You're entitled to your opinion.
You're not entitled to your own facts because it is beyond dispute, as McClean has explained, that the poppy is seen in Catholics areas in Northern Ireland as a symbol of oppression
Poppies and remembrance at football matches
- Thread starter RW2
- Start date
You're not entitled to your own facts because it is beyond dispute, as McClean has explained, that the poppy is seen in Catholics areas in Northern Ireland as a symbol of oppression
Can you imagine what it's like being dragged from your home and away from loved ones at the prime of your youth, just so you can be maimed or killed in a pool of mud and blood for whatever reason?
It's for those people that homage is paid, not for politicians and war criminals.
We don't live in a world of rainbows and unicorns. War has been a part of how our society developed in the last 40.000 years or so. A lot of good people were involved and fought to defend their country and kin. Until we get rid of violence entirely, war will keep existing in one way or another. Our duty as mankind is to avoid it as long as possible, but unfortunately it remains as the last resort.
The poppy is a reminder of the toll that war takes, and not a celebration of war itself. Still, it does celebrate the sacrifice made by people who were actually fighting for the sake of good.
Would you like the Allies to cross their arms and wait for Hitler to conquer everything? They HAD to fight. Not every act of war is evil. Sometimes evil is what you stand against. Not to mention things are not usually black and white as they were in WW2, and not even WW2 was as black and white as we like to believe.
I reckon each person involved in football should have the choice to wear the poppy or not, but I also think not wearing it stems from a petty feeling or a wrong reading of the meaning of the whole thing.
It's for those people that homage is paid, not for politicians and war criminals.
We don't live in a world of rainbows and unicorns. War has been a part of how our society developed in the last 40.000 years or so. A lot of good people were involved and fought to defend their country and kin. Until we get rid of violence entirely, war will keep existing in one way or another. Our duty as mankind is to avoid it as long as possible, but unfortunately it remains as the last resort.
The poppy is a reminder of the toll that war takes, and not a celebration of war itself. Still, it does celebrate the sacrifice made by people who were actually fighting for the sake of good.
Would you like the Allies to cross their arms and wait for Hitler to conquer everything? They HAD to fight. Not every act of war is evil. Sometimes evil is what you stand against. Not to mention things are not usually black and white as they were in WW2, and not even WW2 was as black and white as we like to believe.
I reckon each person involved in football should have the choice to wear the poppy or not, but I also think not wearing it stems from a petty feeling or a wrong reading of the meaning of the whole thing.
Even when he clearly is not wrong
Or when he is.
Apologies, I misread.It seems you're struggling to read through the red mist. No one said he should sing God save the queen. Are you high?
I think I'm going to end this here. If you can't even construct your post around the contents of my own, there's little point us continuing.
Even then, why should he have to face a flag that isn’t his own. I don’t know how you can read the explanation he gave a few years back, and still call him a bellend for his beliefs. It’s out of order.
And as a comparable, how much support do you think that charity has given you men and women of NI? There's a good chance no war criminals are being supported by their donations.
I wasn't the one that wanted to make that comparable. I was just using the same logic.
Back on the roundabout again. Telling the likes of McClean and the community he comes from that his interpretation is 'petty' is the sort of patronising bullshit that is at the heart of the whole argument. The poppy means many things to many people. There's parts of your post that everyone on all sides of the argument would agree with. Your conclusion doesn't leave room for any other interpretation of what this whole remembrance means and that's bound to cause offence.
He doesn't even have to look at it though. He's done it to raise a reaction from the knuckle draggers.
I didn't mean to be patronising, nor that there should be only one interpretation of the whole event. And I defend the right of not wearing the poppy, I just don't agree with most of the things that are quoted as reasoning.
There's room for a number of interpretations, that's why I believe it would be healthier to focus in the one that unites people rather than the ones that divide them.
I understand where McClean comes from and I didn't mean to criticize him, but if you think about it, the people he mourns are also included in those remembered, the poppy means more than WW1 British soldiers.
But it's dangerous to open old wounds and what is meant to be a blanket tribute to fallen combatants can quickly become an argument around who killed who and why.
Still, I think my opinion could be better elaborated. It's food for thought and I might come back later to add something to it. Thanks.
Well put.
Just to be clear, I'm not from NI. But yes, I'd imagine the charity has done a lot of good for NI, does a lot of good generally and rarely helps people who don't generally deserve help. I'd also agree that there's a good chance no war criminals are being supported.
Nonetheless, the principle stands. If McClean supports a homeless shelter and an army veteran benefits, he can honestly claim he had no reasonable way of knowing that's where his funds would go. That doesn't remain true if McClean supports a charity specifically for army veterans that has no way of distinguishing between those who committed crimes and those who didn't.
Also worth remembering that it isn't just about those who committed crimes but also those who concealed those crimes or contributed to the culture that allowed them to happen. Essentially support for any veteran who served in NI would be problematic for someone like McClean as he would view the whole body with deep mistrust. Once you accept that's the case then his issue with the poppy is pretty straightforward, I think.
That is one of the dumbest things I've ever had the misfortune of reading. Embarrassing.
What do they get paid after completing their Phase 1 and 2 training?
Also when does their pension kick in?
Seems a bit early for a light dusting of snow
No one but you are saying he's a hypocrite for paying taxes to the government of the country he is from. Last i checked paying taxes isn't a choice is it? So what do you expect him to do?
Plus no one has any idea if James McClean attributes any of the blame for atrocities committed in Northern Ireland by the Army on the British governments past or present.
Yes i know mate i'm not saying that. My point is the guy made a choice to not wear one, it doesn't necessarily mean he wanted to make a statement in doing that. Others created all the drama around it.
No he didn't i agree but at the same time he didn't say anything disrespectful or make any gestures etc. Surely no one really cares what direction a guy faces when the British national anthem is being played?
I always say to myself i'll not comment and then get pulled in every year. It's silly thats its even an issue.I have to admit I do enjoy the arguments in these threads pretty much every year.
Well that's debatable.I didn't make that point originally, I was just using the same logic as another.
To me he's making a statement with the flag. It seems to make a difference to him which way he stands the way he does, and therefore it'll make a difference to others, too. I dunno, perhaps my view is skewed because I dislike him generally, but to me thats deliberate.
He may well be trying to make a statement mate i don't pretend to know for sure and i don't particularly like him either. But at the end of the day if it is some sort of protest it's a fairly mild form of protest. If he'd got down on his knees, covered his ears and sang La la la la at the top of his voice (i've seen one clown do this) i could understand someone taking issue with him but really no one should be bothered by him facing away. He's best ignored in general.
Haha yeah well thats true.
Last edited:
The people killed in McCleans home town and in other similar incidents in NI by the British army that lead to people choosing not to wear a poppy weren't combatants mate.
Of course people should wear the poppy, its disgustingly disrespectful to men like my grandad who fought for everybody FREEDOM
Here's a picture of him fighting off some germans
Do these brave men mean nothing to people ???
Here's a picture of him fighting off some germans
Do these brave men mean nothing to people ???
Personally I am happy to remember the sacrifice of people who died during the first and second world wars. If the number of Irish that fought in the first world war under different flags, say the American and Australian, were included in a "total Irish fought", the numbers would possibly exceed 150,000. The same is true for the second world war, although the numbers would be nowhere near 150,000. I would like to remember / honour their sacrifice.
Where I draw the line with the poppy is that the funds raised by the sale of poppies are used for British soldiers that fought in wars I don't agree with. So I wouldn't wear a poppy for that reason. If it were just WWI and WWII, I wouldn't have an issue.
Where I draw the line with the poppy is that the funds raised by the sale of poppies are used for British soldiers that fought in wars I don't agree with. So I wouldn't wear a poppy for that reason. If it were just WWI and WWII, I wouldn't have an issue.
Has nobody picked up on this? Who was this legend and what were the circumstances? Nike have surely missed our on a marketing opportunity here.
Ultimately, if not for these young men in two of the darkest periods of human history, none of us, McClean or the rest would be even discussing this. So I think these people are worthy of remembrance.
I think it should be about the World Wars only though. World war 1 is why it exists and World War 2 was a threat to every man and moman on earth.
At the same time, the whole point of these people giving their lives was for something better. If someone chooses not to engage, then that is perfectly fine. It shouldn't be an issue either way, this isn't the point.
Whether it's those attacking people for not wearing them because they are dishonouring the dead, or those who claim soloders are murderers.
I think it should be about the World Wars only though. World war 1 is why it exists and World War 2 was a threat to every man and moman on earth.
At the same time, the whole point of these people giving their lives was for something better. If someone chooses not to engage, then that is perfectly fine. It shouldn't be an issue either way, this isn't the point.
Whether it's those attacking people for not wearing them because they are dishonouring the dead, or those who claim soloders are murderers.
To be honest i don't know for certain if it was true i wasn't there but it was in the 90's at a youth game in Northern Ireland. I exaggerated with the singing bit but a good mate of mine said the guy did turn his back, kneel down and cover his ears.
I'm not from uk. What meant for you might not mean anything for me. And vice versa.
I could have been from german, or singapore, or india where british serviceman could mean a different story.
I'm not judging which cause is good and which isn't, but it differs from person to person.
Which to me only shows his strength of character. Football is filled with young lads with little to no concept of life outside of a millionaires lifestyle with little to no input or thought as to what goes on or has gone on in the real world. The fact that someone is willing to stick their neck out for what they believe in is to be admired IMO.
I am not sure if I would be so strong willed to be honest
100% agreed. I don’t remember this being a thing in 90s?? It’s like someone done it and now all the clubs feel like oh shit if we don’t do it we will be fecked.
The whole poppy thing is a massive PR boost for the UK armed forces. The Premier League getting involved with it makes them complicit in a propaganda campaign that will end up costing many young working class men their lives.
Ever since then, they have come to be a symbol of remembering not just those who gave their lives in World War One, but all those who have died on behalf of their count.
The money raised from these donations is used to help servicemen and women who are still alive, whose lives have been changed by wars that they fought in.
- above is why I personally would never wear a poppy and it shouldn’t be forced on players whatsoever.
If it was strictly a WW2 thing - I think everyone would get on board and even WW1 I could see why I would feel sorry for the soldiers who took part as they were assisting with the prevention of invasion.
However the poppy represents soldiers who have also fought in wars like Iraq and for that reason I wouldn’t wear it.
The money raised from these donations is used to help servicemen and women who are still alive, whose lives have been changed by wars that they fought in.
- above is why I personally would never wear a poppy and it shouldn’t be forced on players whatsoever.
If it was strictly a WW2 thing - I think everyone would get on board and even WW1 I could see why I would feel sorry for the soldiers who took part as they were assisting with the prevention of invasion.
However the poppy represents soldiers who have also fought in wars like Iraq and for that reason I wouldn’t wear it.
I'm fully with James McClean here, no way will I wear a poppy, a symbol of a military whose recent outputs have been based on illegal wars and killing innocent people on the streets of Derry, fully agree that if it was just for the world wars then it wouldn't be an issue.
Makes it easier to understand his choice. Thanks.
I knew it was only a matter of time until someone mentioned the Falklands war...
The British Government formally apologised over the massacre in Derry on Bloody Sunday. There is no ambiguity, the British army killed innocent people in McLean's home town. If McLean did wear a poppy it would be odder than choosing not too under those circumstances.
Nice to see some people backing Mclean
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Gotcha
Seems like a lifetime ago. I remember the Private Eye parody of the Sun. They did a "Kill an Argie, Win a Metro" contest. The story was that Kelvin Mackenzie saw it and said he wished he'd thought of it.Gotcha
Massive PR boost? No it's not! The Poppy Appeal is run every year by the Royal British Legion, a charity that relies on donations to help members of the Armed Forces with a vast array of things.
It was originally intended as a memorial to those that fought and died on the battlefields of WW1 and later WW2. It has since become a symbol of memorial and remembrance to those that have fought and died in more recent conflicts including the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan (where I have also served and lost friends)
The RBL have been around for decades and anyone that has served even 1 day in the Armed Forces automatically becomes a member.
The RBL used to get a lot more in donations but charities like Help For Heroes now take a huge market share of the donations that people are willing to give so they promote themselves more in order to fundraise more. They are from my experience the best Armed Forces charity out there and do nothing but provide help and support for people that have been directly affected in service of this country.
I wear a poopy with pride on my uniform every year and lots of others do too. If someone doesn't want to wear one, I don't care really. Thats their choice and they're entitled to not wear it. People died in the World Wars to allow us to all have that choice so I don't understand anyone that finds it offensive if someone isn't wearing one.
B-but... Oppression... Propaganda?
We mock sun worshipers from the past, yet people in the present are getting worked up about a flower. So much for progress.
But there are many rememberance service events up and down the country at this time of year. Why does it have to be brought into football? Why cant people who want to pay their respects do it at one of these many rememberance day events? And those who dont/cant be arsed/ or actively dislike the rememberance events simply dont go to those events.
The reality is at a football match in a stadium of 50,000 people you will get a mix of all of those sentiments.
There is ample opportunity away from a football stadium to pay respects.
As others have said this didnt seem to happen in the 90s. Now that it hads gradually crept in over the years there is now a kind of hysteria around it and a frenzy of feeling that simply didnt exist a decade or two ago.
Last edited: