Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

B20 said:
I think it does since you seem blissfully unaware.

“Always the victims, it’s never your fault” has its roots in mocking the Justice for the 96 campaign and the idea that liverpudlians felt victimised by their treatment by the police and authorities (and of course the Sun).
When the fans were claiming that the fans were not actually at fault for what happened at Hillsborough and kept demanding justice for the injustice wrought upon the victims and their families, rival fans thought it was ridiculous and started the chants of "“Always the victims, it’s never your fault” as if the Liverpool fans should simply accept the (false) blame and move on.

Took more than 20 years for the truth to be officially acknowledged that no fans were in fact at fault for what happened at Hillsborough and that there had been a genuine government conspiracy to cover up the truth of what happened and place blame on the fans instead authorities.

But do carry on.
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This is absolute bollocks and consistent with the typical Scouse delusion.

"Always the victims" began over the Suarez/Evra racism storm where Liverpool put the blame at the feet of Evra and the FA rather than their own player.

It was sang by supporters of United and several other rival clubs, including Everton for circa 18 months before Liverpool fans decided it was a Hillsborough jibe after a United-Liverpool game.

It was even sang by Everton fans at Anfield the day Liverpool publicly thanked Everton for their support during the JFT96 campaign for goodness sake.

Liverpool fans deciding 18 months down the line that it's anti Hillsborough rather than calling them out over backing a racist in their own team basically proves the point of the song.
 
Rather than swilling round in the gutter with ‘victims’ shouts, consider the following as a decent rule around the matter...

If such a chant can reasonably be interpreted as being deeply unpleasant and offensive then steer clear regardless of the perceived provenance of said chant.

In short, don’t chant ‘always the victims’.
 
RobinLFC said:
No you didn't, and this has been done to death every time we have difficulties to break a team down. "Oh why doesn't everyone plays like that against them" as if it's that simple.

You learned nothing new last Sunday, we shit the bed at Old Trafford with a freakishly scary regularity and last game was nothing new. Mourinho regularly outwitted Klopp in their H2H matchups yet it didn't stop us from winning a feckload of other games because there are very few teams capable of keeping us at bay for a whole game. I will be really surprised if Spurs get anything from the game at Anfield this weekend.
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I though the word "potentially" and my subsequent qualification that few teams would have the same set of players to pull it off covered me there but I guess not.

To clarify, your position is that there was absolutely nothing different about our approach, it had no impact whatsoever on Liverpool's ability, and no team could possibly learn anything useful from that game other than "Liverpool shit the bed at Old Trafford regularly"?
 
shabadu84 said:
I though the word "potentially" and my subsequent qualification that few teams would have the same set of players to pull it off covered me there but I guess not.

To clarify, your position is that there was absolutely nothing different about our approach, it had no impact whatsoever on Liverpool's ability, and no team could possibly learn anything useful from that game other than "Liverpool shit the bed at Old Trafford regularly"?
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I don't watch your games so I don't know if anything was different compared to usual. We were extremely poor, worst game of the season, which I guess was equally down to (i) us shitting the bed at Old Trafford and (ii) your (first half) tactics.

But no, I don't think teams will learn something new from the game which they didn't already know before. It's not like Ole brought some revolutionary tactics forward or anything, like I said Mourinho and even Van Gaal managed to beat us often before.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
I know but we weren't just better. They were dreadful. The tactics were bad, he hadn't prepared anything against tactics in which our two forwards are attacking the wide spaces although he had faced such tactics before and he pretty much wasted the first 45 minutes. What followed was him repairing his own mess and not a tactical masterclass. And as i mentioned earlier, he has a better side and he certainly had more options than us. And waiting for Young to lose his man isn't exactly a sign of a tactical genius.
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Like I said, calling it a tactical masterclass is way over the top and I'm not really interested in how the author is trying to fellate Klopp. But he had a point in that we probably didn't do enough to react to his tactical changes.
 
Siorac said:
Like I said, calling it a tactical masterclass is way over the top and I'm not really interested in how the author is trying to fellate Klopp. But he had a point in that we probably didn't do enough to react to his tactical changes.
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That's true. Solskjaer's in-game management, in general, leaves a lot to be desired. It was kind of expected too since we don't possess much quality but rely on "effort" to get us through games in the end. Anyway, i believe Klopp's tactical changes gave them the initiative but we were not giving them any breathing space down the central channels. It wasn't like they were creating chance after chance and you could see their equalizer coming from miles away (that's where i disagree with the author). What we didn't do was try to find a way to push them back a bit and ease their pressure. Whether it's simply a matter of personnel or Solskjaer believed that we could withstand it, it's up for debate. The latter surely gives a more Mourinho-esque aura to the whole performance. And it will create more problems in the future if Solskjaer can't come up with a better way to win matches/protect leads than outrunning the opposition for as much as he can and then sitting back. But if it hadn't been for Young's momentarily lack of concentration, this article wouldn't have existed.
 
JB7 said:
This is absolute bollocks and consistent with the typical Scouse delusion.

"Always the victims" began over the Suarez/Evra racism storm where Liverpool put the blame at the feet of Evra and the FA rather than their own player.

It was sang by supporters of United and several other rival clubs, including Everton for circa 18 months before Liverpool fans decided it was a Hillsborough jibe after a United-Liverpool game.

It was even sang by Everton fans at Anfield the day Liverpool publicly thanked Everton for their support during the JFT96 campaign for goodness sake.

Liverpool fans deciding 18 months down the line that it's anti Hillsborough rather than calling them out over backing a racist in their own team basically proves the point of the song.
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I think it's hard to deny the fact that there are inescapable connotations about Hillsborough when chanting 'always the victims' at Liverpool fans. Irrespective of the intention or origins of the chant, that basis alone should mean opposition fans should refrain from saying it.
 
lysglimt said:
Not to mention that Origin's touch was so poor that he had lost the ball before Lindelöf kicked him.
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Agree, just because there was minimal contact, after he'd lost the ball anyway doesn't mean it's a free kick.
 
Samid said:
Typical scouse delusion.
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I'm a United fan. Have been since the 70's. If you can't see that United setup to be defensive everytime they play the scousers and have setup defensively everytime they play the scousers for the past 4 seasons then you are living in denial. Mourinho did exactly the same thing for 3 seasons and got hammered for it from the fans, rightly so in my opinion. Ole does the same and he's a genius. The hipocrosy is unbelievable.
 
bonothom said:
I'm a United fan. Have been since the 70's. If you can't see that United setup to be defensive everytime they play the scousers and have setup defensively everytime they play the scousers for the past 4 seasons then you are living in denial. Mourinho did exactly the same thing for 3 seasons and got hammered for it from the fans, rightly so in my opinion. Ole does the same and he's a genius. The hipocrosy is unbelievable.
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In fairness, I think it's because most fans have now twigged that we're a bit shit. Our standards have indeed lowered since the time Mourinho was in charge.
 
United58 said:
Their goal didn't seem a foregone conclusion, though. I thought they were very poor for a team that's 6 points clear - they looked very nervous and disjointed at times.

Their goal was more down to our terrible defending than any relentless pressure from them
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Kinda true, but it was almost a foregone conclusion because our defense generally lets in a goal a game. Thats why it was easy to predict that the top team in the league is going to finally get something to click and get a good chance.
 
BobbyManc said:
I think it's hard to deny the fact that there are inescapable connotations about Hillsborough when chanting 'always the victims' at Liverpool fans. Irrespective of the intention or origins of the chant, that basis alone should mean opposition fans should refrain from saying it.
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Disagree. There is barely any chant they wouldn’t associate with Hillsborough if they thought there would be some sympathy in it for them so I’d rather just take things at face value and see it for what it is - a song about their reaction to racism. Like I said, it took 18 months for them to decide it was about Hillsborough, they’re wrong and just playing up to their reputation so feck them.
 
Liverpool hardly play attacking football against us too. Playing pointless possession football and hoofing it to their strikers is how they set up their last ten games, hardly some attacking football.
 
BobbyManc said:
I think it's hard to deny the fact that there are inescapable connotations about Hillsborough when chanting 'always the victims' at Liverpool fans. Irrespective of the intention or origins of the chant, that basis alone should mean opposition fans should refrain from saying it.
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I’m 30, and I know the history, but for me, and my friends in similar situations, would bring up the Suarez racism-t-shirt campaign for this. Connotations are personal association after all.
 
I like Klopp. I like his energy. But that is just talking from dissapointment. He was so sure we could be easly beaten but found out that Ole won tactical gameplan in first half. Beside Firminho chance Liverpool had 0 chances. We were robust and hard to break down. Second half is different story where they were lot better. Liverpool were there for winning. We were there for taking point. Tactics are tactics. Looking at all circumstance we did ok. Nothing more, nothing less.

I wonder if Liverpool luck will start turning soon. They have been lucky few times this year so a draw or win for Tottenham on sunday after a draw against us could make them start thinking with City hunting them.
 
JB7 said:
Disagree. There is barely any chant they wouldn’t associate with Hillsborough if they thought there would be some sympathy in it for them so I’d rather just take things at face value and see it for what it is - a song about their reaction to racism. Like I said, it took 18 months for them to decide it was about Hillsborough, they’re wrong and just playing up to their reputation so feck them.
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I totally agree with you . We sing this song at home games and at Anfield and I for one would never ever say a word about the tragedy that happened at Hillsborough . For some Liverpool fans to attach Hillsborough to that song when they know right well it and nothing to do with it is embarrassing.
 
PickledRed said:
Rather than swilling round in the gutter with ‘victims’ shouts, consider the following as a decent rule around the matter...

If such a chant can reasonably be interpreted as being deeply unpleasant and offensive then steer clear regardless of the perceived provenance of said chant.

In short, don’t chant ‘always the victims’.
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Could be worse. Our players and club could have openly supported a proven racist. Now that really is the gutter.
 
bonothom said:
I'm not a bloody Liverpool fan. I'm a United fan. United fans who are celebrating a negative performance like that are the same ones who were slaughtering Mourinho for adopting the same tactics. The hipocrosy is amazing.
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bonothom said:
I'm a United fan. Have been since the 70's. If you can't see that United setup to be defensive everytime they play the scousers and have setup defensively everytime they play the scousers for the past 4 seasons then you are living in denial. Mourinho did exactly the same thing for 3 seasons and got hammered for it from the fans, rightly so in my opinion. Ole does the same and he's a genius. The hipocrosy is unbelievable.
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(I'm assuming that first bold bit doesn't literally mean EVERY time? Even in the 70s, we had a good go.)

There's a bit of a theme here and tbh, I can see why people would (mistakenly?) think you're a Liverpool fan from your posts. Maybe just not an Ole fan?

I'm a United fan from the 70s too (74 was first match) and I was there Sunday. No-one (around me in the ground or in the pub after) compared that setup to Mourinho. I didn't either.

Ole had a plan (maybe not rocket science) to keep Liverpool's fullbacks 'honest'. I don't remember Mourinho setting up like that (or splitting the forwards so wide like Ole did?). I don't even think TAA or Robertson played in 2017 (maybe 18?) so think their FB threat was completely different.

I think Ole didn't react in the last half an hour (though it still took an error not great play to concede) but if anyone is going to criticize that, they should praise the rest of it? Balance?

imo.
 
TheReligion said:
Could be worse. Our players and club could have openly supported a proven racist. Now that really is the gutter.
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Wasn't that debunked by arguments about how his grandmother said something racist to Suarez himself when he was a kid or something, so it was fine apparently.
 
TheReligion said:
Could be worse. Our players and club could have openly supported a proven racist. Now that really is the gutter.
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That was terrible, I agree.

However, moral equivalency isn’t usually a particularly useful way of contending with a ‘lesser’ wrong. It often just comes across as whataboutery.

Suarez T-shirts very wrong.

Victim shouts very wrong.

Both can be true.
 
PickledRed said:
That was terrible, I agree.

However, moral equivalency isn’t usually a particularly useful way of contending with a ‘lesser’ wrong. It often just comes across as whataboutery.

Suarez T-shirts very wrong.

Victim shouts very wrong.

Both can be true.
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Except they're not as has been pointed out to you on this page.
 
PickledRed said:
That was terrible, I agree.

However, moral equivalency isn’t usually a particularly useful way of contending with a ‘lesser’ wrong. It often just comes across as whataboutery.

Suarez T-shirts very wrong.

Victim shouts very wrong.

Both can be true.
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Both are bad. I haven't said otherwise, the public support of racism by a club and players is just worse in my opinion. It's just something to consider when coming across high and mighty with the unsavoury chants from idiots in the crowd.
 
TheReligion said:
Both are bad. I haven't said otherwise, the public support of racism by a club and players is just worse in my opinion. It's just something to consider when coming across high and mighty with the unsavoury chants from idiots in the crowd.
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Okay
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Except they're not as has been pointed out to you on this page.
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“Always the victim”

Always. That word can be reasonably interpreted as being an overarching judgement of more than a single issue.

As I say, if a chant can be widely perceived to be (at least in part) associated with something like Hillsborough then just avoid it.

Even if it emanated from the Evra affair, it has been hijacked by hostile fans of many clubs who use it with much more mendacious intent than is being argued here.
 
Samid said:
German posters talking about Klopp are the equivalent of Glaston talking about Spurs. Don't know why people bother responding them.
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Which country do they travel to when things go south?
 
Vault Dweller said:
I agree they had most of the ball but I honestly didn't think it was relentless pressure with loads of chances for them. I agreed with Keane, he said after the game he didn't necessarily feel like the goal was coming and it came from a mistake. I agree they had more of the ball but they didn't really do anything with it, I don't remember DDG having to make a save or a defender making a goal saving block or tackle.
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if you aren't playing a press then its ok to sit deep and let the opposition have loads of harmless ball rotation in the first two thirds. Happened to us week in week out under LVG. Thought we were set up well tactically on Sunday considering opponents and the available players. If Rojo stays goalside of his man we win. Who cares about possession, you dont win games on it.
 
S.A.F. reincarnated. Never been a manager more like Sir Alex in my opinion. He immerses himself right in the fabric of the football club. We don't have to talk about his persona and erratic behaviours as it's inconsequential compared to what he brings.

The great man was worried when they got him and sadly he was right. I worry how we are going to compete with Liverpool whilst he is there. It seems like a case of riding it out until he leaves as I don't think we are well placed to offer up a challenge.
 
F-A-C-T-S said:
S.A.F. reincarnated. Never been a manager more like Sir Alex in my opinion. He immerses himself right in the fabric of the football club. We don't have to talk about his persona and erratic behaviours as it's inconsequential compared to what he brings.

The great man was worried when they got him and sadly he was right. I worry how we are going to compete with Liverpool whilst he is there. It seems like a case of riding it out until he leaves as I don't think we are well placed to offer up a challenge.
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Does absolutely nothing of note for 3 years then comes close to winning the league = SAF reincarnated.
 
F-A-C-T-S said:
S.A.F. reincarnated. Never been a manager more like Sir Alex in my opinion. He immerses himself right in the fabric of the football club. We don't have to talk about his persona and erratic behaviours as it's inconsequential compared to what he brings.

The great man was worried when they got him and sadly he was right. I worry how we are going to compete with Liverpool whilst he is there. It seems like a case of riding it out until he leaves as I don't think we are well placed to offer up a challenge.
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:lol:
 
Zarlak said:
Does absolutely nothing of note for 3 years then comes close to winning the league = SAF reincarnated.
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"Rebuilds a mid-table side from the ground up, wins the Champions League, and gets one of the Premier Leagues highest point totals ever in 4 years." would be a more accurate description.
 
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