Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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4bars

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noodlehair said:
Sorry to pick on this post as an example, but people need to stop saying things like this and look at the logic and the facts behind what is happening, rather than trying to downplay every warning sign that smacks us in the face.

The reason the economy has taken a hit, and the reason the pound takes a hit every time the phrase "no deal" is uttered, is because it is quite obvious that it would be a very harmful and damaging thing to do.

The potential negative impacts of no deal brexit are very clear, where as the positive ones are based on at best guess work and hope, and actually in most cases, lies.

Boris lies willingly about Brexit, and it is brushed off as him playing the game to gather support for himself, which apparently means it is nothing to worry about, but this ignores the very obvious and simple truth...that if someone has to LIE to you to convince you something is the right thing to do, it's because it isn't the right thing to do. People have become so wrapped up in needing Brexit to happen, they are willing to just lie and make stuff up to do so. Ignoring the damage it will do.

Let me give you some information. Since pretty much the day it became clear Boris would be PM, we have stopped receiving building applications at work. No one wants to build anything. We have gone from dealing with roughly 70 different new construction projects a month, to maybe half that. The commercial side of construction in our area has died completely. This is because no deal means no certainty over being able to afford materials, Labour, machinery, etc. No certainty over what you build having any value once it is complete. This is due to knock on effects elsewhere, and also has a big knock on effect to things like house sales, retail etc. Because eveyone is stuck with nowhere to move. This is why we are suddenly in danger of being in recession, and we WILL be in recession in 3 months time unless Boris and co change course. It is unavoidable at present. It is astonishing the lengths of self harm the brexit brigade are going to in order to avoid admitting what is happening. If the issues continue to be ignored this has the potential to affect anyone who's job or livelyhood is reliant on the economy, which is basically all of us.

My girlfriend who requires permanent medication, has been told by her GP and her pharmacy that she will likely find it difficult to get the correct medication in the case of a no deal, and to be prepared for such a scenario. This is because it is simply not possible to "stockpile" every medicine the everyone needs, and even if it were, it wouldn't be possible to stockpile enough of it to not potentially cause delays to supply. Even if deals are in place to maintain supply, which you would hope is likely, no deal causes other complications in getting it to where it needs to go. My girlfriend is fortunate that she has alternative medication choices, but they have side effects. Other people's quality of life would potentially be more severely effected. It may turn out to only cause minor problems. This could also be a nationwide disaster.

Stuff like this is played off as "scare mongering" but it is the reality of looking at the logical possibilities of an incompetent government being in charge of a no deal Brexit...something which even the most competent official would struggle to explain any benefit of. It is a bad idea unless we know exactly what we are doing, and we don't. We don't even know what we need to stockpile.

People NEED to start looking at this honestly, so that in the very least the government is force to deal with it responsibly. Otherwise they simply aren't going to. They have put the most irresponsible official they have in charge. The kind of person who would tell you cancer doesn't exist in order to sell you a packet of cigarettes, or who would push you out of a plane to prove gravity doesn't exist. Just because he is lying and actually knows gravity is real, doesn't mean you aren't going to die when he pushes you out.

When the reality is grim it's really important to do something about it rather than just pretend it isn't.

I'm starting to really worry about it because I don't see any sign of anyone being sensible or responaible about what is going on. It's like everyone is waiting for the bus to hit them before trying to move out of the way.
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Well, take the post under context, basically the context on all my intervention on this thread and it might have sense, but even so, it doesn't. I stand on what I said. Brexit is a factor on what is happening on the Brittish economy currently, and will be much worse if there is no deal. But the international economy is slowing down, is a fact and is affecting most of the big economies that they don't have a Brexit. So, the slow down on the Brittish economy, is PARTIALLY on that. Without Brexit, UK economy would not be soaring and would slow down also (not as much)
 

Kentonio

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SteveJ

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I guess that 'exclusive' is to be taken literally.
 

Ultimate Grib

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Kentonio said:
‘Our exclusive poll of over 65’s from the Home Counties who won at least one Range Rover has revealed...’
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Not many of them support Brexit, it's the ones that shit themselves while waiting for the bus that are huge supporters, this is why its so nonsensical.
 

RedChip

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dogrob said:
Can´t the UK simply go now with no deal, get it over with as I am slowly getting fed up of being in limbo not knowing what the hell is happening.
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The limbo won't end by simply walking out without a deal. UK will still need to get back to the negotiating table; only this time UK will be a 'third country', i.e. an outsider with much less leverage. Best analogy I have heard about this:

Right now, UK is like a husband and wife arguing inside the house. After no deal Brexit: still the same arguments, only then the husband will be outside the house, shouting through the door.
 

dogrob

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RedChip said:
The limbo won't end by simply walking out without a deal. UK will still need to get back to the negotiating table; only this time UK will be a 'third country', i.e. an outsider with much less leverage. Best analogy I have heard about this:

Right now, UK is like a husband and wife arguing inside the house. After no deal Brexit: still the same arguments, only then the husband will be outside the house, shouting through the door.
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As a British National living in Germany the limbo should end for me as I will then know what will be needed to continue living and working here in Germany and that analogy is perfect and so true, me I am just fed up now from day one there should have been cross party discussions to get the best possible deal where no one would lose anything or not so much. Also its sad seeing the country I was born and raised in turning into a horrible xenophobic backwater but hey Johnson with hitch himself to Trump's coattails and all will be well or will it.
 

Drifter

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Another group with to much time on their hands

Anti-Brexit 'Londependence' Party launches demanding 'self-governance' for the capital

A new anti-Brexit party has registered with the Electoral Commission, urging backers to vote for London’s separation from the rest of the UK.

The Londependence party will run a campaign of “self-governance” for the capital, saying Brexit dragged the city into a “humiliating mess”.


Party leader Geoff Hinkley said: "In the wake of the Brexit vote, Londoners need to determine their own destiny. We have paid too much for too long."


In a video statement broadcast on the party’s website, he said: “Brexit was supposed to be about patriotic pride but you can't be proud of this shambles.


“England has dragged London into a humiliating mess.


“London voted Brexit down by a 20% margin. England should not be able to impose this course on us without our democratic consent.

“The SNP is making that case for Scotland and we'll make the same case for London.”

Mr Hinkley goes on to describe Londoners as “badly served” by English democracy, accusing both Labour and the Tory party of failing to “speak up” for the concerns of Londoners.


The former software developer also laments that European Londoners - “our neighbours and colleagues and friends” - have been hung out to dry in the Brexit turmoil.

The Londependence Party is calling for Article 50 to be revoked, accusing British politicians of offering the country a choice “when they had no idea how to deliver it.”


“They triggered Article 50 still without any plan how to deliver it,” said Mr Hinkley.

“And even now, the only reason we're still beating our heads against this wall is because politicians aren't brave enough to admit they messed up.”

Mr Hinkley, a “fan of death metal and Baroque opera” is working with his colleague Rizwan Syed to raise awareness and funds for their party.

Londependence will soon launch a crowdfunding campaign for the London Assembly elections in May 2020.


It will need to raise £5,000 to be in the running, the party states on its website.

Citing its three pillars as a “diverse”, “autonomous” and “liveable” London, the party pledges to fight for more affordable housing, “a clear path to citizenship for everyone who's part of our city”, and the “right to decide how our taxes are spent.”

“Not only has London's vote against Brexit been ignored, everything else we have been saying since has been ignored as well,” Mr Hinkley says in his video.

“The people who now support Brexit now want - intentionally - to hurt London. And they still want it even though all the analysis shows that it will hurt them.

“It will hurt them even more than it hurts us. It's the mentality of a suicide bomber," he adds.

“But we've had real suicide bombers here in London. We don't give in to them. We stand up and we stand together."
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DOTA

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Sweet Square said:
Also the Green party is awful

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I am so angry. I am now joining the ranks of the politically homeless, as they say...

I have an MP who wants to play with Tories and a local Labour Party that has not remotely regained trust yet after its councillors defected to the Tories and UKIP.
 

Sweet Square

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DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I am so angry. I am now joining the ranks of the politically homeless, as they say...

I have an MP who wants to play with Tories and a local Labour Party that has not remotely regained trust yet after its councillors defected to the Tories and UKIP.
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:(


Good article here about the green party in 2019

By now you will have heard about Caroline Lucas's emergency all-female cabinet in response to the looming no deal Brexit. And the derision has proven to be near universal. From proposing a cross-party alliance among politicians with little in common to the essentialist supposition that women are bound to do a better job of negotiating Brexit because, well, they're women (um, Theresa May?) and to the noted exclusion of black and minority ethnicity women from her fantasy cabinet. An absence compounded by her clarification/apology that all the leading women in British politics happen to be white. So quite how did the very Brexity backbench Yvette Cooper get selected for Caroline's gang over the very remainy actual Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott? Readers can speculate about this oversight.

Unfortunately for the Green Party's sole MP, this crass initiative has pretty much trashed her reputation among a left who've happily given her the time of day. Despite the space she has put between the Greens and Corbynism, and going full-on remain since the EU referendum. It's a distance travelled from green radicalism to green liberalism, but why the journey at all? What happened to the searing critic of the Blair government and all-round champion of good causes?

Some, particularly on the left, might point to the original sin of green politics: the analytical primacy of the relationship of our species to the environment. Notwithstanding the diversity within green thought and the integration of leftist positions, most of what you might call mainstream green politics swerves or downgrades the importance of class analysis: as if the logics of capital and the exploitation of labour has little to do with our collective species relationship to the environment. Conceived this way, what matters is the doing of something to prevent unsustainable usage of the Earth's resources and climate change which, historically, in the early years of the Greens resolved into a division between radicalism and pragmatism.

The Green Party in England and Wales (the Scottish Greens are a separate organisation) has undergone significant shifts during its history. Starting out as People, this was a conservative and misanthropic sect steeped in Malthusian population control - compare this to the (West) German Greens who were a party hailing from the new social movements of the 1970s. In the 80s it moved to the left, which is where it has sat ever since with varying degrees of radicalism. Caroline Lucas, for instance, has been arrested at Faslane protesting Trident and at Balcombe in an action against fracking. During the 2015 general election campaign, the Greens - then under Natalie Bennett's leadership - formed a de facto alliance with the SNP and Plaid Cymru and were able to place themselves to Labour's left and poll over a million votes for their efforts. Leftism paid.

And then it didn't pay any more. The emergence of Corbynism has made it impossible for the Greens to operate profitably against Labour's left flank, as the 2017 election underlined. The election of Jonathan Bartley as co-leader, in retrospect, appears a significant moment the party acknowledged the new political reality it operated in. Unlike Caroline Lucas and his co-leader, Sian Berry, who have backgrounds in activism, Bartley worked on John Major's leadership campaign to see off John Redwood in 1995, described himself as late as 2010 as a "floating voter" and had a wonkish career flitting between think tanks and doing odds and sods commentary for the BBC. In other words, he's the first senior Green figure who is entirely the product of Westminster and its environs. And you know what social being does, right? It tends to condition consciousness. Bartley was elected jointly with Lucas in September 2016 after the Greens heavy involvement in the remain campaign, with the latter being one of its most visible advocates during the referendum. Particularly since continuity remain took to the streets Lucas has allowed herself to be positioned as the greenish wing of EU fandom, associating the party more with Brexit than other issues. Meanwhile Labour has stolen their march on a green industrial strategy, opposition to fracking, and support (admittedly guarded) for Extinction Rebellion stunts. Still, the current turn hasn't harmed the Greens' electoral standing. In the EU elections this year the party polled 1.4m votes, its best results since it won 2.3m back in 1989. Likewise when it comes to local elections and by-elections, the Greens have proven more adept at picking up disgruntled centre/floating Tory votes than disgruntled lefties or Blairy refugees from Corbynism. Which means they're fishing in the same pond as the Liberal Democrats.

All of a sudden, the desire for a remain alliance or some such nonsense becomes clearer. Nick Cohen looked like he had egg on his stupid face when the first piece of proper journalism he did for nigh-on 20 years got roundly mocked by Sian Berry on social media, but as someone on the party's left would she necessarily be involved in tete tetes between the offices of Caroline Lucas and Jo Swinson? From the Greens' point of view, it makes sense for them to come to an arrangement with the yellow party thanks to the near identical constituency profile. And also to reach out to politicians in other parties who broadly fit with/might appeal to this sub strata of the electorate, and make them look like the much celebrated "grown-ups in the room". So the two halves of what was Change UK, the SNP and Plaid, certain "soft" Tories like Justine Greening, and remainy Labour members like Emily Thornberry were dutifully namechecked. And Yvette Cooper got included too because she's part of the same milieu, and is a great hope of the centrists - even though her Brexit position is more Brexity than the stance of the supposed closet leaver leading the Labour Party.

Being and consciousness, remember that? When you move in new layers there is a tendency to acquire their habits of thought. The elite circles of continuity remain, the studios, the corridors, tearooms, and parliamentary offices of assorted MPs are rarefied environments where individual politicians and figures appear within the milieu as significant personalities with real world pull. How else to explain the continued crush for the sulky Alastair Campbell? But it is also a dismissive, near preternaturally white environment where the nostrums of social liberal inclusion demand the requisite lip service, but little beyond that. Diane Abbott and other leading women of colour in the Labour Party do not mix in these exalted centrist circles, nor are they onside politically speaking. Therefore when Lucas said her fantasy cabinet was composed of leading women, her mind automatically connected to her narrow parliamentary squad.

Yes, Caroline Lucas's standing has suffered from this episode, less thanks to the implicit racism in her letter but because it demonstrates how far she's travelled from an activist politics to the most vapid parliamentary gesture politics. A sad demise, all told.


https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-demise-of-caroline-lucas.html
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Buster15

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DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I am so angry. I am now joining the ranks of the politically homeless, as they say...

I have an MP who wants to play with Tories and a local Labour Party that has not remotely regained trust yet after its councillors defected to the Tories and UKIP.
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Very much like me.
Our Tory MP Chris Skidmore is a career Tory who has done nothing else.
I have written to him a number of times on specific issues.
No longer. All I ever get is an obviously pre prepared letter trotting out Tory policy.
Absolute rubbish and a total waste of time.
I have always voted Labour but no longer while they are run by Momentum and have a useless and unelectable leader in Corbyn.
I am old fashioned and believe that I have a duty to vote.
But I am struggling to believe in any of the political parties.
 

DOTA

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Buster15 said:
Very much like me.
Our Tory MP Chris Skidmore is a career Tory who has done nothing else.
I have written to him a number of times on specific issues.
No longer. All I ever get is an obviously pre prepared letter trotting out Tory policy.
Absolute rubbish and a total waste of time.
I have always voted Labour but no longer while they are run by Momentum and have a useless and unelectable leader in Corbyn.
I am old fashioned and believe that I have a duty to vote.
But I am struggling to believe in any of the political parties.
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My objection to the local Labour Party is that they until recently weren't run by Momentum. I am waiting to see if the 'Corbynistas' have successfully purged the Tory and UKIP sympathisers. People seem to think so but I've not seen enough yet to convince me to do anything but spoil my ballot, if we do have the joy of voting again soon.

I have more faith in Momentum than I have in Corbyn, or anything else going to be honest.

On your main point, I'm sure you're right in thinking there is no point trying to engage with Chris Skidmore. Quick google of him and your constituency makes me fear you could be stuck with him for a very long time, so I offer my sympathies. Unless the Tories permanently destroy themselves before the end of the year, which isn't a particularly small possibility.
 

Buster15

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DiseaseOfTheAge said:
My objection to the local Labour Party is that they until recently weren't run by Momentum. I am waiting to see if the 'Corbynistas' have successfully purged the Tory and UKIP sympathisers. People seem to think so but I've not seen enough yet to convince me to do anything but spoil my ballot, if we do have the joy of voting again soon.

I have more faith in Momentum than I have in Corbyn, or anything else going to be honest.

On your main point, I'm sure you're right in thinking there is no point trying to engage with Chris Skidmore. Quick google of him and your constituency makes me fear you could be stuck with him for a very long time, so I offer my sympathies. Unless the Tories permanently destroy themselves before the end of the year, which isn't a particularly small possibility.
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Quite agree and thank you so much for your comments.
 
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