Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'

Swift Football

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Omg stop the presses! :lol: shocker we don’t score nearly as much against better sides. That’s a hell of a statement mate care to enlighten us?

People here need to grow up. Jose took a average squad and make them good. Pep took a good squad and had made them great. From where we’ve been in the last few seasons we can’t compete against the top just yet. It’s too soon. People expect because of how much we’ve spent we should be up there but much of what we’ve spent is in areas we were severely weak. With those areas shored up in the coming windows we’ll address the rest. Of this I am confident. But o get it. Instant success instantly
I agree. There is a huge gap between quality of the squad the expectations. Lets face it, our squad has been poor since last 5 seasons. RVP's goals won us the title in 2012/13, but the truth was we were not that great. It can also be observed if we look at our cup performances those time. Jose inherited a very weak squad and has brought some top players since taking over. But he will take some time to fully mould the team to what he wants.

We have scored a lot of goals this season, but that does not mean we have been mesmerising. But we definitely are much more solid team with much more quality and purpose in the play than 3/4 seasons back. Yes, ee have our shortcomings, but so does other teams. Overall, I am very happy with the direction our team is going.
 

zenith

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I agree, there is some further impetus required in our attacking play but don't think there is a need to bring in an attacking coach. Unfortunately, it would need another 100 million for summer to bring the squad fully up to take standards, beyond which we can look to control spending.

We need to upgrade our full backs because they are not getting any younger and need another no. 10, who can provide an effective link between pogba, lukaku and the wide men. With these sorted, our attacking play would increase manifold
 
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Womp

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Will similar threads be made about Poch if he joins? He failed to break down a managerless West Brom and got a worse result than us all the while having a superior squad to ours.
 

Raees

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Will similar threads be made about Poch if he joins? He failed to break down a managerless West Brom and got a worse result than us all the while having a superior squad to ours.
FWIW I reckon they would. He doesn't play with much width in terms of wingers and I reckon at United fans wouldn't like it ..
Personally I think the opening post of this thread is so weird. I remember reading Carlo Ancelotti's biography, he felt the need to praise Mourinho for leaving a brilliant set of training instructions. That praise was despite the bad blood between the two. Another source says this about those instructions:

,,
Training by 'the Bible'
Training is precise, intense and everything is with the ball; the session is still defined down to the exact number of minutes and Mourinho has his stopwatch and his clipboard. Mourinho also still has a ‘Bible’ which he began to compile when he was coaching the juniors at Vitoria de Setubal back in Portugal and which is the ‘training file’ that is made up of his ideas. He used to meticulously update it every day although given the body of work he has now achieved and his experience that is unlikely to still be the case.

Mourinho will sketch out a basic drawing of how he wants training to go – even where the equipment will be placed and so on – he will meet with the medical staff every day and he will even go out on to the training pitches to inspect the length of the grass and make sure they are properly watered. He will, he says, never be late, either, although that is not always the case given the demands upon a modern-day manager."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...s-relentless-methods-jose-mourinho-and-his-b/

Mourinho has had so many jobs as an assistent-coach. I've seen countless of praise for his methods by top players. I've seen hundreds of wonderful attacking performances from his teams over the years. This all opposed to the 'sources' OP is referring too without linking to them.

Now we've been utterly poor attacking wise since Ferguson left. Moyes, struggled. Van Gaal struggled to have us create chances. Mourinho struggled with this last season too, for sure, but I'm also quite sure it's not just him.

I just checked, from the looks of it we still are second in terms of goals scored this year. 18 teams have scored less goals than us in the league, 1 team has scored more. We have scored more goals than Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, should they hire an attacking coach too? I personally think this actually is our best year in terms of attacking performances since Ferguson retired and I'm happy we're finally on the way up attacking wise, and I think this is down to Mourinho's methods more than anything. So yeah, I really just don't see where 'Mourinho sucks at setting up a team properly so he must hire an attacking coach' fits in, other than people getting a bit frustrated or hysterical.

The reason why we struggle even this season to create at times is psychological I think. Teams are always out to get Manchester United's scalp. Plenty of smaller teams come to Old Trafford to play their match of the year, with the same intensity as a cup final. Ten men behind the ball is the norm. It's just really hard for any team to easily brush teams with a mentality like that aside, you even see it in games with professional vs. amateur teams. Still though, we've been looking pretty good at dealing with set-ups like that this season.
The players appreciated Mourinho’s attention to detail, which he showed in videos of forthcoming opponents. Future World Cup winner Laurent Blanc, who was at Barcelona for a season, would seek Mourinho’s video analysis and take them home to study opponents. Those Barça players not as studious were quick to be criticised by Mourinho. “We’ve told Ronaldo [Spain’s top scorer that season] it’s no good scoring a wonder goal and then spending the other 89 minutes sleeping,” he said in 1996.

Mourinho had learned much and observed: “One of the most important things I learned from Bobby Robson is that when you win, you shouldn’t assume you are the best, and when you lose, you shouldn’t think you are rubbish. Bobby Robson is not so interested in study and systems or planning of training sessions. He’s 
a field man, who thrives on direct contact with the players. He is also a coach dedicated to attack. If we divide the game into three areas of build-up, you would say Bobby Robson’s work is to focus on the final third. It meant that a lot of the emphasis of my work was towards the defence.”

As for his many assistant manager jobs, he only had one and that was at Barcelona.

He says that under Bobby whilst he understood the primacy of attacking football, he wanted it organised better and the organisation stems directly from defence.

Under Van Gaal it isn't clear which areas he coached on, but we also know that from his days as a scout for his father he was doing reports on how to stop the opposition and thus it has played a big part of his career - how to stop the opposition first and foremost followed by how to exploit their weaknesses. That defence first mentality was clear throughout his career. Whereas someone like Pep will focus more on his own teams performance and patterns of play.. believing that will take care of the opposition. No right or wrong way of going about it but complete fantasy to claim he was some kind of attacking assistant coach who was famed for his brilliant attacking sessions as a coach/assistant manager.
 

EyeInTheSky

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Times change and managers need to as well. What worked even 5 years ago, won’t work now.

Fergie knew this and made the necessary changes to his backroom staff at regular intervals. When we fell short in Europe, he brought in CQ to revolution our play.

Mourinho has had pretty much the exact same coaching staff for about 10 years now.

Our style of play is horrifically dated. Something has to change!
What about 2 years ago or when he won the league? What about Just recently where he won the league cup and Europa cup?

Congrats on refuting yourself
 

Witchking

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What about 2 years ago or when he won the league? What about Just recently where he won the league cup and Europa cup?

Congrats on refuting yourself
And how was the football when we won the Europa last season? How was the football yesterday? What excuses can be used, now that Pogba and others have returned? Why do they players play as if they are playing for together for the first time? Answers to all this is Jose. He needs to work with the team on a bit more expansive game.

It's really frustrating to watch United play and win with an own goal at home against a newly promoted team.

It's scary to see what city might do to united and i only see Jose going defensive again versus City and in the knockout stages.
 

kps88

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To suggest one of the most successful managers in the game needs an attacking coach is a bit silly, even more so when we're second in the league for goals scored.

It's more a style of play issue, made to look a lot worse due to what Pep is doing at City. We knew his philosophy when we hired him; wanting him to change now would just make things worse.
 

duffer

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Whats your take on it as a Chelsea fan. Do you think he's lack in that respect?
Nope, not at all.

His teams play a certain way because that's what he wants, not because he does not know how to attack.

He is one of the most successful managers ever. It's a ludicrous suggestion.
 

Treble

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Jose has a fantastic record and it should be respected. He has been one of the smartest managers around.

At the same time, things change and many great managers can't maintain their ability over 2 decades. Fergie was unique, not many are like him. He was clever enough to hire great assistants.

Benitez was a top manager a decade ago and won any big trophy in Spain, Europe and England bar the PL title. He isn't too old but his methods do not work as well as a decade ago. Football has moved, Benitez not so much.

Jose is better and more flexible than Benitez but there are legitimate worries that he isn't as brilliant as he was at Chelsea 1 and Inter. It is not very convincing, imo, to cite the trophies from last season as a counter argument. For one, there wasn't much competitiion for these trophies: Hull, Soton, Celta and Ajax in the semis and the finals. And a lot of luck against Soton to boot. For another thing, 6th in the league after adding Pogba, Zlatan, Bailly and Mkhi was very poor. The title with Chelsea 2 came in a season in which there wasn't much competition too as the big teams were in transition and poor in Europe. His CL performances at Chelsea 2 were unimpressive too.

Is Jose still one of the best? December will give some hints. He is doing an experiment at United by assembling the tallest squad in the top leagues. His hope is that having big and technically good players can counter the advantages of both high pressing and well-organised defences: by hoofing the ball to giants like Lukaku, Zlatan, Fellaini and Pogba and also Smalling and the other CBs from set pieces you can come to terms with intense pressing and deeply sitting defences. He hasn't done anything like that at previous teams: Chelsea 1 and Inter didn't have very tall squads. Many people on here do not realise that Jose is experimenting right now. And he is doing it because football has changed and his usual methods work neither vs high pressing nor vs packed defences. If the experiment succeeds, he will be heralded for his managerial nous. But if he fails, he will be regarded as a dino in today's football.
 
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TheOrgazoid

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Or Brighton, which I am gonna say you haven't watched all season, are actually a well drilled defensive side. 6th best in the league in fact, with a manager who knows how to tactically set up a team. Yawn
Cool.
Let's see what you said when City play Brighton at the Etihad.

When City when like 6-0 and have about 30 shorsi at goal, you'll will be coming on here with the good old "well Brighton didn't try against City", will you?
 

Foxbatt

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I do not think Jose is going to play Martial and Rashford and Lukaku together anymore. He is right that the team was not balanced.
 

Henrik Larsson

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FWIW I reckon they would. He doesn't play with much width in terms of wingers and I reckon at United fans wouldn't like it ..


The players appreciated Mourinho’s attention to detail, which he showed in videos of forthcoming opponents. Future World Cup winner Laurent Blanc, who was at Barcelona for a season, would seek Mourinho’s video analysis and take them home to study opponents. Those Barça players not as studious were quick to be criticised by Mourinho. “We’ve told Ronaldo [Spain’s top scorer that season] it’s no good scoring a wonder goal and then spending the other 89 minutes sleeping,” he said in 1996.

Mourinho had learned much and observed: “One of the most important things I learned from Bobby Robson is that when you win, you shouldn’t assume you are the best, and when you lose, you shouldn’t think you are rubbish. Bobby Robson is not so interested in study and systems or planning of training sessions. He’s 
a field man, who thrives on direct contact with the players. He is also a coach dedicated to attack. If we divide the game into three areas of build-up, you would say Bobby Robson’s work is to focus on the final third. It meant that a lot of the emphasis of my work was towards the defence.”

As for his many assistant manager jobs, he only had one and that was at Barcelona.

He says that under Bobby whilst he understood the primacy of attacking football, he wanted it organised better and the organisation stems directly from defence.

Under Van Gaal it isn't clear which areas he coached on, but we also know that from his days as a scout for his father he was doing reports on how to stop the opposition and thus it has played a big part of his career - how to stop the opposition first and foremost followed by how to exploit their weaknesses. That defence first mentality was clear throughout his career. Whereas someone like Pep will focus more on his own teams performance and patterns of play.. believing that will take care of the opposition. No right or wrong way of going about it but complete fantasy to claim he was some kind of attacking assistant coach who was famed for his brilliant attacking sessions as a coach/assistant manager.
What makes you say he has had only one job as an assistent manager, at Barcelona? By all accounts he's had plenty of jobs as an assistent, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Mourinho#Coaching_career


I'm very much under the impression that Mourinho worked as a de facto assistent coach for his father too when he was a coach in Portugal, and also kept working as an (amateur) coach during the '87-'94 period, hence my comments about him having various jobs.

I'm also clearly not trying to say he was the best attacking coaching assistent ever or something in that ilk. By referring to his jobs as an assistant I was trying to make the point that he's well familiar with every function or job related to managing a football team. But then again these type of accusations shouldn't be a surprise since they're coming from a guy who felt the need to bump his own thread the moment we were struggling to create in a tough game.

To repeat my point in more simple sentences. I do not think we need an 'attacking coach', whatever that means. I think there's plenty of evidence that Mourinho has the knowledge and experience to set up a team properly in attack. I think the fact that we're second in terms goals scored this year after struggling for years de serves praise, much more than the childish whining every time we're not looking brilliant.

And for me the reason we struggle to create chances is much more psychological than about poor tactics or Mourinho being incompetent at setting up an attacking team. This is nothing new, for example Ferguson wrote about this in the letter he sent to Cantona in 1997:

,,I am sure you have been keeping an eye on our results and as you can see we are doing quite well as you know we have signed Teddy Sheringham to replace you but at the moment he is finding it difficult to find the space he got at Tottenham and is playing deep so we have some adjusting to do. Players sometimes don't realise how difficult it is to play at our level as every game is a Cup Final for our opponents so I just hope he can do it for us.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...e-left-manchester-united-i-kept-10513163.html
 
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Garethw

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What about 2 years ago or when he won the league? What about Just recently where he won the league cup and Europa cup?

Congrats on refuting yourself
You obviously think that Mourinho is above criticism, so there is no point in continuing this discussion.
 

Fortitude

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Is there any club with a specific attacking coach as well as a coach for other aspects of play?

The problem with suggesting this for Mourinho is that the defensive positions he demands of his personnel are in direct opposition to the philosophies of attacking systems and patterns. i.e. if you're in position to do the latter, you're not in position to do the former... so to marry the two together is almost impossible, I think.

When we lose the ball, our players mindlessly drop back into defensive shape like drones, by doing so, all offensive states are reset and anything that is initialised is then done so from scratch once again. Attacking teams do not have this as a concern as they will immediately press the ball as a collective and initialise the play from the exact moment they win the ball back no matter where that is. You do this enough times and it, and the fallout, become second nature.

Attacking play requires personnel, overloading, daring, availability and so forth - precisely the things that are going to have a defensive coach pulling his hair out the moment a play breaks down and everyone is a mile away from where he wants them to be.
 

Treble

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Is there any club with a specific attacking coach as well as a coach for other aspects of play?

The problem with suggesting this for Mourinho is that the defensive positions he demands of his personnel are in direct opposition to the philosophies of attacking systems and patterns. i.e. if you're in position to do the latter, you're not in position to do the former... so to marry the two together is almost impossible, I think.

When we lose the ball, our players mindlessly drop back into defensive shape like drones, by doing so, all offensive states are reset and anything that is initialised is then done so from scratch once again. Attacking teams do not have this as a concern as they will immediately press the ball as a collective and initialise the play from the exact moment they win the ball back no matter where that is. You do this enough times and it, and the fallout, become second nature.

Attacking play requires personnel, overloading, daring, availability and so forth - precisely the things that are going to have a defensive coach pulling his hair out the moment a play breaks down and everyone is a mile away from where he wants them to be.
Good points. One cannot have one approach for defence and completely different for attacking patterns. The approach should be holistic: both defence and attack are inseparable parts of the game.
 
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EyeInTheSky

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You obviously think that Mourinho is above criticism, so there is no point in continuing this discussion.
No, you have just made an erroneous claim while contradicting yourself at the same time. I merely pointed out the factual errors on your post and now due to a lack of a valid point you have decided to run away and claim that I think that Mourinho is "above criticism" which is something I have not said or ever claimed for that matter. The particular discussion is based on actual measurable and verifiable facts. The claim made was that he does not know or is incapable or is poor at coaching attacking play or attackers and I alongside some others pointed out that the facts (goals scored by his teams throughout his whole career) that are completely reconcilable with that claim.

People can argue subjectively about a particular style they would like to see but they can't argue the demonstrably wrong claim that his teams don't score a good number of goals. What we find, time and again, is that people who did not or do not want him here will say anything to put forward a negative spin to make their claims or themselves feel vindicated.

To summarise I do not think he is above criticism I just think he is above the level you and a loud minority would like us to believe...
 

dichinero

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Attack is the new defence. Some concentration on defensive football will not cut it in the league anymore , maybe in the cup competitions. The best teams in recent years have subscribed to this approach. If nothing changes, we will be left behind
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Is there any club with a specific attacking coach as well as a coach for other aspects of play?

The problem with suggesting this for Mourinho is that the defensive positions he demands of his personnel are in direct opposition to the philosophies of attacking systems and patterns. i.e. if you're in position to do the latter, you're not in position to do the former... so to marry the two together is almost impossible, I think.

When we lose the ball, our players mindlessly drop back into defensive shape like drones, by doing so, all offensive states are reset and anything that is initialised is then done so from scratch once again. Attacking teams do not have this as a concern as they will immediately press the ball as a collective and initialise the play from the exact moment they win the ball back no matter where that is. You do this enough times and it, and the fallout, become second nature.

Attacking play requires personnel, overloading, daring, availability and so forth - precisely the things that are going to have a defensive coach pulling his hair out the moment a play breaks down and everyone is a mile away from where he wants them to be.
True, and his reluctance to apply systematic pressing (by systematic i mean the players hunting for the ball in packs, not just closing down the first attacker in order to help the defensive transition) or at least show aggression to steal balls in the defensive half so that the chances of creating a chance through a counter-attack become more and better is one of the things that make him look like he's lost his mojo. It has indeed become a regularity for transition teams nowadays to a point where a manager like Klopp, whose sides offer very little apart from his famous gegenpress, can get reputed jobs and do relatively well. It's also in these deeper positions he leaves "unprotected" where Guardiola finds good creativity and beats him almost every time.

But the chances are that Mourinho won't change what he probably considers to be one of his basic principles. So, the real question is what can he do? I think we've reached the point where he's started to understand that more players need to be involved in the attacking plays. It's one thing to have a forward harassing the CBs and creating spaces in between the lines plus a world-class player who can dribble, pass and shoot and a magnificent play-maker and say "this is all i need to win the league" when these players are readymade and tried solutions like Costa, Hazard and Fabregas. Not just potential but the real thing right here and right now. And the real thing not only technically but also mentally.

When we started the season the attacking patterns seemed to be typical of Mourinho. Utilize Pogba to transition the ball smoothly out from the back and then have Mkhitaryan playing centrally and trying to connect the midfield with the attack. When the counter-attack was unsuccessful the plan was to overload one of the sides. We often use(d) the right flank to do that with Valencia hugging the touchline in order to provide width, Mata cutting inside to work the spaces between the lines and try to link up with Lukaku, Pogba trying to spot passes from a bit deeper. If that didn't work (and most of the times it didn't) we used Mkhitaryan as a conduit in order to safely switch sides where one of Rashford and Martial was waiting for the ball in order to go 1v1 with the left back staying initially a bit deeper to provide support to one of the youngsters.

It could have been enough but in our case, it wasn't. Miki/Mata perform below par thus far and Pogba got injured. Lindelof, who was a bought to be our ball playing CB, needing time to adjust didn't help the cause either. With no ball-playing CB (Bailly has missed many games too), Pogba out for so long and Mkhitaryan underperforming the transitions soon became dire. And Mourinho depends a lot on his transitions in order to create chances. Because when these transitions are fine-tuned he feels most confident. When they don't, his "safety first" approach prevails. I believe that the only thing that kept Mkhitaryan on the pitch for so long is that he was always willing to close down the first attacker whenever we lost possession high up the pitch. That's basically the only thing he's improved in his game since last season. The logic that "if i keep things tight in the middle of the park with Matic-Herera-Miki" the one goal will come.

And here we reach the point when (some of) this forum started "fuming" against him. In order to stay compact and grind out wins week after week you need your "go to" men able to carry the team on their shoulders. United still lack in this department. There's potential there, of course, but Lukaku isn't yet the poacher who will get the job done even when the service is limited, Martial/Rashford are still going through lots of ups and downs, Pogba still needs to adapt to his role as a leader and Miki/Mata offer little in terms of end product. And all of them need to mature collectively.

The latter is not on Mourinho. There are some things you can teach and some things that the players have to work out for themselves. When you see players unable to perform even the most basic of tasks, there's usually more than meets the eye. For example, yesterday we defended deep because we were tactically set to do so. But whenever we got the ball back all our players did was hoof it back to the Brighton players although there were better options, there were teammates of theirs attacking the spaces and making themselves available for a pass. This is simply unacceptable at this level.

And it's not the first time we've seen it. One thing Mourinho's still really good at is nullifying most of the advantages the opposition can have on the pitch and at the same time surgically instructing his players how to attack a particular weakness of the opponent. We saw it against Spurs, he had targeted the space behind Aurier. And although we were trying frantically to get the ball towards that area, the players for once insisted on performing the task. And they were rewarded in the end. But most of the times we seem to lose our calm when the opponent turns on the pressure a bit. In that infamous game at Anfield we actually started the game well with Valencia getting three or four times behind Moreno and putting good crosses in the box. But after Liverpool's first good spell in the game, the players went hiding in their shells. I don't think that's something you can teach to a player.

Now, we're seeing both Martial and Rashford trying to operate in the half-spaces with Pogba having more play-making duties and both FBs pushing forward. Let's see how this will pan out and how Mourinho will approach the next three games.
 

dichinero

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True, and his reluctance to apply systematic pressing (by systematic i mean the players hunting for the ball in packs, not just closing down the first attacker in order to help the defensive transition) or at least show aggression to steal balls in the defensive half so that the chances of creating a chance through a counter-attack become more and better is one of the things that make him look like he's lost his mojo. It has indeed become a regularity for transition teams nowadays to a point where a manager like Klopp, whose sides offer very little apart from his famous gegenpress, can get reputed jobs and do relatively well. It's also in these deeper positions he leaves "unprotected" where Guardiola finds good creativity and beats him almost every time.

But the chances are that Mourinho won't change what he probably considers to be one of his basic principles. So, the real question is what can he do? I think we've reached the point where he's started to understand that more players need to be involved in the attacking plays. It's one thing to have a forward harassing the CBs and creating spaces in between the lines plus a world-class player who can dribble, pass and shoot and a magnificent play-maker and say "this is all i need to win the league" when these players are readymade and tried solutions like Costa, Hazard and Fabregas. Not just potential but the real thing right here and right now. And the real thing not only technically but also mentally.

When we started the season the attacking patterns seemed to be typical of Mourinho. Utilize Pogba to transition the ball smoothly out from the back and then have Mkhitaryan playing centrally and trying to connect the midfield with the attack. When the counter-attack was unsuccessful the plan was to overload one of the sides. We often use(d) the right flank to do that with Valencia hugging the touchline in order to provide width, Mata cutting inside to work the spaces between the lines and try to link up with Lukaku, Pogba trying to spot passes from a bit deeper. If that didn't work (and most of the times it didn't) we used Mkhitaryan as a conduit in order to safely switch sides where one of Rashford and Martial was waiting for the ball in order to go 1v1 with the left back staying initially a bit deeper to provide support to one of the youngsters.

It could have been enough but in our case, it wasn't. Miki/Mata perform below par thus far and Pogba got injured. Lindelof, who was a bought to be our ball playing CB, needing time to adjust didn't help the cause either. With no ball-playing CB (Bailly has missed many games too), Pogba out for so long and Mkhitaryan underperforming the transitions soon became dire. And Mourinho depends a lot on his transitions in order to create chances. Because when these transitions are fine-tuned he feels most confident. When they don't, his "safety first" approach prevails. I believe that the only thing that kept Mkhitaryan on the pitch for so long is that he was always willing to close down the first attacker whenever we lost possession high up the pitch. That's basically the only thing he's improved in his game since last season. The logic that "if i keep things tight in the middle of the park with Matic-Herera-Miki" the one goal will come.

And here we reach the point when (some of) this forum started "fuming" against him. In order to stay compact and grind out wins week after week you need your "go to" men able to carry the team on their shoulders. United still lack in this department. There's potential there, of course, but Lukaku isn't yet the poacher who will get the job done even when the service is limited, Martial/Rashford are still going through lots of ups and downs, Pogba still needs to adapt to his role as a leader and Miki/Mata offer little in terms of end product. And all of them need to mature collectively.

The latter is not on Mourinho. There are some things you can teach and some things that the players have to work out for themselves. When you see players unable to perform even the most basic of tasks, there's usually more than meets the eye. For example, yesterday we defended deep because we were tactically set to do so. But whenever we got the ball back all our players did was hoof it back to the Brighton players although there were better options, there were teammates of theirs attacking the spaces and making themselves available for a pass. This is simply unacceptable at this level.

And it's not the first time we've seen it. One thing Mourinho's still really good at is nullifying most of the advantages the opposition can have on the pitch and at the same time surgically instructing his players how to attack a particular weakness of the opponent. We saw it against Spurs, he had targeted the space behind Aurier. And although we were trying frantically to get the ball towards that area, the players for once insisted on performing the task. And they were rewarded in the end. But most of the times we seem to lose our calm when the opponent turns on the pressure a bit. In that infamous game at Anfield we actually started the game well with Valencia getting three or four times behind Moreno and putting good crosses in the box. But after Liverpool's first good spell in the game, the players went hiding in their shells. I don't think that's something you can teach to a player.

Now, we're seeing both Martial and Rashford trying to operate in the half-spaces with Pogba having more play-making duties and both FBs pushing forward. Let's see how this will pan out and how Mourinho will approach the next three games.
Long read but worth the read. There is no denying that José is primarily a defensive coach, prioritising not conceding goal over creating opportunities. That's is his prerogative, and seeing that it has served him in the past, fair play to him.

Imo, his focus on defensive organisation and stifling the opposition is so high that he solely relies on individual brilliance in the attacking department. Which is why if one key player is out, the whole team is a right mess as far as attacking is concerned. It may have worked in the past but even the so called minnows are becoming more savvy in defence and in attack as well.

Under José, there is no balance. It's so tipped towards the defensive extreme that players are so poor in transition and there is no cohesion, nor tactical nous or discipline in attack. I doubt we even spend enough time doing attack in training, as testified by former players in Madrid and Chelsea.

The only way we have any sort of joy in attack is when Pogba is at the helm of things. And because of the lack of attacking directions, Pogba MUST be carefree which is why it seems like he can be annoyingly Ill-disciplined at times. He is the only player, I believe, that José trusts to have a defensive presence first and still be able to influence the attacking sides of things. Any other attacking player that wants to be given this licence must first be super adept at the defensive side of his responsibility. This is why the likes of Rashford would forever be trusted over Martial.

We just have to accept that José will not change his ways and this my gripe with him . And to be somewhat fair, I played and coached football to a degree to know that it is very hard work and demands a crazy level of obsession to the tactically adept at attacking football and still sound defensively. Actually, the former is more mentally demanding. Which is why you hear that the likes of Jardim, Poch, Sarri, Pep and even the upcoming Marco Silva border on the psychotic when it comes to details. They are what many people like to refer is students of the game. People that make attackers focus primarily on attack, and defenders focus primarily on defence. It must mentally exhausting to asks players like Martial and Hazard to devote more time than required to focus on stuff against their grain, season in, season out. And people wonder why there is always a capitulation after his second season and his attacking players are the first to go off the boil. Unless a treasure like his Inter side falls in his lap, his success and reign will always be short lived.

It's a sacrifice that I expect from a world class manager. As much as I am not a fan of José's approach, I've maintained that an evolved José will be take him to a whole new level.

But why should the leopard change it's spots when it has fed him well so far? The terrain of the jungle has changed and is ever changing. Adaptability is the key to success in football today. The only other solution is to bring in someone that understands the attacking side of the game more than José does. Jose belongs to the old school of football and like Fergurson, he'll be wise to know that he can't do it buy himself and bring a balance to both extremes of the game.

Fergie imo, is the best manager of all time, not because he was a master tactician or recruiter of talent but because he could manage personnel and effectively synergise different graces in the coaching sense. I don't know how many managers can remain successful with a continuous reflux of coaching staff. A fresh pair of eyes does wonders. The over reliance of the same right hand men for decades will result in the inevitable complacency, lack of new ideas, resistance to change etc.

If José is going to be successful at United, he'd better drop his ego and learn from the best United manager. Change or get fresh people in.

Or just heavily rely £££m and trust in individual brilliance.

Or just go to his dream job in PSG
 

Adisa

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You've heard of Steve Bould coming in as a defensive coach for Arsenal. So there are attacking coaches all over the place.
Steve Bould is Wenger's assistant, he was never listed as a defensive coach. Just because he was a defender, doesn't make him a defensive coach.
 

dichinero

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Steve Bould is Wenger's assistant, he was never listed as a defensive coach. Just because he was a defender, doesn't make him a defensive coach.
I'm almost certain that I've seen players and ex players that he was brought in and given the responsibility to help in the defensive side of things.

If I have the time, I'll look for a source for you to confirm it.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Long read but worth the read. There is no denying that José is primarily a defensive coach, prioritising not conceding goal over creating opportunities. That's is his prerogative, and seeing that it has served him in the past, fair play to him.

Imo, his focus on defensive organisation and stifling the opposition is so high that he solely relies on individual brilliance in the attacking department. Which is why if one key player is out, the whole team is a right mess as far as attacking is concerned. It may have worked in the past but even the so called minnows are becoming more savvy in defence and in attack as well.

Under José, there is no balance. It's so tipped towards the defensive extreme that players are so poor in transition and there is no cohesion, nor tactical nous or discipline in attack. I doubt we even spend enough time doing attack in training, as testified by former players in Madrid and Chelsea.

The only way we have any sort of joy in attack is when Pogba is at the helm of things. And because of the lack of attacking directions, Pogba MUST be carefree which is why it seems like he can be annoyingly Ill-disciplined at times. He is the only player, I believe, that José trusts to have a defensive presence first and still be able to influence the attacking sides of things. Any other attacking player that wants to be given this licence must first be super adept at the defensive side of his responsibility. This is why the likes of Rashford would forever be trusted over Martial.

We just have to accept that José will not change his ways and this my gripe with him . And to be somewhat fair, I played and coached football to a degree to know that it is very hard work and demands a crazy level of obsession to the tactically adept at attacking football and still sound defensively. Actually, the former is more mentally demanding. Which is why you hear that the likes of Jardim, Poch, Sarri, Pep and even the upcoming Marco Silva border on the psychotic when it comes to details. They are what many people like to refer is students of the game. People that make attackers focus primarily on attack, and defenders focus primarily on defence. It must mentally exhausting to asks players like Martial and Hazard to devote more time than required to focus on stuff against their grain, season in, season out. And people wonder why there is always a capitulation after his second season and his attacking players are the first to go off the boil. Unless a treasure like his Inter side falls in his lap, his success and reign will always be short lived.

It's a sacrifice that I expect from a world class manager. As much as I am not a fan of José's approach, I've maintained that an evolved José will be take him to a whole new level.

But why should the leopard change it's spots when it has fed him well so far? The terrain of the jungle has changed and is ever changing. Adaptability is the key to success in football today. The only other solution is to bring in someone that understands the attacking side of the game more than José does. Jose belongs to the old school of football and like Fergurson, he'll be wise to know that he can't do it buy himself and bring a balance to both extremes of the game.

Fergie imo, is the best manager of all time, not because he was a master tactician or recruiter of talent but because he could manage personnel and effectively synergise different graces in the coaching sense. I don't know how many managers can remain successful with a continuous reflux of coaching staff. A fresh pair of eyes does wonders. The over reliance of the same right hand men for decades will result in the inevitable complacency, lack of new ideas, resistance to change etc.

If José is going to be successful at United, he'd better drop his ego and learn from the best United manager. Change or get fresh people in.

Or just heavily rely £££m and trust in individual brilliance.

Or just go to his dream job in PSG
Some very good points in there. I certainly agree with the notion that he needs to adapt his game to the particularities of modern football. I also believe he understands it and this maybe is the reason for his perpetual grumpiness over the last years. As i said in my first post, i don't expect him to completely change his ways but moderate alterations i'm sure he can think of. For instance, one of Tottenham's biggest strengths is that they tend to keep a relatively high defensive line and they apply pressing in the middle of the pitch. Not a very high line and not a very high press but it gets the job done in the sense that it allows them to win the ball in the middle of the park and hit the opposition right at its weakest point, between transitions (instead of going all the way back and then move the ball all the way up again as Fortitude mentioned in his post). I don't think that this is beyond his "teaching" capabilities or that it asks of him to betray his basic managerial principles. I'll wait and see what happens since this season i see a manager who at least acknowledges some things need fixing even though the changes he tries are not the ones some of us expect or wish.

I don't think he'll get a war chest from Woodward to buy himself the top side he wants. He'll get money for transfers all right, lots of it, but (for example) he won't get it to sign two world-class wingers when the club wants to invest on both Martial and Rashford. I might be wrong about this but i think this is one of the things for which he will have to find a solution on his own. I suspect that the final outcome of all minor to moderate alterations he will try in the attacking half of the pitch, because unlike LvG or Moyes he's started trying things, will play a big role in the pressure he will put on Woodward for transfers next summers and it will eventually determine his future relationship with the club (contract extension or not).

Having said that, i don't think that he's completely past it as some suggest. I acknowledge that the three most successful clubs in Europe lately, Real Madrid-Barcelona and Bayern Munich, play a far more pro-active type of football. It's also evident that all the more sides in the big European leagues attempt to make room in their starting lineups for more creative players instead of runners and hard workers. But, in the case of the three aforementioned clubs, we must also take into consideration that there are certain characteristics in the environments of their national leagues (separate TV deals in Spain, sugar daddies not allowed in Germany) which allow them to separate themselves from the rest of their competition and attract the cream of the crop out of pools of native talent that are currently much better than anything the island has to offer. Other than that, transition sides can be as antagonistic as the possession-based ones IMO. And i'm saying this as a fan of possesion football.

What i don't agree much with is that Mourinho doesn't teach any patterns of attacking play. I wrote in another thread that i can't believe that, in an era when any coaching staff has the means to watch and micro-analyze every bit of detail not only of a team's performance but of any individual player's performance, there's one single guy out there who's achieved being the most decorated manager over the last 15 years by simply neglecting what is basically half the game itself (the plays when a team has the ball). That's getting away with murder and i have watched so many of Mourinho's sides to believe that he's not getting away with murder.

What i believe is that this set of players can't execute his instructions to perfection. This doesn't mean that it's not a good set of players by any means, as some on here have suggested. Firstly, Mourinho's a very demanding and even draining, both physically and mentally, attacking plan. Because Mourinho is a defensive minded coach, he uses his astute defensive tactics to force the opponent to over commit players and then he wants the transitions to work with the bare minimum of players that are needed to complete the move from start to finish. This demands of the players very aggressive off the ball movement with dynamic-vertical runs, very quick thinking and exquisite technical skills. This is one difference (sometimes a strength, sometimes a weakness) he has from other transition/counter-attacking managers out there, Fergie included. You see, Ferguson always planned to take things from the second line of attack, from players from deeper positions. It's not that he prioritized attack over defense like some believe (it's never that simple) but he always relied on players from behind to contribute their share into pinning the opposition down and maintaining a high tempo/keeping a move alive and going. And by doing that he could rotate heavily and tinker with the players' roles because even the most important ones among them weren't the be-all end-all of his game plan. Whereas Mourinho drowned in a spoonful of water against Rafa's own parked bus twice and completely lost the plot against Dortmund when the most useful cog in his teams' wheel, Di Maria, missed the game.

But also keep in mind that when Ferguson came as close as he ever did to Mourinho's line of tactical thinking in 07-08 and 08-09 he was mostly successful. But then again he had an amazing attacking triangle and he often could afford to rotate Giggs and Scoles in their early 30's. Which i think would be Mou's line of defense, if someone showed him a thread like this one.

I think Mourinho can still make it work, one way or the other. I don't always like the football but for the first time in 5 years i (think i) can see what we're trying to do on the pitch even if it's not easy on the eye for many of us. But we'll see what happens, the next three games will tell us more about where we stand and what we can expect until the end of the season.
 

Damien

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I've never heard of an attacking coach.
Part of Arteta's role as assistant coach at City is to help in attack:

“Mikel Arteta [one of Guardiola’s assistant coaches] is working many hours and days after training specifically about the last action on the pitch – that control in the last moment to make the right movement in the final three or four metres. Raheem has wanted to stay there, to improve, to practise, to shoot at the goalkeepers. It’s part of the mentality he needs. He knows a striker has to score goals and he has to do that if he wants to achieve the next step.

“You won’t survive in the high-level teams in his position if you don’t score goals. Now the confidence is there and the club has new players coming in who can score goals. I think it’s mainly because he’s decided that he wants to score goals, that he can do that and that he is enjoying it.

“His final pass still has to improve – he has to do it better. He has got better but he can still do [even] better. But we can’t forget that he is [only] 22 years old. We demand a lot of these kind of players. But he is curious and he will improve. He’s young and he has time and we are there to help him.”
 

dichinero

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What i don't agree much with is that Mourinho doesn't teach any patterns of attacking play. I wrote in another thread that i can't believe that, in an era when any coaching staff has the means to watch and micro-analyze every bit of detail not only of a team's performance but of any individual player's performance, there's one single guy out there who's achieved being the most decorated manager over the last 15 years by simply neglecting what is basically half the game itself (the plays when a team has the ball). That's getting away with murder and i have watched so many of Mourinho's sides to believe that he's not getting away with murder.

Good post and read overrall but I want to respond to this section.

I too, did not believe it until a player (whose name escapes me right now) that played under him at Madrid said in an interview that José paid little attention to the attacking side of the game but was heavily invested in nullifying the opponent. Hazard said something along the lines that the main difference between José and Conte is the tactical instructions and approach that allows him to flourish. I've always wondered why the attacking players seem to go up a level or two when José gets the sack.

I think there is a difference in asking players to go and attack and actually having intricate attacking drills and instructions. At best, we look like a bunch of players asked to just run at the opponent and make something happen. It has been said that Pep took what LvG and intentionally modified what happens in the final third. Ribery said that Pep will plan how they approach different sections of the attacking phase and drill them over and over to it became embedded in them, and then he will allow room for creative freedom.

It's just the way I see it but it is evident in how we attack at times, no one has a clue what they should be doing. Last season, we had one main approach; get it to Pogba who was only going to try a long range shot or try to find Zlatan, no wonder he had a crazy amount of passes and chances to Zlatan and the other players had a low amount. We need a bit more with in that area and if we are sticking with José, an attacking coach with a fresh pair of eyes and ideas would be the way forward. It says everything, when José and his assistant; Rui Faria are inherently fitness coaches really.
 

Android1974

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Just pay someone to spy on Sarri's training attacking methods. Mourinho needs to get up to date.
 

redIndianDevil

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I don't see Mourinho changing his methods, I don't think we have the players that can do what Mourinho expects, just like people have pointed out, our team when defending or having lost possession are not pressing effectively to win it back immediately and always seem to resort to forming 2 banks of 4 to defend the box, this against even the smallest of teams. In this week's game instead of pressing Knockaert we just let him take a run at Young and try to defend the cross, while it worked, there were instances when his crosses just missed everyone, a smarter or a better poacher would have tapped one in, imagine what better teams would do to us if we give their forwards space and time. This deep block also nullifies our attack a bit because after winning the ball our players now have the entire pitch to cover so they resort to hoofing it to Lukaku to get a counter going, its really not going to work especially in a league where a lot of teams employ this strategy.

I don't see us winning the league this season, Guardiola's team is well rested, well rotated and they will walk it by Christmas IMO.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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An attacking coach?

Tell them how to run?

Tell them when and where to shoot?

Tell them how to score?

Mmmm...maybe we just need to let the youngsters learn their trade...and buy a proven 25 goal a season striker who already knows these things. Then the kids can learn from him...

Kind of like we are doing now with Ibrahimovic I guess!
 

TotalFootballOne

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I don't see Mourinho changing his methods, I don't think we have the players that can do what Mourinho expects, just like people have pointed out, our team when defending or having lost possession are not pressing effectively to win it back immediately and always seem to resort to forming 2 banks of 4 to defend the box, this against even the smallest of teams. In this week's game instead of pressing Knockaert we just let him take a run at Young and try to defend the cross, while it worked, there were instances when his crosses just missed everyone, a smarter or a better poacher would have tapped one in, imagine what better teams would do to us if we give their forwards space and time. This deep block also nullifies our attack a bit because after winning the ball our players now have the entire pitch to cover so they resort to hoofing it to Lukaku to get a counter going, its really not going to work especially in a league where a lot of teams employ this strategy.

I don't see us winning the league this season, Guardiola's team is well rested, well rotated and they will walk it by Christmas IMO.
Too early to predict this.
 

prtk0811

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He needs to work on ball circulation, Ball retention in high press and better use of space and number of personel invloved in final third.
 

Raees

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Jose and his current coaching staff are not upto it on this front imo. Clear as day .. even Bristol looked more cohesive and attacked with more patterns whereas we just looked so random in possession and off the cuff. Not good enough for a supposedly elite side looking to win titles. We're grinding out results constantly for a long while Pogba or no Pogba
 

RedDevils23

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I've been saying this for years. Ever since Queiroz left, our attacking play has been DIRE. We have ZERO off the ball movement or attacking cohesion. I think every player in our squad has forgotten what a one touch pass is, how to pass and position themselves in triangles, how to make off the ball runs to either create space for a teammate or to stretch the opposition defense. It's a joke. We can spend another 400+ million and nothing will change unless the coaching changes. We're talking about a squad with collective attacking ability through the roof - Pogba, Martial, Lukaku, Ibrahimovic, Rashford, and yet we are so static and unimaginative in the attacking third. No added personnel will change that. I'm convinced that if we have Messi in our squad we'd make him look shite with our play "style".

By the way, this isn't a knock on Mourinho. I like him and think he's doing a decent job, but if he hired a dedicated attacking coach, we'd improve tenfold. Defensively and in the midfield we're doing a good job. Our attacking play is trash. And I don't fecking care that we've scored the 2nd most goals in the league. That's largely due to late counter attacking goals vs poor opposition chasing a goal. The stats hide the fact that overall, we've struggled offensively. It's frustrating.
 

Sky1981

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I've been saying this for years. Ever since Queiroz left, our attacking play has been DIRE. We have ZERO off the ball movement or attacking cohesion. I think every player in our squad has forgotten what a one touch pass is, how to pass and position themselves in triangles, how to make off the ball runs to either create space for a teammate or to stretch the opposition defense. It's a joke. We can spend another 400+ million and nothing will change unless the coaching changes. We're talking about a squad with collective attacking ability through the roof - Pogba, Martial, Lukaku, Ibrahimovic, Rashford, and yet we are so static and unimaginative in the attacking third. No added personnel will change that. I'm convinced that if we have Messi in our squad we'd make him look shite with our play "style".

By the way, this isn't a knock on Mourinho. I like him and think he's doing a decent job, but if he hired a dedicated attacking coach, we'd improve tenfold. Defensively and in the midfield we're doing a good job. Our attacking play is trash. And I don't fecking care that we've scored the 2nd most goals in the league. That's largely due to late counter attacking goals vs poor opposition chasing a goal. The stats hide the fact that overall, we've struggled offensively. It's frustrating.
Wow. Brilliant idea. Why didn't everton think of that. They'd win the league next season.

Hmm.. If arsene hires a defensive coach they'll probably win a treble.

Maybe if england hires an attacking coach they'd win a world Cup
 

Infordin

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No offense, but watching United try to string an attack together is like watching checkers. One piece (player) moves at the time while everyone else is static.

You guys have the personnel to play attacking football. Lukaku, Ibrahimovic, Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Mkhitaryan and Mata are all good players. I think the problem is that

1) Mourinho doesn’t focus as much on playing with the ball as he does on keeping his defensive shape.
2) As a result, there is no collective understanding between the players going forward
 

DevilRed

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We're fine when we actually have a full first team selection of players. Especially at home, we are capable of sweeping away most teams by 3 or 4 goals.
 

Bobcat

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May sound like a knee jerk after yesterday, but honestly it something that has bothered me for a long time.

Lukaku is a proven PL striker, Rashford/Martial are some of the brightest young talent in the world, Mata/Miki are more than competent no 10, Pogba is maybe one of the best attacking CM's in the world....and still we look clueless in attack.

Can the current crop of players be upgraded? Sure, but then you are looking for the top, top players in the world. Imo the problem runs a lot deeper than that. A bigger problem than our players quality is how it often seems they have never played a game of football together when we are attacking, that we are looking at some allstar XI that never played in the same club.

Whenever someone has the ball, there is no clever runs, no one busting their arse to get in behind. There were loads of examples of this yesterday, but the best example came after Shaw had made a marauding run down the left and was in a great crossing position and we had exactly 1 player in the box. We can learn something from Liverpool in this regard, whenever they attack, they flood the box and very often if leads to a great chance and a goal.

Players who are not on the ball need to move their fecking feet. I am so sick of watching Martial/Rashford/Miki beat one or two players and then inevitably running into a wall of defenders because no one else bothered to help them out

We are good at defending as a unit, its about time we started attacking as one as well.