Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Oldyella]

Labour must be careful what they wish for. I doubt many in the country actually want an election.
What they do want is for this continuing chaos to be brought to a conclusion. And an election is only going to make it worse.
A second referendum is now the only way to resolve this issue.
Parliament cannot decide so it is up to us the electorate to make the decision for them.

Agreed but we need to know what the deal is to have that imo. That's the start of the whole problem imo.

Remain and negotiated deal should be the options we have. No deal should not be a possible option no matter how much people pretend they want it, it's just irresponsible to have it, either that or it should require a super majority.

 

[sun_tzu]

Resign?... It might actually all be a cunning Cummings plan?

If he goes for the election under the fixed term parliament act on Monday he almost certainly looses

If he resigns (as pm) on Tuesday then the queen should call upon Corbyn to try to form a government... At which point all the focus turns to labour and their brexit plan / probable inability to agree with libs etc and within 14 days that falls as it can't get a confidence vote through...
Election in theory then I believe 31st October?
Not sure who / how the extension legistlation could / would be implemented?

 

[Wibble]

Where do you think todays legions of pensioner tory voters come from?

They were young once and probably just as nice and idealistic as todays young, but as they grow older their perspective shifts and they realise that nice/idealistic guys tend to finish last, if they finish at all, and that just as much bullshit comes from all across the political spectrum, not just the right, and that standing and shouting in the streets can be exciting but in this country (as opposed to France) it usually achieves jack shit, except of course if you are arrested and then often police/criminal record is established that will follow you forever.

It took me years to realise that some support for left wing causes in my early twenties that saw me out on the streets had been photographed and recorded and years later stopped me getting onto short lists for certain job... obviously that can't happen now, but it did then.

The ageing process generally wears you down and slows you down, but it gives you one big advantage you begin to realise that in your youth, you knew feck all!

The aging process has made me realise that society as a whole is far more important than the selfish mean spirited vision of the right of politics.

 

[Buster15]

Agreed but we need to know what the deal is to have that imo. That's the start of the whole problem imo.

Remain and negotiated deal should be the options we have. No deal should not be a possible option no matter how much people pretend they want it, it's just irresponsible to have it, either that or it should require a super majority.

Yes of course.
Boris needs to be sent to the EU to establish once and for all the best and final deal. And that should happen by the end of October.
Whatever the outcome that should form the basis of the referendum.

 

[owlo]

thats exactly what it is

the conservatives think (or at least want the majority to think) that the majority of the poor are poor because they are lazy and feckless and therefore deserve to be poor. Wheras the rich are rich because they are intelligent and hardworking.
hence the narrative that they always peddle that those that scam the welfare system are a major problem, whereas all the research shows they account for less than 1% of the welfare budget. The narrative drives home the message that the poor are feckless.

Whereas most of the funding issues could be solved if you could get the rich people and rich corporations to pay the taxes on their wealth that they should.
I am not saying overtax the rich, just that they should pay the same proportion of their income in tax as the poor do. currently they pay much less.

Yep, I've made plenty since Monday over currency volatility on just 2 pairs. But it's not taxable as this method of trading is 'betting.' Absolute joke. And I'm small fry. I know institutions/people who have made over £100m just over the same period. Just one example.

Its fecking ridiculous. 99% of people I grew up work harder and smarter than me.

 

[owlo]

Yes and no
The difference is it's a confidence vote is that once Johnson fails there is a 14 day period for somebody else to form a government by showing they can carry a majority of the house of commons
I think it's unlikely anybody can... Unless labour (well Corbyn really) would coalesce around say Ken Clarke.
But it does mean that it would be 2 weeks till Johnson could call an election... Presumably he would have to recall the house of commons (I am presuming this is possible during prorogation) but given the lead in time an election requires it would (I think) mean the election would be after the EU summit and after the extension bill kicks in
Johnson might have to accept that as the only way he can get an election called but it's not exactly on the dates he wanted plus the small.risk of a gnu

Yes it's possible. Think I showed you the timeline before though, he's fecked. This is a bit outdated, but just shift the dates.

 

[Kentonio]

Just drag it out until prorogation begins. Boris wanted the delay, so make him suffer from it.

 

[711]

Just drag it out until prorogation begins. Boris wanted the delay, so make him suffer from it.

That's exactly what he wants. Parliament does nothing until the default position, crashing out.

 

[esmufc07]

That's exactly what he wants. Parliament does nothing until the default position, crashing out.

If he doesn't seek an extension he will be breaking the law. Not quite sure what would happen in that situation. He's mandated to ask for an extension on the 19th if there's no agreed deal, so I doubt he would be able to last 12 days if he refused to do so.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

If he doesn't seek an extension he will be breaking the law. Not quite sure what would happen in that situation. He's mandated to ask for an extension on the 19th if there's no agreed deal, so I doubt he would be able to last 12 days if he refused to do so.

I’m wondering that myself. What would actually happen if he ignored the legislation and refused to send the letter requesting an extension?

I guess it would end up at the Supreme Court. Who knows what would happen there. They may rule that if parliament believes the PM not to be obeying the law, the correct solution is for parliament to remove him through a vote of no confidence.

 

[Smores]

It's just incredibly frustrating that the brexiteers who cry will of the people like some wind up toy can't make the leap from saying let's go to a general election so the people can speak to let's just have a referendum eh? It defies logic.

In a way i dont think the peoples vote campaign has helped at all because they've made going to a people's vote into such a big loss for the government

 

[esmufc07]

Gina Miller loses her case. Appeal at the Supreme Court on 17th September

 

[esmufc07]

I’m wondering that myself. What would actually happen if he ignored the legislation and refused to send the letter requesting an extension?

I guess it would end up at the Supreme Court. Who knows what would happen there. They may rule that if parliament believes the PM not to be obeying the law, the correct solution is for parliament to remove him through a vote of no confidence.

There's be a 14 day window with a VonC so perhaps the opposition parties will coalesce round somebody to install a temporary PM with a view to an election in November once no deal has been averted.

All just guess work at the moment though.

 

[Kentonio]

I’m wondering that myself. What would actually happen if he ignored the legislation and refused to send the letter requesting an extension?

I guess it would end up at the Supreme Court. Who knows what would happen there. They may rule that if parliament believes the PM not to be obeying the law, the correct solution is for parliament to remove him through a vote of no confidence.

He'd be out of office almost immediately. There are a lot of Tories who are willing to go along with a leadership who bend the rules, but the number who would be willing to support him trashing the constitutional system like that would be much, MUCH smaller. Even many hardcore Brexiters would turn on him in that situation.

Also worth remembering that Boris is throwing away friends left, right and centre at the moment. A large number of Tories are furious about the 21 losing the whip, and if he pushes his luck much further he's going to be spending more time looking out for daggers in the back than attacks from the opposition.

 

[711]

If he doesn't seek an extension he will be breaking the law. Not quite sure what would happen in that situation. He's mandated to ask for an extension on the 19th if there's no agreed deal, so I doubt he would be able to last 12 days if he refused to do so.

Oh right, I see what Ken meant now. Things moving too fast for old 711. I don't know how mandatory the mandatory vote actually is though. It's not a law as such is it?

 

[owlo]

Oh right, I see what Ken meant now. Things moving too fast for old 711. I don't know how mandatory the mandatory vote actually is though. It's not a law as such is it?

Yep it's actual legislation.

 

[711]

Yep it's actual legislation.

Right thanks, I'm probably confused with indicative votes.

 

[SteveJ]

Boris Johnson's controversial enforcer warned a former cabinet minister he would be ‘purged’ if he stepped out of line on Brexit, Tory sources said last night.

In an extraordinary phone rant, Dominic Cummings issued a direct threat to Greg Clark during a heated exchange ahead of Tuesday night’s crunch vote allowing MPs to seize control of Commons business.

A senior Tory source said Mr Cummings told former business secretary Mr Clark: ‘When are you f***ing MPs going to realise we are leaving on October 31? We are going to purge you.’

A second former minister confirmed the account, adding: ‘This is the most reckless and vindictive handling of colleagues I have seen in my 20-odd years in parliament. It’s a disaster – Cummings is out of control.’

Details of Mr Clark’s phone call to Mr Cummings, confirmed by several sources, suggested it was made to discuss a possible compromise following a fractious meeting between rebels and Mr Johnson on Tuesday morning. The prime minister told Mr Clark to ‘call Dom’ to discuss the idea. But when he rang Mr Cummings, the PM’s senior adviser is said to have opened the conversation with a brusque ‘What do you want?’ before launching into a rant and then hanging up.

 

[Maticmaker]

I’m wondering that myself. What would actually happen if he ignored the legislation and refused to send the letter requesting an extension?

I guess it would end up at the Supreme Court. Who knows what would happen there. They may rule that if parliament believes the PM not to be obeying the law, the correct solution is for parliament to remove him through a vote of no confidence.

That is more than likely what they would say.

There have been two legal rulings now that have effectively thrown out the charges against Boris, one in Scotland, one in England, for proroguing Parliament, which tends to suggest the higher courts are extremely reluctant to rule against anything where the HM as head of state as already agreed to such actions since that could produce the biggest upset to our Constitution of all thats currently going on.

The Crown is the Supreme Authority, Judges, the Supreme Court etc and all, receive their authority from it, and the Crown in the guise of the reigning monarch (allegedly) gets it from God. Whoa there... sort that one out, could we be seeing the beginning of birth i.e. going into Labour (excuse the pun)) of the first Republic since Cromwell's Commonwealth?

Brexit is and has become, 'a battle royal'

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If he doesn't seek an extension he will be breaking the law. Not quite sure what would happen in that situation. He's mandated to ask for an extension on the 19th if there's no agreed deal, so I doubt he would be able to last 12 days if he refused to do so.

And the EU say - why do want an extension? have you a new solution - no! Is parliament going to ratify the WA? - No! So why do you want an extension? Because I'm being sacked in the morning, sacked in the morning, oh sacked in the morning.

 

[esmufc07]

And the EU say - why do want an extension? have you a new solution - no! Is parliament going to ratify the WA? - No! So why do you want an extension? Because I'm being sacked in the morning, sacked in the morning, oh sacked in the morning.

The EU have already indicated they will grant an extension.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The EU have already indicated they will grant an extension.

They may do, but lord knows what for. Nothing will be different.

 

[Massive Spanner]

If he doesn't seek an extension he will be breaking the law. Not quite sure what would happen in that situation. He's mandated to ask for an extension on the 19th if there's no agreed deal, so I doubt he would be able to last 12 days if he refused to do so.

I think the obvious solution is to bring back the guillotine.

 

[T00lsh3d]

They may do, but lord knows what for. Nothing will be different.

You just want it to all end badly

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You just want it to all end badly

No, I just don't see what granting an extension will do, other than prolonging the uncertainty.

 

[esmufc07]

They may do, but lord knows what for. Nothing will be different.

The longer we stay in the higher the chance we end up revoking A50.

Grant extension, humiliate Boris

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The longer we stay in the higher the chance we end up revoking A50.

Grant extension, humiliate Boris

Yes humiliate Boris, but that's short term pleasure.

Who's going to revoke A50 because it's not going to be Boris or Corbyn or another new Tory PM.

 

[esmufc07]

Yes humiliate Boris, but that's short term pleasure.

Who's going to revoke A50 because it's not going to be Boris or Corbyn or another new Tory PM.

New referendum. Revoke A50. Hold referendum. Leave wins. Invoke A50. Start process all over again

 

[T00lsh3d]

No, I just don't see what granting an extension will do, other than prolonging the uncertainty.

Uncertainty is better than a drastic drop off a cliff. For that matter, anything is better than a drastic drop off a cliff, even if it only gives a glimmer of hope. We bemoan people who say “I’m bored of this now, let’s just have no deal and get on with it”. I’m surprised someone who clearly has a vested interest is basically adopting that attitude. Unless, of course, you do want it to end badly

 

[Paul the Wolf]

New referendum. Revoke A50. Hold referendum. Leave wins. Invoke A50. Start process all over again

Exactly

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Revoking A50 would be another mockery of referendum and democracy. Brexit will have to happen, its a matter of which interpretation of it happens and how to so soften the blow. The opposition will have to run against Johnson on a platform based on some version of a deal May negotiated, whether they like it or not.

 

[Andy_Cole]

New referendum. Revoke A50. Hold referendum. Leave wins. Invoke A50. Start process all over again

Haha imagine.

I don’t think leave would win again as everyone seems to be sick of it now (regardless if you’re leave/ remain).

 

[Honest John]

Exactly

So the EU IS the Hotel California

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Uncertainty is better than a drastic drop off a cliff. For that matter, anything is better than a drastic drop off a cliff, even if it only gives a glimmer of hope. We bemoan people who say “I’m bored of this now, let’s just have no deal and get on with it”. I’m surprised someone who clearly has a vested interest is basically adopting that attitude. Unless, of course, you do want it to end badly

But the uncertainty can't go on forever, at some point everyone has to move on. Uncertainty is still harming the UK, not as much as leaving will but even the uncertainty will make businesses take decisions they have possibly managed to postpone so far but can't do indefinitely.
I don't really have a vested interested now I've gained french citizenship and will never live in the UK again and nor do I want it to end badly but it won't go away.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So the EU IS the Hotel California

No, the UK can leave but face the consequences of leaving which they don't seem to want to do.

 

[Smores]

Just do a leave/remain ref with the option on the same form that if leave wins which version Mays or No Deal.

It's not hard to conclude a mandate. Then leavers get to enforce their will if they do have a majority and even if remainers lose they at least get to choose between the two leave outcomes.

If you're taking it out of parliaments hands then do it all the way. All Boris has to do is put forward a motion for a statement that the house will respect a people's vote result. He can then cry victory that he's given the people the power.

 

[Hammerfell]

I'm quite convinced this Brexit thing is never going to happen.

 

[owlo]

Just do a leave/remain ref with the option on the same form that if leave wins which version Mays or No Deal.

It's not hard to conclude a mandate. Then leavers get to enforce their will if they do have a majority and even if remainers lose they at least get to choose between the two leave outcomes.

If you're taking it out of parliaments hands then do it all the way. All Boris has to do is put forward a motion for a statement that the house will respect a people's vote result. He can then cry victory that he's given the people the power.

BJ knows that's absolute suicide! Remain would smash leave now.

 

[horsechoker]

What about if we're independent on weekdays but the EU has us at weekends?

 

[Pexbo]

Revoking A50 would be another mockery of referendum and democracy. Brexit will have to happen, its a matter of which interpretation of it happens and how to so soften the blow. The opposition will have to run against Johnson on a platform based on some version of a deal May negotiated, whether they like it or not.

Err why’s that then? Because that’s how democracy has been described by one side? A slim majority in an advisory referendum when nobody had the first clue about what Brexit might actually mean? A referendum where the largest two campaigns on the winning side actually partook in criminal activities to boost their chances of winning and both leave campaigns were absolutely chock full of promises that have now been proven to be absolute fantasy. We’ve gone from blissful sovereign heaven to “some people will die due to medicine shortages but it’s a price we must pay” and “we probably won’t need to ration food but it will be more expensive”.

In light of the stark contrast between promises and reality, it would be incredibly undemocratic to deny people the chance to change their mind in light of actual facts.