Silva
Full Member
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...labours-custom-union-plan-realistic-and-smart
In other words, they're being realistic and smart
In other words, they're being realistic and smart
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It's about 2 years too late for that. Faux membership is the only realistic path now.Realistic and smart is staying in the single market.
What makes it "2 years too late" to join the EEA?It's about 2 years too late for that. Faux membership is the only realistic path now.
It's political suicide post-referendum. If Labour the Tory backbenchers rebel and make it happen anyway, great, they take the heat themselves. But it won't work for either leader.What makes it "2 years too late" to join the EEA?
Heh, pre-Corbyn someone (like me) probably could've written that exact statement about austerity. Triangulation always finds a way.It's political suicide post-referendum. If Labour the Tory backbenchers rebel and make it happen anyway, great, they take the heat themselves. But it won't work for either leader.
Possibly, austerity had public support circa 2013-2015, but I don't think it ever had near the same love Brexit does from the general public. Brexit's more of an existential question than a dial people want at one level one year and another the next.Heh, pre-Corbyn someone (like me) probably could've written that exact statement about austerity. Triangulation always finds a way.
Over 30% of Labour voters supported Brexit and recent polls suggest a decent number want something done about immigration. Don't necessarily agree with them but again people need to stop pretending this isn't a thing.I don't buy the whole 'political suicide' thing. I can get how, with the majority of their voters supporting Brexit/hard Brexit, it's politically very difficult for May to support anything else. I don't understand the logic that says that the leader of the party whose members support soft Brexit/ no Brexit has to support hard Brexit or else risk political disaster. Arguments that suggest as much seem to act as a smoke screen for a leader who wanted Brexit to begin with and is now trying to find ways of making excuses for his complete lack of opposition to it despite leading a party whose MPs/members/voters/natural political sympathisers being against it.
You mean EFTA because you are currently members of the EEA and that's what you are leaving.What makes it "2 years too late" to join the EEA?
Yeah, they want a custom agreement and not a custom union since Brexit is the fruit of the unwillingness to be in an Union and the willingness to take all decisions unilaterally. And there is already a Custom Union that solves the Irish border issue.McDonnell on Marr:
"We will negotiate a customs union, which will solve the Irish border issue"
Incredible such things aren't even challenged any more.
Yeah, they want a custom agreement and not a custom union since Brexit is the fruit of the unwillingness to be in an Union and the willingness to take all decisions unilaterally. And there is already a Custom Union that solves the Irish border issue.
I think that I disagree. You are basically admitting that the two main parties are on the same page, logically it should mean that a large part of the population is on the same page too and they are for a hardish Brexit. And it kind of make sense when you believe that Brexit was more philosophical than practical, people like idea of telling the rest of the EU to do one while they ride off into the sunset. The only problem is that people want Brexit without the consequences, which could explain why people are so keen to just dismiss them.It's identical to the bilge the Tories come out with. The Tories think they can negotiate a deal that retains all the benefits of the customs union without membership and magic away the Irish border issue - and the Labour party think they can negotiate a deal that retains all the benefits of the customs union without membership and magic way the Irish border.
Spending time negotiating to get what we already have to appease supporters of a political party that virtually no longer exists takes some time to get your head around.
It's hilarious the number of posters here who seem to want to pretend there currently exists huge, partisan chasm between the two parties. The solution is obvious - aggressively challenge the Farage-led assertion that the vote was a vote to leave the customs union and single market. Even now I don't think it's too late to make that argument but nobody seems willing to want to. Nobody of note anyway.
If the two main parties aren't on the same page then what are the substantive differences.I think that I disagree. You are basically admitting that the two main parties are on the same page, logically it should mean that a large part of the population is on the same page too and they are for a hardish Brexit. And it kind of make sense when you believe that Brexit was more philosophical than practical, people like idea of telling the rest of the EU to do one while they ride off into the sunset. The only problem is that people want Brexit without the consequences, which could explain why people are so keen to just dismiss them.
I think the placement of your comma in McDonnells quote is wrong and has changed the semantics.It's identical to the bilge the Tories come out with. The Tories think they can negotiate a deal that retains all the benefits of the customs union without membership and magic away the Irish border issue - and the Labour party think they can negotiate a deal that retains all the benefits of the customs union without membership and magic way the Irish border.
Spending time negotiating to get what we already have to appease supporters of a political party that virtually no longer exists takes some time to get your head around.
It's hilarious the number of posters here who seem to want to pretend there currently exists huge, partisan chasm between the two parties. The solution is obvious - aggressively challenge the Farage-led assertion that the vote was a vote to leave the customs union and single market. Even now I don't think it's too late to make that argument but nobody seems willing to want to. Nobody of note anyway.
I haven't been clear, my disagreement is with your conclusion that Brexit should be aggressively challenged. And the reason for my disagreement is that you admitted yourself that both parties are for Brexit, both parties together represents a big majority. Basically your take seem to put more weight on the minority that is against Brexit over the majority that is for it or doesn't care about it which makes little sense.If the two main parties aren't on the same page then what are the substantive differences.
"We must leave the SM and CU and we are best place to negotiate a deal that'll retain the benefits of each and we will also solve the Irish border issue"
That is the position of both parties, isn't it? I dont think the country is on the same page. Those who are have representation, those who aren't (and there are many of us) have none. That's my frustration.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...dermined-britain-for-over-100-years-1.3486305Tweet
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Appears so - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/05/labour-peers-accuse-corbyn-brexit-cowardiceIs it true Labour peers have been told to abstain from a motion that would require continued EEA membership?
Spineless.Appears so - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/05/labour-peers-accuse-corbyn-brexit-cowardice
If it passes the Lords it'll require a vote in the Commons, which would be awkward for them, particularly if there were enough putative Tory rebels to pass it with their support.
The voters who are pro-brexit are maniacally for that position. We're seeing lifelong Labour voters voting torie for it, more will go over if Labour tried to overturn the referendum.I don't buy the whole 'political suicide' thing. I can get how, with the majority of their voters supporting Brexit/hard Brexit, it's politically very difficult for May to support anything else. I don't understand the logic that says that the leader of the party whose members support soft Brexit/ no Brexit has to support hard Brexit or else risk political disaster. Arguments that suggest as much seem to act as a smoke screen for a leader who wanted Brexit to begin with and is now trying to find ways of making excuses for his complete lack of opposition to it despite leading a party whose MPs/members/voters/natural political sympathisers being against it.
Half the country is remain and that includes 70% of Labour voters. Labour not representing them is despicable and a clear sign that Corbyn is representing his own desires not the desires of the majority of his party on Brexit. It’s cost him my vote in the next election.I haven't been clear, my disagreement is with your conclusion that Brexit should be aggressively challenged. And the reason for my disagreement is that you admitted yourself that both parties are for Brexit, both parties together represents a big majority. Basically your take seem to put more weight on the minority that is against Brexit over the majority that is for it or doesn't care about it which makes little sense.
I don't get why doesn't she just resign and gives those clowns the rope to hang themselves. Does she enjoy being at the heart of abuse from all sides with no long-term political prospectus personally?Cabinet in open warfare. I've never seen anything like it since I moved to this country.
Ministers publicly calling PM's position names.
Furthermore, parliament has the authority on any final decision.What is even more ridiculous is that the cabinet are basically fighting over two positions, both of which have been rejected by the EU.
There is and always has been only one solution, the custom's union.
Yes, but really there is only one decision, either let project fear become project reality or stay in the custom's union.Furthermore, parliament has the authority on any final decision.
The whole thing is a farce.
Excellent. Will have to wait and see how many Tory rebels will be willing to go along with it in the Commons.83 Labour peers and 17 Tories defy their party whip to vote for EEA amendment
Some 83 Labour peers - 44% of the total - defied the whip and voted for the Alli amendment.
There were also 17 Tory rebels.
I agree with your first sentence. It's quite staggering how the British have totally failed to listen to anyone in the EU since day one. I can only assume that as so many of our politicians, both Labour and Conservative, have taken up positions contrary to what they actually believe in, that they think Europeans don't mean what they say either.What is even more ridiculous is that the cabinet are basically fighting over two positions, both of which have been rejected by the EU.
There is and always has been only one solution, the custom's union.
It's almost as if they hope the whole thing will just go away.I agree with your first sentence. It's quite staggering how the British have totally failed to listen to anyone in the EU since day one. I can only assume that as so many of our politicians, both Labour and Conservative, have taken up positions contrary to what they actually believe in, that they think Europeans don't mean what they say either.