Are we claiming that the general public know anything?
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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I just don't think anyone can be arsed about Brexit anymore. It's got boring and people just want it gone.
80k is not fantastical at all. It is not uncommon for a person running a business with 50 people in it to be on 6 figures these days. And it is not just bosses either. I have a skilled workforce and there are at least 5 shopfloor engineers in the business who (with overtime) earn £65k+ every year. One guy regularly earns £75k.
The high tax threshold starts at £46k so with NI I take home less than half of what I earn.
For people who earn over 100k it is worse. because for every £2 over that earned you lose £1 off your tax free allowance. At the moment that is about £11.5k. So if your earnings get to £123k you have lost all the tax-free allowance meaning that you start paying tax at 20% from zero and the 40% band kicks in around £35k. My benefits in kind - i.e car, fuel and health cover take me to that threshold so that is why I clear less than 50% of what I earn. If that situation worsened then I there is not doubt in my mind that this would have an effect on business creation. You'd get CEO's retraining to be self-employed plumbers because they'd be better off with none of the responsibility. How does that help jobs?
You are right this is still more than a lot of people. But you should look into post war tax rates. Take 1975/76 when I first started. There was hardly any tax free allowance and the rate started at 33%. High earners were really targeted paying up to 90%. We had a lot of nationalised industries with unions who were used to having their pay demands met. These pay demands were met by the UK tax payer. Which in turn meant the probability of taxes reducing was almost zero. The country's public services were actually crap and in no way reflected that tax take. Loads of wealthy folk left the country and although I don't have data to hand I would wager that the rate of new business creation was nowhere near what it was in the late 80's when taxes became more business friendly.
The thing to bear in mind is that in order for the government to run those public services (such as they were) required the burden to be shared by the general populace i.e 33% in the £. The tax burden is similar now but it is not taken at source as it was then and much is put into VAT and other things.
This is why Labour are lying about their spending plans. To get anywhere near funding them they would have to take it from the whole of the workforce and not just the high paid and businesses. That is to say nothing of the borrowing.
And one more thing. You obviously think that I am some high-flying elitist rather than the work-a-day boss I am, along with thousand of others in this country. Most of whom are doing their level best to keep their businesses afloat and, if they are like me, it's not all for selfish reasons. Some, you may be surprised to learn, actually care quite deeply about their employees. But if you want to characterise us all has Victorian work-house bourgeois chucking 9 year old boys into machinery for no wages, then that is your prerogative.
You presumably are on this site because you support United. I would venture that you should look in the direction of players that earn 300k a week and clubs that can spend £200m on a kid that happens to be good at kicking a ball around.
You're wasting your time John, these people just don't understand these things.
I'm sure your a perfectly nice person(Although you do seem to like the tories so.....) but the system your part of is far worse than the victorian work houses.
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80k is pretty modest for someone running a 50 person business IMO
Feck that. All the best to you, the country needs more people like you. Why should someone who shows a bit of initiative, and is doing well for himself have a huge whack taken out of his hard earned cash for the government to waste? Pay your fair share surely but punishing business owners is not the right way to grow the economy. Too many businesses are just working for the government and not earning money.
I know. There's a lot of hatred on here towards anyone who supports aspiration, freedom of choice and may have had some success.
I'm sick of people trying to make me feel like I'm supposed to be ashamed about that.
We're all part of that system. Also, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Are we claiming that Tory MPs know anything about the general public?
We are but some of us actually want to change the system into a better one.
Have you any historical models in mind, or is the system you have in mind something more novel?
The people get the government they deserve.
Corbyn. PM of the Peoples Republic of London.
There has plenty of better systems just in capitalism that have been better for the whole of British society(I mean christ New Labour who I hate had a more human system than todays tory party). What the Labour Party is offering today(Which John seems so angry about)is hardly revolutionary, I'm not asking John to given all power to the workers(Although that would be great)just that he pays some more in tax.
In fairness it was only 40% of the people and even then they needed the help from some homophobes in the North of Ireland.
I think the UK is the only country that can have a party that has imposed 8 years of austerity, polling in first place. It's fecking depressing. Look at the debates around brexit for the past two years?
We are a stupid country...stupid.
We are a stupid country...stupid.
Look at this gem.
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Say that to the 50 people who are all making a living off the back of John's hard work, risk and entrepreneurship.
We have a press that carries water for the government, and have been villainising the EU since we joined, ans well as a public that are infantilised, and lack personal responsibility and critical thinking skills.
As shit as it sounds, the public have been groomed for manipulation and have been sold a con.
Are we claiming anyone knows anything about anything?
I don't get your point. I'm sure that you know a lot about your field, politicians have staffs that are specialized in all fields, they have the benefit of being briefed and informed if they need to. These people have no excuse to not do their job properly which is to take informed decisions.
We've reached the point in history where we're taking ethics lessons from Communists. The people supporting a system that impoverished every nation it was adopted in, without fail. Oh the irony.
Say that to the 50 people who are all making a living off the back of John's hard work, risk and entrepreneurship.
If you earn £123k shouldn't you be taking home about £75k or 61% - shedding about £42k in tax and 6k in NI contributions? The marginal tax on income between £100k and £123k is greater than 50%, but not overall.
Oh god please tell me you didn't go through all the trouble of reading those awful Ayn Rand books to come with this conclusion.
Making informed decisions is political suicide in brexit politics, even if they know the facts it is more expedient to state what people want to hear unless you have to stand by it. Look at what the response to Theresa May trying to bring reality to the idea of leaving the EU this week.
After 2 years she has accepted the pragmatic reality of leaving, but she is being teed off on by cretins who have no sense of responsibility over the decision. If the UK leaves the EU with no deal, people could actually die, but instead of accepting that it was the no deal brexit that caused it they will parade around like a fecking pigeon saying that they would have got a better deal or would have reduced tariffs to 0% or whatever bullshit talking point to deflect from their own responsibility..
New Labour did quite well in the early days because they were centrist and business friendly. To win power they needed to move that way. In so doing they lost touch with the traditional Labour base. With Corbyn there has been something of a resurgence. All the good that New Labour did was undone by Blair with Iraq and Brown with the crash and subsequent deficit. Now centrists in the labour ranks are consigned the back benches in fear of de-selection. I think the best of the Labour politicians are among those.
Whereas Labours current policies are popular and very honourable in many ways, they very are nanny and they ultimately ignore one important factor, as left wing regimes have done from time immemorial. Human nature, which for the most part is aspirational. Such regimes often need to resort to strict (bordering on brutal) measures to keep the people who put their heads over the parapet in line. Governments become more controlling and before you know it unremovable. Then the regime itself becomes more elitist and bourgeois than the bourgeoisie they ousted to get into power in the first place.
Momentum are doing a very good impression of laying the foundations for that.
Come on, you can't make a statement as extreme as this and then go all moderate about it here:
So what's the ideal system that you're working towards? Do you have a particular model society that you base it on?
Agree with this.
There really is no other way to put this but - this is batshit bollocks of the highest order. You sound like your talking about some 20th century communist regime and not the actual reality that is the todays Labour Party is offering basic social democratic policies. I would somewhat understand your position if there was even a hint of truth to want you are saying but what you are describing is in another reality. So I guessing there's not a lot I can say that will change your mind but honestly just do some research on labour policies(I can even give you some links if you want).[/QUOTE]
The 123k is total earnings including BIK's. I take home exactly 4k a month. But i have a fully expensed company car which obviously has a monetary value. It is a deisel though and on on top of the 29% x Purchase price BIK there is a 4% deisel surcharge making 33%. This makes the car benefit 13k for which I pay an additional 5k+ tax and they hit the fuel too. I took the car on contract hire in May 2016 before diesel became the fuel of the devil. I am looking to move to a petrol hybrid next May to try and alleviate things.
Exactly, impoverishing people is the hallmark of a failed system.
When we start having soup kitchens or food banks feeding thousands upon thousands of people in this country, we'll know we have problems.
It's not for me to write the recipes for the cook-shops of the future
The short term - Radical social democracy such as the Preston Model and Labour alternative models of ownership
https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/preston-model-modern-politics-municipal-socialism/
The long term - To put it simply a new form of Communism.
I'm in Preston and I can tell you that 99% of the population here have never heard of the 'Preston Model', I mean literally they are completely unaware of it's existence. Maybe that's part of the plan, who knows.It's not for me to write the recipes for the cook-shops of the future
The short term - Radical social democracy such as the Preston Model and Labour alternative models of ownership
https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/preston-model-modern-politics-municipal-socialism/
The long term - To put it simply a new form of Communism.
Thanks. Speaking as someone with no particularly strong views on favoured economic models, I find the moral certitude expressed by you and your ideological fellow-travellers on these issues here a bit fascinating and arrogant in some cases, especially given the historical record of the old (?) forms of Communism.
Communism may be on a massive losing streak, but it's bound to work sooner or later.
Probably a golden number of people to slaughter and it just hasn't quite been found yet.
Probably a golden number of people to slaughter and it just hasn't quite been found yet.
Modern communism... Erm
Employing teams of corbynistas to photoshop Blair from history rather than airbrushing Trotsky from photos?
A carbon fibre icepick?
Well that all sounds quite the bummer and it seems you've hit the sweet spot for getting a taxman tonking but I'm still a bit confused. This is obviously off topic, but this seems like you're paying 20% on <£35k, 40% on >£35k and 33% on benefits in kind and then some NI. None of these sound like they're greater than 50%.
What is the matter with you?