right MP sat in our parliament.

Foreigners are usually treated with respect almost everywhere, so any problems your grandad had were probably due to very bad luck. In fact, European retirees love our country and many settle here.

 

[Javi]

It could be discredited, it's hard to pick between the good sources and poor ones over the internet.

As for 'no comment' answers, I'm assuming this was after they were classified as suspects. I was always told by criminal mates to say "no comment" as 'they'll always try to stitch you up with anything you say to them'. I'd expect any decent brief to advice the same. TBF to her none of these questions were aimed at anything other than probing her. Any answer wouldn't help focus the investigation on other leads.

Personally I do question the xenophobia of their locals based on my grandad's experiences there as a 80 something year old being treated pretty horribly. But that's pretty speculative.

That could be. But while desperately looking for my kid, worrying about being a suspect is a bit down the list, don't you think? It's not like the police had a lot to gain from framing them based on conflicting statements.

 

[TheReligion]

sailor vee!

Wasn't he on The Titanic?

 

[VorZakone]

For some reason I keep thinking it was the parents but that's just based on gut feeling and the lack of actual POI's and it's harsh towards the parents as they've done a lot in order to try and find their kid but still...

 

[Ramshock]

Not in the UK, but I guess it was a bit similar, when I was 7 or 8 years old I had the key to my house, would go shopping nearby for groceries etc, and often would walk about 1 mile through the city center to meet with my mother at her job. My mother often worked nights and I would stay home alone, and knew the "protocols" on how to act in some scenarios (i.e., strangers knocking on the door, emergencies, etc.)

My brother was born 12 years later than me and was raised in a radically different way. He was taken to and picked up from school until he was about 12, even though it was a 5 minute walk. He never stayed home alone, let alone at night, and probably didn't wander alone on the city until 14 or 15.

My ex-daughter-in-law is 15 and never left the house alone.

Things changed very quickly. I don't think the cities became more dangerous, people just are so much more careful these days.

Wait... you have an ex daughter in law aged 15??

 

[Thunderhead]

I don't think they did it but what I always though was that if the McCanns had been a dinner lady and a truck driver from a council estate in Glamorgan instead of Doctors from Glasgow they'd have been castigated by all and sundry as negligent parents and would probably have faced prosecution for neglect.

 

[Arruda]

Wait... you have an ex daughter in law aged 15??

Well, I'm 36. I meant the daughter of my former girlfriend, not sure daughter-in-law is the correct expression as we didn't marry.

 

[Arruda]

I don't think they did it but what I always though was that if the McCanns had been a dinner lady and a truck driver from a council estate in Glamorgan instead of Doctors from Glasgow they'd have been castigated by all and sundry as negligent parents and would probably have faced prosecution for neglect.

Lately it has happened. A chinese couple (and a very wealthy one at that) used to frequent the casino across the street in Lisbon leaving their 4 year old daughter home alone. She climbed out of the window of their 21st floor and died from the fall, they are now facing trial.

 

[Thunderhead]

Well, I'm 36. I meant the daughter of my former girlfriend, not sure daughter-in-law is the correct expression as we didn't marry.

it's step-daughter over here

Daughter in law is your son's wife

 

[Arruda]

it's step-daughter over here

Daughter in law is your son's wife

I can understand his surprise now

 

[VorZakone]

I can understand his surprise now

 

[Livvie]

I don't think they did it but what I always though was that if the McCanns had been a dinner lady and a truck driver from a council estate in Glamorgan instead of Doctors from Glasgow they'd have been castigated by all and sundry as negligent parents and would probably have faced prosecution for neglect.

You think they haven't been??

They have been reviled and castigated by all and sundry, and when was the last time a council estate family was prosecuted after a child went missing? Apart from Karen Matthews who had committed a crime.

 

[TheReligion]

You think they haven't been??

They have been reviled and castigated by all and sundry, and when was the last time a council estate family was prosecuted after a child went missing? Apart from Karen Matthews who had committed a crime.

It's not the just going missing bit. It's leaving them home alone that's negligent.

 

[Jippy]

The suspects over the years defo look like wrong uns.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/34083...-mccann-over-the-10-years-since-she-vanished/

 

[horsechoker]

^ The third suspect is a Football Manager re-gen.

 

[AkaAkuma]

I've only just taken an interest in the story this week. Is there a reason people follow the abduction theory?

 

[Randall Flagg]

Would actually say the 3rd one looks like Mr McCann if anything

The other 3 are comically bad pics of generic bad guys

 

[Ramshock]

The McCanns are scottish? I thought they were scousers

 

[Thunderhead]

The McCanns are scottish? I thought they were scousers

the wife is a scouser, he's scottish

 

[RedTiger]

The suspects over the years defo look like wrong uns.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/34083...-mccann-over-the-10-years-since-she-vanished/

The 1st one is a young moyes

 

[711]

You think they haven't been??

They have been reviled and castigated by all and sundry, and when was the last time a council estate family was prosecuted after a child went missing? Apart from Karen Matthews who had committed a crime.

The McCanns have been criticised, but they have also had massive support from newspapers and broadcasters that parents on a sink estate would not have had, and by comparison any other children from an estate family would immediately have gone on the social services at risk register. There may not be many prosecutions but children are removed from their parents where neglect is found every day of the week.

My own view is that they should have been prosecuted, not for imprisonment or the removal of their other children, but for a conviction and fine simply to demonstrate that their neglect was morally and legally wrong. And I would expected the judge to order their other children to be put on the register for monitoring to take place.

 

[Ramshock]

the wife is a scouser, he's scottish

ah ok

 

[zeekey]

The third one is Holly from Red Dwarf.

 

[barros]

Speculative and incredibly wrong. Portugal is probably one of the least xaenophobic countries in Europe. Our most right wing party with representation (Christian Democrats) is pretty dead center in comparison with most democracies right-wing parties.

Truly right wing parties in the mould of Le Pen's FN are simply irrelevant, the biggest got 0.5 % of the votes in the last election, nowhere near close to getting a seat. In 40 years of democracy, never a far-right MP sat in our parliament.

Foreigners are usually treated with respect almost everywhere, so any problems your grandad had were probably due to very bad luck. In fact, European retirees love our country and many settle here.

My family over there doesn't like Romanians at all.

 

[Hammerfell]

The first one is spotty teen Wilhuff Tarkin.

 

[Arruda]

My family over there doesn't like Romanians at all.

I suspect you mean Romani, and the vast majority of the ones in Portugal have been
portuguese for generations, not Romanian.

 

[Charlie Foley]

I can understand his surprise now

 

[Charlie Foley]

My family over there doesn't like Romanians at all.

Well that's settled then.

 

[Livvie]

The McCanns have been criticised, but they have also had massive support from newspapers and broadcasters that parents on a sink estate would not have had, and by comparison any other children from an estate family would immediately have gone on the social services at risk register. There may not be many prosecutions but children are removed from their parents where neglect is found every day of the week.

My own view is that they should have been prosecuted, not for imprisonment or the removal of their other children, but for a conviction and fine simply to demonstrate that their neglect was morally and legally wrong. And I would expected the judge to order their other children to be put on the register for monitoring to take place.

I think that might stand up if they'd been at home - but it would have opened a right can of worms if they had been prosecuted whilst on holiday - the McCanns weren't the only parents to put their kids to bed and then go and eat. I would be surprised if they ever did this at home. Unfortunately, it was pretty widespread back then.

 

[Solius]

I was refreshing my memory on this last night and always assumed the McCanns weren't guilty. However it says they brought in two dogs that were trained to sniff out blood and the smell of a corpse. They both alerted only behind the sofa in their hotel room and then once more in the back of the car they had rented three weeks later, picking it out from 20 cars.

How can they explain that away?

 

[Skills]

I can understand his surprise now

 

[JustAFan]

I was refreshing my memory on this last night and always assumed the McCanns weren't guilty. However it says they brought in two dogs that were trained to sniff out blood and the smell of a corpse. They both alerted only behind the sofa in their hotel room and then once more in the back of the car they had rented three weeks later, picking it out from 20 cars.

How can they explain that away?

A variety of explanations.

1) depending on sources these types of dogs are said to be anywhere from 25 to 80% accurate.
2) they did not find a corpse therefore we have no idea if the dogs provided an accurate reading or not.
3) even a few weeks can affect the quality of the scent. Though the dogs can at times find traces that are years old.
4). Which combines 2 & 3 if the dogs can find traces that are years old, but can't find a corpse, how do we know what they actually found and when it was from?
5). The wide variety of reports including the dogs reacting to friends of the McCann. Brings in the question of what stories do we believe?