peaceful protest
China bullies Hong Kong
- Thread starter Cal?
- Start date
peaceful protest
I know it sounds funny to westerners, but imo the underlying issue is much deeper. It's in my view racial and frustration.
The HK property is one of the most expensive piece of land in the world and many original HK people can't afford to buy house then, and will probably never be able to afford one now.
Imagine living in that condition, while your neighboring Shenzhen has abundant land where average Joe can have a nice 2 storey house that's actually worth living. Imagine your neighboring city has more jobs opportunity, the only catch is just you have to swallow your pride and just go there and work (or start a small business). Problem is the HK hates, like really hates the Mainlanders. They invade HK with cash, buying all the luxury goods inflating the prices while at the same time marginalize the HK people. It's actually good for Business as the mainlanders are actually loaded with trucks of cash. The mainlanders also are socially different than HK, they pee/shit/spit as they like (although this goes better with times) hence the HK tends to be very rude with them (while at the same time wants their cash).
All these are pent up frustrations, among the youth that has no future, no jobs, no hope of buying a house, little chance of getting married because the HK girls are quite demanding, living in a harsh economical concrete Jungle, it builts and eats up their soul, blaming the Chinese for everything that happens as if it's their creation. The already harsh life becomes harder for everyone else that just want to get on with their life, as if all those political movements are going to change their situations.
Note : The above appartment (if you can call it that) isn't cheap by any country standard, you can buy a nice proper house with that kind of more than 1/2 of the world. So they're not poor people, they're working blue / white collar HK people.
EDIT : For what it's worth, I'm an Indonesian Chinese, my grandfather comes from Guangdong province (which is the province of HK not too long ago), I speak Cantonese although not as a first languge. Attended University in Australia. Been to HK dozens of times, have an EX who's a real born and bred HK girl, have relatives in HK, have relatives in China as well. So I see both sides of the story, and as an outsider I have no bias.
What irks me is Post like "Genocidal Oppressive Dictatorship" from someone who's probably never even set foot in China or Hong Kong.
A slightly furnished Micro Apartment that's worth USD 300k
The HK property is one of the most expensive piece of land in the world and many original HK people can't afford to buy house then, and will probably never be able to afford one now.
Imagine living in that condition, while your neighboring Shenzhen has abundant land where average Joe can have a nice 2 storey house that's actually worth living. Imagine your neighboring city has more jobs opportunity, the only catch is just you have to swallow your pride and just go there and work (or start a small business). Problem is the HK hates, like really hates the Mainlanders. They invade HK with cash, buying all the luxury goods inflating the prices while at the same time marginalize the HK people. It's actually good for Business as the mainlanders are actually loaded with trucks of cash. The mainlanders also are socially different than HK, they pee/shit/spit as they like (although this goes better with times) hence the HK tends to be very rude with them (while at the same time wants their cash).
All these are pent up frustrations, among the youth that has no future, no jobs, no hope of buying a house, little chance of getting married because the HK girls are quite demanding, living in a harsh economical concrete Jungle, it builts and eats up their soul, blaming the Chinese for everything that happens as if it's their creation. The already harsh life becomes harder for everyone else that just want to get on with their life, as if all those political movements are going to change their situations.
Note : The above appartment (if you can call it that) isn't cheap by any country standard, you can buy a nice proper house with that kind of more than 1/2 of the world. So they're not poor people, they're working blue / white collar HK people.
EDIT : For what it's worth, I'm an Indonesian Chinese, my grandfather comes from Guangdong province (which is the province of HK not too long ago), I speak Cantonese although not as a first languge. Attended University in Australia. Been to HK dozens of times, have an EX who's a real born and bred HK girl, have relatives in HK, have relatives in China as well. So I see both sides of the story, and as an outsider I have no bias.
What irks me is Post like "Genocidal Oppressive Dictatorship" from someone who's probably never even set foot in China or Hong Kong.
A slightly furnished Micro Apartment that's worth USD 300k
https://www.scmp.com/business/artic...imillion-dollar-shoebox-homes-over-quickly-it
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I do not go there as a tourist but for work so I know what is going on there. Obviously I have many friends on both sides of the fence. Most of the rioting is not supported by them as most of them know it is the economy that is most important and that China will never give up Hong Kong independence but the young feels that they are better than the Chinese from mainland China and some of them feel that they are British.
Sky1981, this is what I have been telling people here. I go there very often and this is the pent up frustration as you have mentioned. To be honest this is the rudest place I have even been to. I have never seen anywhere this rudeness. Not even in mainland China. Funny you mentioned about the way they behave. I was in Shanghai and the people from Shanghai were complaining about a group of Chinese people who have come from somewhere else.
HK is on its way down. Eventually China is going to ease up on the visas and then Schenzhen is going to be the place. Unless they sort out the housing HK will never get over this.
Incidentally I feel more direct Chinese involvement is the only solution as the LegCo is absolutely useless. They need to use more land space for public housing instead of these parks etc. But the tycoons do not want that as they want to keep the housing costs very high.
HK is on its way down. Eventually China is going to ease up on the visas and then Schenzhen is going to be the place. Unless they sort out the housing HK will never get over this.
Incidentally I feel more direct Chinese involvement is the only solution as the LegCo is absolutely useless. They need to use more land space for public housing instead of these parks etc. But the tycoons do not want that as they want to keep the housing costs very high.
Actually In my opinion the Chinese is one of the best welfare developing government. The amount of infrastructure they build surrounding HK is astonishing, soon the GZ Shenzhen HK triangle is complete. Most of the smart HK are taking advantage of their 10 years ahead of time know how in 1997 and make a killing in China, the integration should actually be viewed as a golden opportunity for HK citizen instead of some kind of shackle. The only thing stopping them is their own pride and personal dissatisfaction and frustration.
If they sold their coffin apartment in HK they can buy a Business + house in some parts of China, all that while still maintaining HK passport and all her privilege.
Hence I really don't know what they're fighting for. Democracy / freedom? I really don't think it matters honestly. Democracy and freedom matters in countries where dictators kidnaps/torture/neglects/corrupt/restrict/exploit his citizen. Not in a country like China where the healthcare, pension, living standard, freedom of religion (falun gong isn't a religion), freedom of speech (as long as you don't criticize the government), full government support in Business. All they ask is you live well and leave politics alone.
Instead of embracing their long lost Brothers whose actually pretty excited to be reunited and have good plans for them, they fought and long to be colonialized. Ironically citing democracy and freedom. Did you know that as bad as you think China is, HK have election now, something they never had under the UK.
This is perhaps the most absurd post I've ever read on this forum. You have freedom of speech, just as long as you don't criticise the government? Who do you think is the thing you are being free from when you are expressing your freedom of speech? You have freedom of religion, apart from all those Muslims in the 're-education' camps. Don't get me started on the 'living standards' of the average Chinese person. Christ.
That depends on which TV station you tune in to
On Ughyur, many nations have sent delegations to inspect China and found nothing wrong there, the people are happy, and the reeducation camp is aimed at deradicalizing terrorist, the fact that those camp exists means they're not simply killing them in the first place.
I doubt you'd ever been to China if you think the living standard is much worse in China than the western world.
Perhaps we can hear from the Uyghurs or Tibetans about their treatment in China. Do they have freedom of religion?
This is also a western propaganda, the tibetans are thankful that the chinese are now there to build their place, the development they're enjoying is tremendous. And yes, tibetan monks still can embrace their religion without being jailed
Remember Iran/Syria, those lies fabricated by the US.
I have been to China, twice. The first time I was flanked by the secret police the whole time and saw some guy getting beaten horribly by them for overcharging a tourist at the Great Wall. I don't know how rich or poor the average Chinese person is (well I know that the GDP per capita is still pretty poor by Western standards) but it looks like you are defending the trading off of freedoms for comparatively shitty public services.
I don't believe the media 100% and there's always cover ups and propaganda from all sides, but I honestly don't think China is that bad, far from the monster portrayed in Western Media.
EDIT: not every nation is ready for democracy, India has thousands of tribes, China has 1.4 billion people, Indonesia has thousands of Islands 5 Religion and countless tribes of different culture. Considering the level of education in some nations it's best that they are left with little choice as possible as evil and undemocratic it may sounds.
I've never mentioned democracy - there's loads of countries which are repressive, horrible shit holes and democratic. Freedom in far more important that democracy - it just so happens that it's far easier to have your freedoms in a democracy.
It's difficult to hear anything accurate from them when the western media seems to have a clear and obvious agenda. Reading about the conversation here turning to the uyghurs reminded me of the terrorist attacks that happened a few years ago. I saw some video clips of it online, reported by the local chinese media, of actual footage of them running around with machetes and attacking the citizens. When I googled "uyghur terrorism", for some reason I dont see any BBC, Guardian or any major media covering those incidents, only speaking about how China are rounding up and randomly detaining muslims. Only one website 'trumancenter' seem to cover the actual terrorism over there.
You don't have to believe the BBC, there's actual Uyghurs that you can listen to who have managed to escape to other countries talking about it .
The reason you don't see any coverage of the incident you mention seems to be down to a lack of personal effort.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-26402367
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28305109
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-29170238
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/china-mass-stabbings-yunnan-kunming-rail-station
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/china-knife-attack-police-capture-suspects-kunming
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/kunming-knife-attack-muslim-separatists-xinjiang-china
Like I keep saying, more than anything they simply want to keep things as they are. They dont want the ever increasing mainland influence. Everything else plays second fiddle.
For all it's problems, the vast majority in HK have it a lot better than they do over in China and they know it. Almost nobody in HK looks at the mainland and wishes they were more like them. Everything about the HK standard of living is much better than it is even just over the border in Shenzhen. It's better than many places in Europe ffs.
Hk standard of living is better than europe?
Ok. Let's just end it here. Maybe one day you'll have the chance to see it yourself
There's actual refugee all over the world claiming uk and us bombed them.
Isnt it not long ago some of you wanted a radicalization for shamima the isis chick? What do you call that?
Nice whataboutarry
Are you trying to say the Chinese are justified just because the US bombed the middle east? How old are you?
And they're right.
I don't quite know where you're going with this. Are you suggesting that a reasonable response to folk joining isis is to incarcerate and reeducate the greater portion of the UK Muslim population?
Where I'm going. It's simple. The media in the west lies about many things. Fabricating a well concerted agenda on china. Many of us who lives there and been there many times have told you westerner to open your eyes and actually see the bigger picture.
Now if you dont believe me, that's normal. But dig deeper beyond the western media and see for yourselves.
The west especially the us has a proven track record in creating lies starting from vietnam all the way to syria, it's really not beyond impossible that they lie this time.
So what are your ties to HK? I hope its better than the last guy who goes there every now and then on business and thinks he knows all about it.
I already said on my side, I have lived there for 7 of the last 8 years. I'd say that makes me pretty well qualified to comment. Medical services, transport infrastructure, telecoms, sports and community facilities are all as good as anything i have seen in Europe. Average incomes are higher than most of Europe, as is life expectancy and education levels. For convenience of many things I'd say only the UK rivals it in Europe, and probably only London really. There are issues, as there are anywhere, but HK is a brilliant place to live and infinitely better than China.
You seem to hate the place, that's fine, but don't lie about it.
If you say so
That might have been your point in earlier posts but pointing out that Shamima Begum was radicalised (did you mean people were calling for her readucation or what?) or that the US and UK bomb people doesn't further that particular agenda in any way. What you were pointing to wasn't about lies and fabrication, but about hypocrisy.
Basically when the US and UK bomb places it's fine and dandy, but when China builds big internment camps to sort out its own problems then that's not on.
Neither is on.
Both isnt on. Two wrongs doesnt make one right. But only if they're telling it right.
There's 2 different reports contradicting one another. They can both be wrong, but they cant both be right. Who's right and who's wrong is the issue.
If the western media report are indeed correct then yes china is wrong, but are they?
If anyone thinks the life in HK is better than in most western europe has been living in Cuckoo land. Yes the train system, the business buildings, and there is a lot of nice roads and infrastructure that is extremely good in Hong Kong. The Train service is top class. But the cost of the other services are ridiculous.
As for freedom, I see no difference in HK and Singapore. Actually HK has a lot more freedom than Singapore. These rioters are rioting and damaging infrastructure. Do that one in Singapore and you are jailed. Singapore has no democratic freedom as you see in the west. Leave politics alone and you can do what you want to do. The main difference is that in Singapore you do not have those tycoons dictating what happens and unlike HK( China SAR) is a very US friendly country.
Are there problems? Of course there is a lot of problems in HK but it has got nothing to do with politics as per se. The only way the housing problem in HK can be solved ifs if the Chinese force the HK legCo to allocate more land for public housing.
It is utterly stupid to even think that this extradition treaty is really pushed and needed by China. Who is going to stop Chinese Government to abduct someone from HK if they really want and to take him or her to mainland China? HK is connected to mainland China anyway. HK is a part of China and who will fight the chinese government if they do this?
No this is a lot more than the extradition treaty issue which is dead according to the LegCo anyway.
As for freedom, I see no difference in HK and Singapore. Actually HK has a lot more freedom than Singapore. These rioters are rioting and damaging infrastructure. Do that one in Singapore and you are jailed. Singapore has no democratic freedom as you see in the west. Leave politics alone and you can do what you want to do. The main difference is that in Singapore you do not have those tycoons dictating what happens and unlike HK( China SAR) is a very US friendly country.
Are there problems? Of course there is a lot of problems in HK but it has got nothing to do with politics as per se. The only way the housing problem in HK can be solved ifs if the Chinese force the HK legCo to allocate more land for public housing.
It is utterly stupid to even think that this extradition treaty is really pushed and needed by China. Who is going to stop Chinese Government to abduct someone from HK if they really want and to take him or her to mainland China? HK is connected to mainland China anyway. HK is a part of China and who will fight the chinese government if they do this?
No this is a lot more than the extradition treaty issue which is dead according to the LegCo anyway.
Forgive me if there’s a thread but I couldn’t see it.
Crazy what’s happening there. And no real end in sight.
Anyone close to it? I only know the high level about the extradition bill.
Crazy what’s happening there. And no real end in sight.
Anyone close to it? I only know the high level about the extradition bill.
Perhaps you'd take the time to look at what the HK Bar Association made of the Extradition Bill before mouthing off:
https://www.hkba.org/sites/default/...ters Legislation (Amendment) Bill 2019_0.pdf
The key point is that HK courts are NOT allowed to examine evidence provided by mainland authorities.
The LegCo gets everything passed as China wants when it suits them. It's ridiculous to blame the opposition as any bill the government proposes only needs 50%+1 of the votes and they control 40+ out of 70.
Shenzhen's GDP is above HK, but do check their population if you want to claim they have taken over.
How many of the protesters are asking for independence?
Again, very very few are asking for independence, the young feel they are DIFFERENT from mainlanders, and they very much are.
Of course they are rioting. Try that in England and see what happens if you try to block Heathrow or JFK in New York. You also have not quoted the amendments to the said bill which was done after the protests by the lawyers. Anyway the bill is dead officially as per the announcement of the CE so why are the people still rioting and not only damaging property but also stopping anyone leaving HK and closing down the airport and creating all this violence?
There are many people in many countries that are different from the original people too so what? As for one person one vote, yes it should be the way in every country but where exactly do you get when one person one vote and the person who wins the most vote gets to be the ruler? Certainly not in the UK, Australia, Canada and neither in the USA.
There are many people in many countries that are different from the original people too so what? As for one person one vote, yes it should be the way in every country but where exactly do you get when one person one vote and the person who wins the most vote gets to be the ruler? Certainly not in the UK, Australia, Canada and neither in the USA.
Climate change protestors did block access to Heathrow either last year or a few years back. They were certainly not called rioters.
Because the CE is not responding to their demands at all. How dare the citizens ask for an independent commission to investigate police brutality in the last 2 months?
There are many people different from others in many countries, how many countries force the extinction of their language, culture upon those different people?
Does the US try to stop Hispanic people from speaking Spanish?
As for universal suffrage, I don’t think you’re stupid enough to confuse the political system in the likes of the UK/US etc to the lack of any voting in HK, so my conclusion is you’re just trolling
The Chines are not stopping the people of Hong Kong speak Cantonese. Basic Law Article 9: In addition to the Chinese language, English may also be used as an official language by the executive authorities, legislature and judiciary of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.
Do you know that both Cantonese and Mandarin are both Chinese languages.
As for the universal franchise yes they have their own way of doing things. Just like the UK and the USA. It is the NPC that elects the President and if you go down the line the NPC is elected by the regional assemblies and local assemblies and hence it starts from the ordinary citizen with one person one vote. China is a meritocracy and the NPC does have the power to remove the President and also have done so in the past. Every government is the same. They never listen to the people. They simply do what they want to do. Or else there would have been no Iraq war.
Do you know that both Cantonese and Mandarin are both Chinese languages.
As for the universal franchise yes they have their own way of doing things. Just like the UK and the USA. It is the NPC that elects the President and if you go down the line the NPC is elected by the regional assemblies and local assemblies and hence it starts from the ordinary citizen with one person one vote. China is a meritocracy and the NPC does have the power to remove the President and also have done so in the past. Every government is the same. They never listen to the people. They simply do what they want to do. Or else there would have been no Iraq war.
Why would that be funny to westerners!I know it sounds funny to westerners, but imo the underlying issue is much deeper. It's in my view racial and frustration.
The HK property is one of the most expensive piece of land in the world and many original HK people can't afford to buy house then, and will probably never be able to afford one now.
Imagine living in that condition, while your neighboring Shenzhen has abundant land where average Joe can have a nice 2 storey house that's actually worth living. Imagine your neighboring city has more jobs opportunity, the only catch is just you have to swallow your pride and just go there and work (or start a small business). Problem is the HK hates, like really hates the Mainlanders. They invade HK with cash, buying all the luxury goods inflating the prices while at the same time marginalize the HK people. It's actually good for Business as the mainlanders are actually loaded with trucks of cash. The mainlanders also are socially different than HK, they pee/shit/spit as they like (although this goes better with times) hence the HK tends to be very rude with them (while at the same time wants their cash).
All these are pent up frustrations, among the youth that has no future, no jobs, no hope of buying a house, little chance of getting married because the HK girls are quite demanding, living in a harsh economical concrete Jungle, it builts and eats up their soul, blaming the Chinese for everything that happens as if it's their creation. The already harsh life becomes harder for everyone else that just want to get on with their life, as if all those political movements are going to change their situations.
Note : The above appartment (if you can call it that) isn't cheap by any country standard, you can buy a nice proper house with that kind of more than 1/2 of the world. So they're not poor people, they're working blue / white collar HK people.
EDIT : For what it's worth, I'm an Indonesian Chinese, my grandfather comes from Guangdong province (which is the province of HK not too long ago), I speak Cantonese although not as a first languge. Attended University in Australia. Been to HK dozens of times, have an EX who's a real born and bred HK girl, have relatives in HK, have relatives in China as well. So I see both sides of the story, and as an outsider I have no bias.
What irks me is Post like "Genocidal Oppressive Dictatorship" from someone who's probably never even set foot in China or Hong Kong.
A slightly furnished Micro Apartment that's worth USD 300k
https://www.scmp.com/business/artic...imillion-dollar-shoebox-homes-over-quickly-it
We're going through the same problems - albeit less-so
Even the Chinese don't believe they have any say over who rules them. Where are you from?
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In case there was any doubt whose side Trump would take. Always the autocrats.
This is just straight out of CCP propaganda, where are you from?
Who was removed?
Also, Xi basically declared himself emperor for life.Those rioters should be ashamed of themselves, they're acting like they're some kind of Young and Dangerous guys.
Here they are torturing a Chinese Tourist that has nothing to do with anything for hours, beating him up as he curls on the floor.
Peaceful my arse.
Here they are torturing a Chinese Tourist that has nothing to do with anything for hours, beating him up as he curls on the floor.
Peaceful my arse.
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I have heard this line of argument many many times and it baffles me every time. This is about a country which still 'gives freedom' for people to have 2 children. I have to ask, is there a point after living for a while in functioning democracies that this opinion flips?
Also how does that bolded part make sense? Really curious, what is the rationale behind that thought process?