Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Massive Spanner]

To be fair to finneh, the EU acknowledges the CAP has some significant negative environmental and social impacts in developing countries and is looking at ways to mitigate them. Here’s an EU Parliament report on the issues involved: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/603862/EXPO_STU(2018)603862_EN.pdf

I'm not sure how that article is a negative. The fact that they've acknowledged the problems and are actively outlining how to solve them is surely a good thing? I never denied the fact that Europe's greed can have a bad effect on developing countries, it's Finneh's radical idea that the UK would be better off outside the EU because it can "help poor black people" that I find hilarious. As if the UK on its own, struggling as an economy, will give a flying feck about African nations as it tries to worm its way back into relevance.

I mean their main priority is getting back into a trade agreement with the EU which will mean largely implementing the policies of the CAP anyway so what's the point? Let's be honest he's said it as a pure smokescreen to make it look like he wants to leave for "the right reasons" which we all know is bullshit. He already made a load of bullet points earlier in the thread and this was practically at the bottom of his list.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I'm not sure how that article is a negative. The fact that they've acknowledged the problems and are actively outlining how to solve them is surely a good thing? I never denied the fact that Europe's greed can have a bad effect on developing countries, it's Finneh's radical idea that the UK would be better off outside the EU because it can "help poor black people" that I find hilarious. As if the UK on its own, struggling as an economy, will give a flying feck about African nations as it tries to worm its way back into relevance.

I mean their main priority is getting back into a trade agreement with the EU which will mean largely implementing the policies of the CAP anyway so what's the point? Let's be honest he's said it as a pure smokescreen to make it look like he wants to leave for "the right reasons" which we all know is bullshit. He already made a load of bullet points earlier in the thread and this was practically at the bottom of his list.

You read that report quick.

'Solving' the issue is only going to go so far, to be honest. The EU is a protectionist trade block, with a common market to protect European producers (and consumers) at the expense of other countries. It necessarily involves discriminating against producers outside the trade block, that's the entire point. The subsidies of the CAP have pretty huge distortions on many global agricultural markets, which few in the EU deny. Whether you think that is a good thing or not is another issue (I personally think it is justifiable).

I also agree that finneh is being disingenuous in his arguments for voting leave, but this is one issue where there is a valid argument to be made. I will argue the ends justify the means, but don't dismiss people who think the 'EU first' mentality is problematic in a polarised global economy.

 

[mancan92]

A health professional I see regularly tells me not to get stressed or het up about things I can't control. It's very difficult when you're watching the daylight robbery of a nation in slow motion.

I mean it is fact that a majority of people voted for brexit due to xenophobic reasons. Thats literally what all the polls show.

 

[Massive Spanner]

You read that report quick.

'Solving' the issue is only going to go so far, to be honest. The EU is a protectionist trade block, with a common market to protect European producers (and consumers) at the expense of other countries. It necessarily involves discriminating against producers outside the trade block, that's the entire point. The subsidies of the CAP have pretty huge distortions on many global agricultural markets, which few in the EU deny. Whether you think that is a good thing or not is another issue (I personally think it is justifiable).

I also agree that finneh is being disingenuous in his arguments for voting leave, but this is one issue where there is a valid argument to be made. I will argue the ends justify the means, but don't dismiss people who think the 'EU first' mentality is problematic in a polarised global economy.

You're preaching to the choir here, as I already said, I'm not in denial that the EU is a problem for developing countries and needs to do much more.

I don't think the bold is in any way true, because it's pure fantasy to think the UK will rectify any of the problems caused to those countries by the EU, should a clean break occur. I don't think it's even been mentioned by any politicians in the last four years, unless you count Teresa May having a dance in South Africa.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

You're preaching to the choir here, as I already said, I'm not in denial that the EU is a problem for developing countries and needs to do much more.

I don't think the bold is in any way true, because it's pure fantasy to think the UK will rectify any of the problems caused to those countries by the EU, should a clean break occur. I don't think it's even been mentioned by any politicians in the last four years, unless you count Teresa May having a dance in South Africa.

I don't know what 'needs to do much more' really means in this context. This is the point of a trade block with a common external tariff to protect its producers and internal market.

I remember reading this paper about 15 years ago and it stuck with me: https://policy-practice.oxfam.org.u...r-regime-is-devastating-livelihoods-in-114623

I agree the UK having an independent trade policy isn't going to do much, if anything. It could eliminate tariffs and quotas on agricultural goods from developing countries I guess, but would inevitably destroy its own domestic farming sector. Fun times.

 

[Sultan]

A bill of this importance and complex surely needs the timetable to be longer than being proposed? This is more important than party politics as it needs proper scrutiny as it affects the country and us all for years - It matters that this scrutiny takes as long as it's needed.

 

[Sultan]

Is Boris trying to get this through in such a short timescale is basically to appease his ego and grandstanding, or am I missing something obvious?

 

[Wibble]

Is Boris trying to get this through in such a short timescale is basically to appease his ego and grandstanding, or am I missing something obvious?

He doesn't want for people to notice how many rabid fleas this dog of a deal has.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Is Boris trying to get this through in such a short timescale is basically to appease his ego and grandstanding, or am I missing something obvious?

Pressure from his paymasters #notsoconspiracytheory

 

[Sultan]

Why would the EU give us a free trade deal when one of the main points of the EU is to protect its markets and producers? Surely we must be giving up something in return?

 

[Pexbo]

A bill of this importance and complex surely needs the timetable to be longer than being proposed? This is more important than party politics as it needs proper scrutiny as it affects the country and us all for years - It matters that this scrutiny takes as long as it's needed.

Of course, that’s blindingly obvious but Brexiteers are impatient and terrified it’s never going to happen, Boris and co are desperate to steer us towards No Deal so are playing on the Brexiteers impatience and trying to force it through.

 

[Rooney24]

Is this realistic? Could Boris just not table the bill if he wasnt happy with the Amendments? And would the result then be no deal?

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[MikeUpNorth]

Why would the EU give us a free trade deal when one of the main points of the EU is to protect its markets and producers? Surely we must be giving up something in return?

In return, we would give tariff free access to the UK market and some commitments to 'level playing field' regulations.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

So now where here there will be "admin fees" for businesses and residents ordering things from the mainland UK... What a fecking joke, the vast majority of purchase and trade is done with mainland UK. Yeah this is a great deal for NI.

 

[Smores]

Is this realistic? Could Boris just not table the bill if he wasnt happy with the Amendments? And would the result then be no deal?

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Its not just realistic it's likely. It wouldn't be no deal though as the EU will be giving us an extension and that'll be written into EU law.

All feeds into their delay mantra. I assume the real reason they've given MPs 12 hrs is so when they moan they could repeat "delay, delay, delay".

 

[Drifter]

Brexit branded 'waste of time and energy' by Jean-Claude Juncker as Donald Tusk insists no-deal will 'never be' EU's decision


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ile-donald-tusk-insists-he-bloc-a4267421.html

 

[horsechoker]

Brexit branded 'waste of time and energy' by Jean-Claude Juncker as Donald Tusk insists no-deal will 'never be' EU's decision


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ile-donald-tusk-insists-he-bloc-a4267421.html

Jokes on Junker, it's been a waste of money and resources.

 

[Rooney24]

So now where here there will be "admin fees" for businesses and residents ordering things from the mainland UK... What a fecking joke, the vast majority of purchase and trade is done with mainland UK. Yeah this is a great deal for NI.

Yeah, and Barclay has also confirmed that NI businesses will have to complete export declaration forms when sending good to Britain.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You read that report quick.

'Solving' the issue is only going to go so far, to be honest. The EU is a protectionist trade block, with a common market to protect European producers (and consumers) at the expense of other countries. It necessarily involves discriminating against producers outside the trade block, that's the entire point. The subsidies of the CAP have pretty huge distortions on many global agricultural markets, which few in the EU deny. Whether you think that is a good thing or not is another issue (I personally think it is justifiable).

I also agree that finneh is being disingenuous in his arguments for voting leave, but this is one issue where there is a valid argument to be made. I will argue the ends justify the means, but don't dismiss people who think the 'EU first' mentality is problematic in a polarised global economy.

The article that Finneh quoted was written by someone who clearly has no idea what he's writing about , collated a few details, whether correct or not and come up with an article with a headline "how the EU starves Africa". He has obviously no idea how trade works, tariffs or agreements, that there are for example African equivalents to the EU such as ECOWAS , that they are in the process of looking at having the same currency, that there is an EPA between the EU and Ecowas which is signed up by all parties awaiting Nigeria to be the last one which gives tariff free access the the single market and allows tariffs to be charged by ECOWAS countries on 25% of their goods.
I'll stop here because I could go on all day.

Yes there are some problems which are in the process of being addressed. finneh's got the wrong bogeyman, he's much further to the east.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Yeah, and Barclay has also confirmed that NI businesses will have to complete export declaration forms when sending good to Britain.

Yeah and how was this found out? A simple question to which the original answer was "no they wont have to", a few minutes later when what looked like a note was handed to Barclay did he say "yes they would have more paperwork". Its an absolute mess of a situation where information clearly isn't known around this deal and should rightly be rejected out of hand. Il be honest I was all for honouring the leave vote but really I am starting to see that no one hand of heart could say this is what was up for a vote originally. It has now become a question of keeping a Union.

 

[Honest John]

Erm 'was' ... his stated party policy is now for a 2nd referendum.

PS: I don't like Corbyn anyway. Labour yes, Corbyn, No.

Dragged kicking and screaming to that position. He's a Bennite and hates the EU. That is why he was invisible during the referendum campaign - even though he was supposed to be supporting remain. He bears a lot of responsibility for where we are now. At every juncture he has had it in his gift to influence matters - from the referendum itself to passing Mays deal and sidelining the nutters in parliament. But he has cynically decided to play politics all the way through.

 

[sun_tzu]

Is this realistic? Could Boris just not table the bill if he wasnt happy with the Amendments? And would the result then be no deal?

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Yes I think it may actually be the most realistic option
Bill withdrawn... (if government think customs union or 2nd referendum will pass) EU then offer extension (gut feel they offer it till June) and say right last extension... You now have time to run an election and a referendum if you need to but either you resolve it by June 1st or you sign up to the next 7 year funding commitments.

With an extension secured either labour launch a no confidence motion... Or more likley they agree to vote with Boris for an election asap under fixed term parliament act

We get an election in early December and from there honestly who knows

 

[Honest John]

Yeah and how was this found out? A simple question to which the original answer was "no they wont have to", a few minutes later when what looked like a note was handed to Barclay did he say "yes they would have more paperwork". Its an absolute mess of a situation where information clearly isn't known around this deal and should rightly be rejected out of hand. Il be honest I was all for honouring the leave vote but really I am starting to see that no one hand of heart could say this is what was up for a vote originally. It has now become a question of keeping a Union.

You'd have thought the minimum requisite before appearing before a select committee would be to have your brief totally nailed. Thinking you can wing one of those is a total mugs game.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

You'd have thought the minimum requisite before appearing before a select committee would be to have your brief totally nailed. Thinking you can wing one of those is a total mugs game.

It is and it shows the cheer audacity of the Tory party, Boris' arrogance is clearly rubbing off on them.

 

[Honest John]

Just a thought. Would it be possible for the May deal to be brought back?

 

[sammsky1]

What to expect today in the Commons https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-50136270
UK Parliament/Jessica TaylorCopyright: UK Parliament/Jessica Taylor

Today’s sitting in the Commons will get under way at 11.30 BST, when MPs will question business and energy ministers for about an hour.
After this, there will be an urgent question from Conservative MP David Davis on the plight of British children trapped in Syria.
This means the debate on the government’s Withdrawal Agreement Bill (WAB) is likely to start at about 13.15 BST.
MPs are expected to debate the bill until 19.00 BST, after which they will be asked whether they want to give their general approval to it by backing it at second reading stage.
If they do, then after this they will be asked to approve the government's three-day timetable for scrutinising the legislation - which has proved a major flashpoint with opposition MPs.

 

[sammsky1]

Is Boris trying to get this through in such a short timescale is basically to appease his ego and grandstanding, or am I missing something obvious?

October 31st, Doesn't want to die in a ditch.

 

[Honest John]

October 31st, Doesn't want to die in a ditch.

He already died in a ditch for writing his "Dear EU, My name is Boris and I am 5" letter

 

[sammsky1]

This is why giving MPs overnight to read a 200 odd page document is absurd. Hopefully an amendment is placed to extend the timetable for scrutinizing this legislation because there's no reason it has to be rushed through like this.
I think I'm leaning towards favouring deselection for any Labour MP who supports Boris here.

Jim Fitzpatrick? Even though his London constituency Poplar Limehouse was 66% Remain.

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[Maticmaker]

But he has cynically decided to play politics all the way through.

Isn't that what they've all been doing, isn't that what we expect of our politicians, i.e. to 'play politics' until that is, they play in a way that we don't agree with, then we term them 'cynical'?

All politicians are/have to be, cynical and if Brexit has taught us/or confirmed for us anything, its that...oh yes, and they are all claiming to be doing what their constituents tell them, or carrying out 'the Will of the people', or campaigning for a 'People's Vote' (who else would be voting if not the people??), or acting in the National interest. This last one absolutely kills me.

What can we do about it? Well, perhaps install a 'benevolent dictator', send to the Tower (for five years) all Politicians who break their election promises, we could elect the 'Monster Raving Looney' Party, or even the Lib Dems!!

 

[fergieisold]

You're talking about 30 million xenophobes though. And by your logic then is Rees-Mogg a Corbyn enabler or vice versa?

You're trying to paint it as leave v remain as nasty thick racists vs friendly, educated liberals, which is obviously simplistic and not constructive.

It isn't constructive and it isn't completely true. Having said that there's certainly an element of truth to the idea of it being less well educated people vs well educated people. From my own experiences people who voted leave do not, on the whole, have any sensible argument other than usually waffling on about British Bulldog type spirit. There are a minority of leavers I've met that have raised important points though including immigration and concerns surrounding sovereignty.

 

[NWRed]

Corbyn's view of this country is as much, if not more, in line with National Socialism. Taking over business, forcibly if necessary, big government and control over people's lives. Don't forget, it's actually called Socialism.

He's an antisemite too.

The 'socialist' part of the NSDAP was basically a label to attract the working class away from communism, in it's implementation national socialism was a fusion of business leaders and government so not socialist at all. Like I said they disbanded the unions very quickly after gaining power.

There were old communists in the party leadership, mostly from Northern Germany, but these either dropped their socialist ideas like Goebbels or were pushed out/killed like Strasser.

 

[mancan92]

Im really praying we get a last minute change of heart from mps to drop his bill. Feck it let it go to general election I don't think tories will get this landslide win people think. I don't see that trust has risen in them if anything its gotten worse.

 

[sammsky1]

It isn't constructive and it isn't completely true. Having said that there's certainly an element of truth to the idea of it being less well educated people vs well educated people. From my own experiences people who voted leave do not, on the whole, have any sensible argument other than usually waffling on about British Bulldog type spirit. There are a minority of leavers I've met that have raised important points though including immigration and concerns surrounding sovereignty.

70% of Leave voters educated to GCSE or below
68% of Remain voters educated to degree level

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

 

[Maticmaker]

Im really praying we get a last minute change of heart from mps to drop his bill.

Wouldn't that then mean a 'no deal ' on the 31st Oct?

Wouldn't it be to late to do anything else and especially if Boris imitates Lord Nelson and puts the telescope to his blind eye, saying "what Extension signal", I see no signal"?

Surely it would be better to get the Bill passed, but with a shed load of Amendments, then the time limit factor acts the other way, cutting off the 31st deadline?

 

[Massive Spanner]

70% of Leave voters educated to GCSE or below
68% of Remain voters educated to degree level

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

Wouldn't be mostly due to the age gap, though? Far more younger people now go to university than would have 40-50 years ago.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Just a thought. Would it be possible for the May deal to be brought back?

If Boris's agreement passes , they'll be plenty asking themselves why they didn't pass May's plus 7 months of the transition period wasted

 

[Maticmaker]

70% of Leave voters educated to GCSE or below
68% of Remain voters educated to degree level

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

"A little learning can be a dangerous thing"... who said that?

 

[Honest John]

Im really praying we get a last minute change of heart from mps to drop his bill. Feck it let it go to general election I don't think tories will get this landslide win people think. I don't see that trust has risen in them if anything its gotten worse.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/10/16/political-trackers-14-15-oct-update

Doesn't look that way I'm afraid. Sure the Tories could blow a poll lead ala Theresa May during the campaign but I think that is unlikely. Labours conduct in this saga will have done a lot of damage - especially to Corbyns credentials as a potential PM. Plus, for all that he is, Boris Johnson is popular.

Timing and circumstance will be key. At the moment BJ is making big capital out of the People v Parliament idea. If his deal gets scuppered or delayed he can go to the country claiming that he did his absolute best but was stopped by 'that lot'. 'Give me the majority and I'll deliver Brexit and all those other money tree promises'. I reckon 340+ seats.

It might change - BJ is more than capable of shooting himself in both feet. But right now he and Cummings seem be ahead of the game.

 

[Honest John]

70% of Leave voters educated to GCSE or below
68% of Remain voters educated to degree level

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

Surely that can't be. How to you account for the genius that is Tim Martin?