are you purposely trying to be obtuse? 1 shit season and therefore you should discard everything else? Have you ever heard of myopic vision?
If Poch takes over, how does he fix this mess?
- Thread starter manunited1919
- Start date
You surely don't believe that that's the entirety of the story? His comments from last spring onwards were all concerning for Spurs. And that bit with leaving if they'd win the CL. In many ways it emulates the alienation Mourinho experienced at United towards the end and it had a negative effect on the team's performances. They are both top class managers. Sometimes a manager's period at a club runs its course.
Whether we get Poch or someone else, they will all want assurances that the club will be run more professionally in the future than it has been over the last 6-7 years. If they have any serious ambition that is.
Long term progress means we are getting better each year. That did not happen with LVG and Mou. We distinctly got worse. If we finish 5th or 6th, we get one or two good transfers in January, and we play a better brand of football than we did last your, that would be progress. So far we haven't, but injuries have played a big part.
Solskjaer is a problem for United and just because their a shambles in the boardroom/with the football operations doesn't mean Ole deserves more and more time.
The club can simultaneously change other things within the club whilst also acknowledge that a much higher level of coach is required.
That said, experienced players like Herrera, Fellaini, and Lukaku being sold and not replaced wouldn't help any manager. None of them are special but they knew how to at least battle and do their jobs at Prem level. No manager would reach the top 6 with the likes of Fred and Pereira in midfield.
The club can simultaneously change other things within the club whilst also acknowledge that a much higher level of coach is required.
That said, experienced players like Herrera, Fellaini, and Lukaku being sold and not replaced wouldn't help any manager. None of them are special but they knew how to at least battle and do their jobs at Prem level. No manager would reach the top 6 with the likes of Fred and Pereira in midfield.
I think Poch would be the next in the line of failed managers, for a number of reasons.
The guy was obviously burnt out for one. He likely needs an extended break at the very least before he'll be back to his best.
Secondly, I don't think he's got the personality to cope with the pressure of a dysfunctional United. It takes a special kind of character to sustain any kind of success at the high-end of football, and I don't see that in Poch at all. He doesn't seem to have the grit, the obsessive determination of a SAF or a Pep. He also appears to have his heart set on Madrid, which sort of adds to that worry.
Last of all, I think what we've been crying out for since SAF is not someone who's 'Been there and done that', but someone on the way up, who's developed just the right base of knowledge & experience while still having the energy and desire to prove himself (Ala Klopp at Dortmund). Someone with a positive tactical approach and the ability to imprint it quickly, to bring back a bit of character to our club. Maybe Poch is that guy? I personally don't see it.
I don't watch enough football outside of United to say who that guy could be really. Rose & Nagelsmann both seem like strong candidates, playing good football and punching above their weight in Germany, but I don't see us landing either. I'm sure there are plenty of similar up and coming managers flying under the radar, if anyone can suggest some names?
I hope Ole pulls it out of the bag of course, but signs so far don't bode well on that front I'd say.
The guy was obviously burnt out for one. He likely needs an extended break at the very least before he'll be back to his best.
Secondly, I don't think he's got the personality to cope with the pressure of a dysfunctional United. It takes a special kind of character to sustain any kind of success at the high-end of football, and I don't see that in Poch at all. He doesn't seem to have the grit, the obsessive determination of a SAF or a Pep. He also appears to have his heart set on Madrid, which sort of adds to that worry.
Last of all, I think what we've been crying out for since SAF is not someone who's 'Been there and done that', but someone on the way up, who's developed just the right base of knowledge & experience while still having the energy and desire to prove himself (Ala Klopp at Dortmund). Someone with a positive tactical approach and the ability to imprint it quickly, to bring back a bit of character to our club. Maybe Poch is that guy? I personally don't see it.
I don't watch enough football outside of United to say who that guy could be really. Rose & Nagelsmann both seem like strong candidates, playing good football and punching above their weight in Germany, but I don't see us landing either. I'm sure there are plenty of similar up and coming managers flying under the radar, if anyone can suggest some names?
I hope Ole pulls it out of the bag of course, but signs so far don't bode well on that front I'd say.
Anything would be better than the circles we are going around for so long now.
Last edited:
At Spurs Pochettino came in and seriously cleared house, including making Adebayor, Spurs star player at the time, go and train with the under 18's. Selling the club captain and focusing on youth. His 2014/15 list of departures
Sigurdsson, Livermore, Sandro, Naughton, Dawson, Fryers, Falque, Assou-Ekotto.
Then in 2015/16 departures
Soldado, Townsend, Paulinho, Capoue, Stambouli, Chiriches, Holtby, Lennon, Kaboul, Adebayor, Freidel
19 first team and reserve players gone in two seasons. In that time he brought in some key players under his regime, Davies, Alli, Dier, Son, Alderweireld, Trippier. Who he added to the core squad he wanted to keep, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Lamela, Lloris, Kane, Walker, Rose.
Would he be permitted to do squad restructuring on this sort of scale here? Would Woody be happy for Poch to just cast off star players he is not keen on and sell them like he did with Adebayor? Im not so sure he would get the kind of freedom he got at Spurs to rebuild the squad.
Sigurdsson, Livermore, Sandro, Naughton, Dawson, Fryers, Falque, Assou-Ekotto.
Then in 2015/16 departures
Soldado, Townsend, Paulinho, Capoue, Stambouli, Chiriches, Holtby, Lennon, Kaboul, Adebayor, Freidel
19 first team and reserve players gone in two seasons. In that time he brought in some key players under his regime, Davies, Alli, Dier, Son, Alderweireld, Trippier. Who he added to the core squad he wanted to keep, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Lamela, Lloris, Kane, Walker, Rose.
Would he be permitted to do squad restructuring on this sort of scale here? Would Woody be happy for Poch to just cast off star players he is not keen on and sell them like he did with Adebayor? Im not so sure he would get the kind of freedom he got at Spurs to rebuild the squad.
Yes and more so when they just sacked this Ole fella who had taken them to Champions League final just a few months back and was getting them CL every season with ease. What a blind club I say!
At this rate, we'll be seeing threads for Big Sam soon.
Regarding Poch, I doubt he fixes us but I bet he'd get us playing better, at least to the level that our squad can get to. But like what @OleGunnar20 said, he's likely too burnt out to come to United right now.
Regarding Poch, I doubt he fixes us but I bet he'd get us playing better, at least to the level that our squad can get to. But like what @OleGunnar20 said, he's likely too burnt out to come to United right now.
Well he would need a feckload of investment in transfer which I doubt Woody and the Glazers will grant him since we've been fecking up ever since Fergie left. So I don't know. Squad looks like it needs 500 million investment to compete with the top.
Isn't that where you can only see yourself in photographs?
We had Mourinho. The same people who want Poch to replace Ole also wanted him to replace Mourinho, to the point they'd completely ignore the increasing simularities between the two.
Spurs have now literally replaced Pochettino with Mourinho and it's still done nothing to dampen the delusion. There's obviously more to it, but,, and I keep having to point this out, Spurs have not played well in a very long time. Pochettino has been sacked because he deserved to be sacked. That is a reality that shouldn't just be ignored.
In the real world where Pochettino isn't some kind of god, you don't sack your manager just so you can replace him with another manager who has literally just been sacked for doing worse than him. If you want the club to be run more professionally, a good place to start would be to not want them to do something utterly stupid like this.
Poch is a good coach, I loved the guy but he will not come in and instantly fix things. He will need time for his *philosophy* to start working. His first season with us was pretty boring, possession sideways and backward passing, to be honest I’d like to see what he can do with full backing, but it will take time.
Any manager sorts this out by firstly coaching this team well to play modern cohesive football. That's the first step - to become a proper football team regardless of changes in personnel.
It'll take time with any manager. But the potential and vision should be clear. For exams, I'm impressed with how clear and strong Lampards imprint at Chelsea. We need a coach of that ilk. Not sure whose the best candidate out there - Pochettino or one of the newer ones. I've always liked Pochettino but I'm not sure if his football is all that entertaining and expansive.
As a starter we will have a different system other than counter-attack. Counter-attack is an important weapon but cannot be your ONLY weapon, unless you are Norwich. A good manager will be able to coach the backline on how to defend as a team, instead of putting every one of them under the spot light. A good manager will also be able to coach the frontline on how to attack as a team, instead of seeing Rashford making solo run 60 yards into enemy territory without making any pass. A good manager will make our wingers and fullback work on their cross, on how to make overlapping run by running behind defenders, not in front of them. You can count how many side passing on our RHS, in front of defenders. Is Poch the right man to do this, you tell me.
How do you mean expansive? Jean a good manager but in reality we only had 2 maybe 3 seasons of exciting football.
Coaching modern patterns of play
Improving squad fitness (as in, stop overdrilling the boys until their muscles split in half)
Teaching the team how to press in an organised and effective way
Boosting morale
Having a plan to return the team to competitive levels that the players will actually believe in
Not making shit substitutions in the 77th minute of every. fecking. game.
All things Ole obviously cannot do.
Improving squad fitness (as in, stop overdrilling the boys until their muscles split in half)
Teaching the team how to press in an organised and effective way
Boosting morale
Having a plan to return the team to competitive levels that the players will actually believe in
Not making shit substitutions in the 77th minute of every. fecking. game.
All things Ole obviously cannot do.
People here have made up their minds that Pochettino is the solution to all our problems, similar to how everyone was convinced post the match against PSG that Ole was the manager we were all looking for.
Looking at Pochettino's career at Espanyol, he was sacked for having the team bottom of the league after 13 matches and he complained about lack of finances.
At Southampton, he left after a season only, though he did really well (8th place finish) but Koeman had them finish seventh and sixth the seasons after.
Then at Tottenham, he did really well though his good league performances coincided with a non-Pep Man City and a new look Liverpool under Klopp. It again ended in tears for him when he was sacked for a poor league start (awful form since January tbf) and he complained about lack of finances again.
The whole picture tells me he's the Argentinian Rafa Benitez, minus the trophies. Could he improve us? Definitely. Will he get us to where we want to be? Not really sure.
Looking at Pochettino's career at Espanyol, he was sacked for having the team bottom of the league after 13 matches and he complained about lack of finances.
At Southampton, he left after a season only, though he did really well (8th place finish) but Koeman had them finish seventh and sixth the seasons after.
Then at Tottenham, he did really well though his good league performances coincided with a non-Pep Man City and a new look Liverpool under Klopp. It again ended in tears for him when he was sacked for a poor league start (awful form since January tbf) and he complained about lack of finances again.
The whole picture tells me he's the Argentinian Rafa Benitez, minus the trophies. Could he improve us? Definitely. Will he get us to where we want to be? Not really sure.
I think it's clear cut that Pochettino is better than what we have. However I would also agree that it isn't a potential appointment without question marks. Where I think he scores well, is that he has proven himself to be excellent at laying foundations which is something we actually need more than anything. We need to, in 2 years time, be a team that with a little push and/or inspiration and genius, is ready to challenge on all fronts. For that we need someone capable of building a squad, from within, from outside, and especially tactically. I think this is something he's excelled at with Spurs. But if there are mor talented tacticians, particularly among the new German crop they may be a better choice. Either way, he should be in the conversation.
Either We get the defeated version of him or We get someone who's eager to proof He deserved better.
Either way, the coaching and tactics will be more organized. Ole has done great bringing in players that fit United and good enough to be here for years to come but his tactical/subs choices were questionable most of the time. I don't even know if this style of football We play is his doing or the MMM boys' (MPhelan/MKenna/MCarra).
Either way, the coaching and tactics will be more organized. Ole has done great bringing in players that fit United and good enough to be here for years to come but his tactical/subs choices were questionable most of the time. I don't even know if this style of football We play is his doing or the MMM boys' (MPhelan/MKenna/MCarra).
I read comments of people saying nobody can fix this mess which is absolute nonsense. I also see people say poch should have won a trophy with spurs that could be true to a point. People forget what he has done for Spurs in 5 years, he made them contenders and top 4 regulars. At the peak of his powers at Spurs they were one of the best teams to watch. i look at Ole and what he did at Sheffield and basically went there to park the bus and try to hit them on the break. Why not go there with 4 at the back and have a go. I want him out asap. Poch in.
Absolutely, I agree with all of that.
I just find the clamour for Pochettino as our saviour to be a bit bizarre. He's good, no doubt. But his history and past run-ins with hierarchy at previous clubs makes me doubt whether he will make it at Man Utd. Our structure, arguably, is more difficult to work with than he might have experienced previously. Mourinho, of all people, struggled to get his way and he has historically been someone who has been able to dictate terms his way.
Add to it the added responsibility of handling transfers. He didn't do that at Southampton nor at Spurs where he had worked with a DOF. Not sure how this works out with us.
The ideal candidate at this stage would have been someone like Wenger. He is someone who would improve the first team tactically while also laying the foundation for his successor. Looking at managers available, would Blanc be someone who will be able to do this?
Getting someone in for the next few months allows for time off for Pochettino which I think he needs while also giving us a chance to assess who's available over the summer and have a detailed process for appointing the next manager.
League positions since 2009/10:
| 2009-10 | 4th |
| 2010-11 | 5th |
| 2011-12 | 4th |
| 2012-13 | 5th |
| 2013-14 | 6th |
| 2014-15 | 5th |
| 2015-16 | 3rd |
| 2016-17 | 2nd |
| 2017-18 | 3rd |
| 2018-19 | 4th |
Some more digging produced this:
2015-16 - Leicester won the league, Spurs dropped out of CL in group stage and EL in Rof16
2016-17 - Chelsea won the league, Spurs dropped out of CL in group stage and EL in Rof32
2017-18 - City won the league, Spurs dropped out of CL in Rof16
2018-19 - City won the league, Spurs finished 4th and made CL final (only 1 pt ahead of Arsenal in 5th)
He has benefited from early exits in CL and EL to be able to produce sustained high league positions. Though this is also due to the small(er) squad size he's had.
Will Pochettino be the man to resurrect Man Utd? I'm a bit skeptical.
(Edited to fix formatting)
Get to feck with this shit, embarrassing yourself.
Sheffield were impressive in that regard in some sequences
It would not matter who was coaching us right now, we are a good 3-4 players short of having a competitive 1st 11, and about 8 away from having decent options to cover injuries and for rotation (taking the kids out of the equation), bringing in Poch would not change that, 3-4 transfer windows will, even if you are not behind Ole you cannot deny that his one real transfer window has been better than those of Moyes, LVG, or Mourinho.
This.
Fans have an obsession with blaming the manager but look at the players we have.
They’re a hundred miles off the level of City, Spurs or Liverpool’s.
Yes, we have a some absolutely fantastic players but until we’ve filled all the positions required (cdm, cm, lb, lw) or these players evolve (as they will) over the next few months/years. Pochettino will be in the same hole Ole is in.
(p.s, this new website sucks for typing a post on iPhone)
It always matters who your manager is. This notion that a manager can't be judged until the team is fixed couldn't be more incorrect. If anything how your team plays in general is an indication as to whether this manager is the one to actually fix the team.
Nah, he'd coach them to be prime Keane and Scholes according to some. It's that easy and Phelan or Ole, double champion with underdogs in Norway know nothing of coaching.
Get rid of Jones, Matic and all this crew.
Buy 4/5 new players and stop playing average players.
He's a real manager and we will for sure miss him cause he'll leave for Bayern or Juve
Buy 4/5 new players and stop playing average players.
He's a real manager and we will for sure miss him cause he'll leave for Bayern or Juve
Would be the first time we had a coach since LVG and not a manager. I'd be interested to see if he would improve the players that are already here. I think like most football relationships, the Spurs project had run its course......
Yes it’s crazy that a man that’s biggest achievement is winning a league at League 2 level is struggling at the biggest job in England.
We should have gave the job to Lee Bowyer with Phelan next to him just to see if people have the same opinion.
I mean what has Phelan been a success in since he left? Do you remember him at Fulham
You think SAF personally coached the players in drills and such? My little dig is at the idea that we don't have good coaching. We do. Some of them are just crap.Yes it’s crazy that a man that’s biggest achievement is winning a league at League 2 level is struggling at the biggest job in England.
We should have gave the job to Lee Bowyer with Phelan next to him just to see if people have the same opinion.
I mean what has Phelan been a success in since he left? Do you remember him at Fulham
Our forwards have been regularly combining for goals, I don't get how you say they can't play together. Our forwards and defense are good enough in terms of getting us into the top 4(first step is to cement ourselves as a top 4 team) midfield on the other hand is atrocious.
Our forwards keep getting the blame for it. Go into the Martial and James performance threads and there is talk about how they didn't perform for the first 60-70 minutes. Not surprising as we were only able to acert ourselves in midfield around that part of the game. Same as our game before the int break, when our forwards are given the ball regularly in the opponents half they seem to create and score just fine
There not Sheffield United crap mate. We just have a crap manager. Coaching I couldn’t tell you. But non of those players could play for this team. So when we put in a performance like that you have to ask questions. Even with a crap Pereria the other players were good enough to win. I mean than had their number 2 keeper and Jagielka at the back. So their crap balanced out our crap. Yet we still looked awful.
I wish he managed Liverpool they’d be 9th.
I think you might be underestimating SU this season and maybe overestimating some of our players. When we have a relatively fit side we tend to do ok, as are our results against the top 6 this season and the last few games as well. We'll be ok once McTominay and Pogba come back.
Good luck to you in thinking the players returning will help us. Ole is crap. As I’ve said if he took over at Liverpool they would fall out the top 4. We both know it’s true.
People who think Poch (or anyone) can just rock up and make us a good team are absolutely bonkers.
Would there be an uplift in the short term? Yes (you know, like the one Ole himself had)
Would it go to pot a few months in when the players stopped actually listening to instructions and reverted back to the type of shambolic displays that keep us in trouble? Yes (how do I know this? players have underperformed for Moyes/LVG/Jose and now Ole.....but they'll play good for Poch forever yeah?)
The argument that Poch is a better coach/manager than Ole?
I'll entertain it - so is Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. They all failed too. Hiring a "better manager" doesn't actually fix the problems.
Ole has changed a lot behind the scenes, coaching staff, scouting staff etc....wouldn't a whole new coaching team/set up just cause more disruption? I'd say yes. Until there is a fundamental change in the set up of this club - it really does not matter who is the "manager"
We need at least 3 more transfer windows to re-shape the squad. I'd rather the same manager have them windows than a different one each time, all with different transfer targets/style of play etc.
If you want a run of 10 games or so with a positive uplift, you sack ole and go for Poch. Soon as summer comes, get looking for a new manager though cos the cycle will repeat itself. Poch may be a good coach, but I don't think he'd make Phil Jones a better player, nor Young, not Matic...could Poch magically make Shaw/Bailly etc stay fit for more than 30 seconds?
We were outdone in midfield yesterday by Sheffield United. We had 2 midfielders in our squad to pick and Ole picked them, people saying Jones should be our DM? He shouldn't in the squad or club even! Ole maybe got his tactics wrong with formation, but I guarantee you - every manager will get it wrong on occasion.
I've always liked Poch as a manager and wanted him in before we hired Jose - but right now our club keeps making the same mistakes and we are so poorly run from board level down I honestly don't think any manager would make us better long term. We have to allow Ole time to re-shape the squad
Would there be an uplift in the short term? Yes (you know, like the one Ole himself had)
Would it go to pot a few months in when the players stopped actually listening to instructions and reverted back to the type of shambolic displays that keep us in trouble? Yes (how do I know this? players have underperformed for Moyes/LVG/Jose and now Ole.....but they'll play good for Poch forever yeah?)
The argument that Poch is a better coach/manager than Ole?
I'll entertain it - so is Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. They all failed too. Hiring a "better manager" doesn't actually fix the problems.
Ole has changed a lot behind the scenes, coaching staff, scouting staff etc....wouldn't a whole new coaching team/set up just cause more disruption? I'd say yes. Until there is a fundamental change in the set up of this club - it really does not matter who is the "manager"
We need at least 3 more transfer windows to re-shape the squad. I'd rather the same manager have them windows than a different one each time, all with different transfer targets/style of play etc.
If you want a run of 10 games or so with a positive uplift, you sack ole and go for Poch. Soon as summer comes, get looking for a new manager though cos the cycle will repeat itself. Poch may be a good coach, but I don't think he'd make Phil Jones a better player, nor Young, not Matic...could Poch magically make Shaw/Bailly etc stay fit for more than 30 seconds?
We were outdone in midfield yesterday by Sheffield United. We had 2 midfielders in our squad to pick and Ole picked them, people saying Jones should be our DM? He shouldn't in the squad or club even! Ole maybe got his tactics wrong with formation, but I guarantee you - every manager will get it wrong on occasion.
I've always liked Poch as a manager and wanted him in before we hired Jose - but right now our club keeps making the same mistakes and we are so poorly run from board level down I honestly don't think any manager would make us better long term. We have to allow Ole time to re-shape the squad
I believe he wouldn't make a knee jerk defensive change after scoring 3 goals in 8 minutes.