We didn't lose many matches at all last season and had the best defensive records and ended up 8th. It's the draws, you sweet likkle thing.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
No Liverpool fan has claimed him amazing, other than tongue in cheek. Some Utd fans have called him shite and overrated though.
We haven't drawn that many either...sweetums (?).
Incorrect.
Liverpool played so few games at the tail end of last season (2 weeks waiting for a game?) that it negates the since March stat. Added to not actually playing competitive football for12 of those weeks!
I'm not following Liverpool that closely, but from what I've seen I would say that their main problem is the same as Klopp had in his later Dortmund days. Not in defense, but in possession. The economics of risk+energy investment vs chance creation and control too often don't add up, because the team's ball circulation isn't threatening enough and they rely too much on individual moments for their chance creation rather than positional plans.
just a little example:
Their 35 shots vs Burnley look impressive, but 48% of them were from outside the box and 34% of them blocked. Compared to other possession heavy teams of the weekened:
Liverpool 35 shots - 48% outside - 34% blocked
Man City 28 shots - 36% outside - 28% blocked
Bayern M 28 shots - 28% outside - 21% blocked
Dortmund 22 shots - 36% outside - 9% blocked
Small sample size, I know - feel free to draw a bigger picture.
just a little example:
Their 35 shots vs Burnley look impressive, but 48% of them were from outside the box and 34% of them blocked. Compared to other possession heavy teams of the weekened:
Liverpool 35 shots - 48% outside - 34% blocked
Man City 28 shots - 36% outside - 28% blocked
Bayern M 28 shots - 28% outside - 21% blocked
Dortmund 22 shots - 36% outside - 9% blocked
Small sample size, I know - feel free to draw a bigger picture.
Klopp is not on par with the top coaches currently.
He has been found out.
In the end results matter.
It takes more than passion to be a great manager.
He has been found out.
In the end results matter.
It takes more than passion to be a great manager.
Since March 20 competitive games. 12 wins, 6 draws and 2 defeats. Doesn't seem like form worthy of 'Jurgen Out!' banners does it?
He deserves criticism for certain tactical issues and some of his comments, but it's not enough to suggest he's a fraud (I hate that term).
He is overrated though.
37 and 35 goals allowed in the LVG seasons. The second season while playing some of the most defensive, risk-averse football seen in the PL in recent memory.
No, i'm saying if you swapped Jones or Bailly with Lovren, United would still have a great defence and liverpool would still have a crap defence. They're better, but not that much better individually
Liverpool created about as many great chances in most of those games where they had trouble breaking down deep teams as united did in most of those games where they created zillions of chances actually.
There is so much wrong with this post. Don't give your opinion on leagues which you're not following seriously.
A look at their results since Klopp took over would tell you the teams that don't give them space i.e. mid-table and bottom table who play with two blocks of four give them the MOST trouble. Also, if you watched any of the zillion games we drew last season against same mid-table and bottom table opposition, we created ton of chances in nearly every match but were super wasteful with the finishing.
Also, that's last season, and most of those games where they had trouble creating chances they were missing either mane or coutinho or both
Except they don't, and you could see that clearly just by watching any one game of these two teams. Liverpool's midfielders don't run towards their own goal. If the ball gets past them, that's that. Game might as well have stopped as far as they're concerned. United's midfielders on the other hand are constantly keyed on in their defensive assignments. It's rare to see united's back 4 being left isolated in half the pitch against 3-4 opponents. With liverpool, it's normal
Very good post, I feel people overrate the amount of good chances this Liverpool team creates against deep teams. In this match I could only remember as Solanke's chance as the only one which they should've buried, the rest were hopeful shots from distance.
You're wrong then. You're wildly underrating Bailly, Jones or overrating Lovren/Klavan. I can't believe this is even a discussion tbh.
@giorno
We're on course to have the 4th straight year of having a fantastic defensive record. Minus the Moyes years and we're back with Sir Alex.
This squad have been defensively sound for a while now, to say there isn't much difference with Liverpools or to give Jose all the credit is insulting quite frankly.
We're on course to have the 4th straight year of having a fantastic defensive record. Minus the Moyes years and we're back with Sir Alex.
This squad have been defensively sound for a while now, to say there isn't much difference with Liverpools or to give Jose all the credit is insulting quite frankly.
Are you serious?
Lovern will make the whole team nervous and make the defense shit.
Surely Lovren's form is more to do with either a) not being suited to Klopp's defensive tactics or b) shit coaching
He is a good player, he was great at Soton so it's not like he is suddenly crap. If it's a) Kloop bears the blame for not getting in someone else and if it's b) then it's obviously his fault. If VVD had arrived he wouldn't have fixed everything like magic, it's the system that is wrong. You can't knock Klopp completely because what he achieved with Dortmund is impressive but there is a basic lack of common sense/respect for the PL.
I would argue, purely from a neutral standpoint that the biggest problem (and why Klopp has bought Keita - although he's taken three seasons to react so again question marks) is Henderson not being good enough. I know he's liked by the fans but I feel he is used incorrectly by Klopp and gives minimal shielding to the CBs.
He is a good player, he was great at Soton so it's not like he is suddenly crap. If it's a) Kloop bears the blame for not getting in someone else and if it's b) then it's obviously his fault. If VVD had arrived he wouldn't have fixed everything like magic, it's the system that is wrong. You can't knock Klopp completely because what he achieved with Dortmund is impressive but there is a basic lack of common sense/respect for the PL.
I would argue, purely from a neutral standpoint that the biggest problem (and why Klopp has bought Keita - although he's taken three seasons to react so again question marks) is Henderson not being good enough. I know he's liked by the fans but I feel he is used incorrectly by Klopp and gives minimal shielding to the CBs.
Exactly Brendan had the same problem, like I said.
Reigned in the attackers, tried to tighten things up, blunted the attack while having little defensive benefit.
But that was from a starting point of being a slightly better defensive coach than Klopp in the first place, so although it wasn't a significant improvement for Brendan, it was a higher water mark than Klopp.
I don't remember Liverpool ever being as shambolic at the back as they are at the moment, apart from when Hodgson was in charge.
Best goalkeeper in the world? Weidenfeller?
Should have put "one of" because for that 3 year period he was in very good form.
I don't know where they are going with it, Klavan isn't even bad he is completely hopeless and lovren plays like he is dragging a tractor tyre behind him.
Ask any Liverpool fan on here about a swap of Bailly or Jones for Lovren or Klavan...
I actually think Lovren looked better last season with Milner at LB. This season he's had mostly Moreno who bombs on a bit more, which leaves him a more exposed.
You could also argue that Klopp's tactical set up exposes his CB's. I don't think Klavan and Lovren are good defenders but I think they'd both look better if they were playing in a Mourinho side for example.
I don't think anyone here really rated Jones and Rojo until Mourinho came in did they?
I'm really not a fan of Jones. He's better than Klavan/Lovren but I think he'd be horribly exposed in a Klopp team.
Bailly is fantastic.
I agree with you, that Lovren probably doesn't know how to play in the system Klopp wants. But if that's the case, then he should have been dumped a long time ago, though, just like Klavan.
And I actually agree with you about the midfield as well. Our defence is poor, but it isn't helped by our midfield either. Imo, Henderson shouldn't be a starter, never mind captain. You can just take a quick look at our rivals, where everyone on of them have one or two shielding midfielders and a better defence and keeper too. Arsenals defence isn't great, but it's probably better than ours and they have Xhaka/Coquelin to protect it too.
Klopps a great manager and I'm happy he's at Liverpool, but he should have done something about our defending issues.
Bailly is worse than Jones. He might be a better talent than Jones but you can tell he's played only two full seasons at first team level.
We'd also have similar defensive record if we swapped Jones and Bailly with Ramos and Varane. We'd probably concede more goals and definitely more red cards though. Yet it would be silly to say that our CBs are at the same level as Madrid's as of now.
Matip would be a great third choice CB on our bench till Rojo returned from injury. Lovren wouldn't get into our league cup squad, nevermind Klavan.
This lack of quality in their defense should have been the first thing Klopp had to take care of in the summer window but he chose not to.
Don't disagree that he isn't a good fit for how Klopp wants to play.
At the same time, I'm also not sure the whole "you must always play out from the back" tactic works well in the PL. We've seen other managers try the same and it usually ends up putting the defensive line under more pressure than necessary and they in turn, are "horribly exposed."
Liverpools defenders are making basic, defensive errors though. Not being able to cope with set plays and continually leaving opposition players free in the box isn't being exposed by Klopps tactics.
Lovren is average. Like Morgan he moved to a pressurised club and got shown up. Matip got talked up to the heavens when he first arrived and that's finally settled down.
They are average. Simple as that.
Lovren is average. Like Morgan he moved to a pressurised club and got shown up. Matip got talked up to the heavens when he first arrived and that's finally settled down.
They are average. Simple as that.
The mind boggles really, it was obvious to anyone who watched Liverpool last year that they needed to be reinforced at the back. They've got a bang average goalkeepers and they needed to be reinforced at centre back, so let's take a look who they've bought.
Salah- Good player makes that front free look quite scary
Robertson- Decent young left back
Ox- Good player but I don't see why they needed him
Solanke- One for the future
Keita- Next summer
No goalkeeper. No centre back. Now the centre back is easily explained because obviously Klopp thinks that Van Dijk is the only defender in the whole world who could improve them at the back and goalkeeper? God knows.
I think Klopp has this season before serious questions start being asked.
Salah- Good player makes that front free look quite scary
Robertson- Decent young left back
Ox- Good player but I don't see why they needed him
Solanke- One for the future
Keita- Next summer
No goalkeeper. No centre back. Now the centre back is easily explained because obviously Klopp thinks that Van Dijk is the only defender in the whole world who could improve them at the back and goalkeeper? God knows.
I think Klopp has this season before serious questions start being asked.
All the resident Liverpool fans:
What do you realistically expect Klopp to achieve this season? I know the season has only just begun, but would you be happy if Klopp delivers a top 4 finish this season with no trophies? (sort of becoming Arsenal lite perhaps?)
What do you realistically expect Klopp to achieve this season? I know the season has only just begun, but would you be happy if Klopp delivers a top 4 finish this season with no trophies? (sort of becoming Arsenal lite perhaps?)
What are you talking about? We did this under Fergie for years with Rio and Vidic. Playing out from the back is an indispensible part of Guardiola's style of play. If you get it right, it's more efficient than hoofing the ball out. It's even better if your defenders are technically proficient to the point they can do this under pressure from the opposing team, as it provides the midfield with more space to do their work.
Now when your defenders are as braindead as Lovren, it's more risky. But you can't develop any level of consistency in your attacking play by having your keeper hoof the ball out. Klopp's constraint is how good his defenders are, not his style of play. And yes, being incapable of finding good defenders is a weakness that has not been addressed, and one that Klopp should received flack for.
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He's been a solid keeper, always has been. But he never was considered world class in Germany.
Agree to disagree then. Btw i never mentioned Klavan. Klavan i think is a genuinely poor defender
This squad wasn't defensively sound in LVG's first season(37 GA in 38 games is not a great defensive record no matter how you look at it), and it was only marginally better in his second season, and it came at the cost of almost refusing to attack. The additions of Bailly and Pogba obviously made a difference, but then your best CB pairing last season wasn't Jones-Rojo? Two players everyone here wanted shipped out as fast as possible before they started to look good under Mourinho? Wasn't Smalling seen as your best CB when Mourinho took over? Now he's widely seen(correctly imho) as your worst CB? (These are genuine questions, do tell me if i'm off the mark)
YesAre you serious?
Lovren looked very good under Pochettino, didn't he? One of the problems right now is he's lost a lot of confidence.
Yes, and Bailly and Jones would look only marginally better than Lovren for Liverpool and they'd still be clamoring for CB signings because the ones they have are not good enough.
Nevermind Klavan, that's a different story altogether
Arsenal have better defenders than you, they conceded 8 goals to your 9. The issue is the same for both teams, the defence is left consistently exposed by mistakes in possession and lack of help/outright brain-dead mistakes from the midfielders
Set pieces are very much down to the manager. Defending set pieces is one of the hardest thing to do, and the managet has a massive impact on it. As for their inability to mark their men inside the box, that's a problem most modern defenders have. You'll see it in any club that plays a proactive, attacking style of football. Bayern, Madrid, Barcelona, you name it. All have this problem
And yes, the liverpool defenders go from decent(matip) to outright poor(klavan, moreno) but the problem is their playing style consistently leaves them exposed. To have a good defensive record, with those modfielders, and that playing style, they would need two WC defenders. Prime Thiago Silva-Nesta. Anything less and their defence will remain a problem, unless they become so good at pressing as to suffocate any counterattack in the crib, and so good in possession as to make no bad mistakes(which Klopp's dortmund were in germany for 2 seasons)
To drive my point home: walter samuel was one of the best CBs of his era, i think we all agree about that? Walter Samuel looked like a clown in his one season at real madrid
It was a pretty decent defense in LVG's first year, only Chelsea and Southampton were significantly better (4-5 less goals conceded). Smalling-Blind was our preferred defensive combination back then, with Smalling dealing more with crosses and long balls while Blind played the ball out.
Last season it wasn't very clear what the best combination was. Smalling-Baiily started well, Jones-Rojo took over when those were unavailable, and before his injury Rojo-Bailly seemed best. But at different points in the season all our defenders did a good job. Smalling is the weakest option now because while defensively he's still good his sluggishness and predictability in passing kills any attempt to play out from the back. Jones and Bailly are generally reliable (recent wobbles aside) whilst not being completely useless on the ball.
I get your point in that obviously the system as a whole determines how exposed the defenders are and thus can hide their deficiencies. Blind is an example of this in that individually he looks just fine when he plays in central defense until you notice how other players are having to adjust their game to help him out. Or how he deals with pacy wingers by retreating deep into his own half and not joining forwards in attack. Our defenders would have a lot more trouble without Matic ahead of them and De Gea behind.
Saying all that, I think Lovren at present is a poor defender who serially makes basic mistakes and lacks concentration. Moreno isn't much better and Klavan is worse. There are definitely players in the market which could have cost half of VVD and still improved Klopp's options in defense. I appreciate the 'quality only' strategy over their previous scattergun approach in the transfer market, but only having one player in mind to improve the weakest part of your team is just going too far.
Yh exactly, it must be frustrating because you don't even need to suddenly create the best defense in the league, it just has to do the basics and stop dropping stupid points.
And we go back to my initial point: which CB they could have signed would have made a big difference for them? (Notwithstanding Lovren's current form which is as much down to a lack of confidence as anything imho) Keeping in mind he'd have to be someone with the skillset to play for Klopp. Godin for example wouldn't get into his team because of his lack of ability on the ball. (He'd also look far from great defensively given how exposed he'd be all the time)
Their actual defence cost them points against burnley. Against watford they gave up two goals from set pieces(a collective defensive effort by the whole team) and the other was down to their midfielders. They kept clean sheets against palace and arsenal
Against city, the first goal was down to klavan and the midfield, the others came after they had mentally checked out. Both goals against Sevilla once again were down to a collective defensive breakdown(lovren's mistake on sevilla's first goal was freakish. The kind of mistake any defender can make every once in a while. Lovren's prone to those, sure, but it's not like he made mistakes like that every game last season. And it came after a defensive breakdown lead to a 2vs1 for sevilla on the wing)
Lovren's been poor for quite some time now, so if it's a confidence issue it doesn't seem that Klopp knows how to remedy it. Koulibaly would have been a big improvement for example, but Klopp thinks he'd be no better than Liverpool's current crop.
Jurgen Klopp is limited, stubborn and overrated.
But Napoli wasn't going to sell Koulibaly. Bonucci would have been great too. Pique as well. Hummels. None of them were realistic targets
@PedroMendez Godin is poor and uncomfortable on the ball. He'd have a big negative impact on their overall attacking play compared to Lovren. He also wouldn't improve their ability to not give up goals by that much. He's slow, and uncomfortable whenever he has to play a high line
I agree that their defenders aren't good enough. That's evident. My point is that the defenders who are good enough, for the way they play and with no help or protection from the midfield, are few and far between and most of them already play on teams that will not sell them to liverpool. Signing someone like Evans wouldn't have made a big difference for them. Until Klopp manages to get into the heads of his top 6 and get them focused on following their defensive assignments beyond "pressing", liverpool's decence will keep being poor, unless they can sign two world class defenders.
Hence why i keep saying the player they should have signed was N'Zonzi. But clearly, Klopp believes this team is good enough to finish in the top 4. And it certainly is good enough to challenge for it.
My thoughts exactly as to why he didn't just go and sign any defender. FWIW, Sakho had a better season last year than Evans - Yet he looks half the player in Klopp's system. Compared to his Dortmund side, the player I really think they are missing is a Sven Bender!!