Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

I think young people know full well what the EU is. The issue is that they see it as something fundamentally different to you and can tolerate something far different to you. And the reality is that my children for example feel more of an affinity to Europeans their age than they do many of the lovely people who voted for Brexit.

I know that this is something that offends Boris and probably you. But it is the reality. What will be interesting for me is how that generation reacts in 20-40 years time when they become the dominant political group.


Have to laugh again though at the racism debate though. I know we're all down in the dumps about Brexit. I know the UK, like many countries, has problems with racism and there has also been an uptick in it since Brexit (god knows, I and one of my sons have experienced it). However, to pretend that the UK is some hotbed of racism while the rest of Europe is some kind of sea of tolerance. Give over ffs. I did have a particularly good chuckle at 'people in France aren't very xenophobic towards other EU citizens'.

Ah that's ok then. As long as the Europeans are protected from the worst excesses of it, its fine.

If you read the rest and not selected bits which suit you I said there was racism and xenophobia in all countries including France. This is the Brexit thread so the reasons France wouldn't vote to leave the EU because of immigration because even the racists realise that the people of other races (as in racists) as opposed to xenophobic (strangers) tend to not come from European countries.
I find all kinds of xenophobia and racism abhorrent.

Nobody is trying to say there isn't a problem in other countries, but trying to pretend there isn't a problem in the UK is ridiculous.

 

[Massive Spanner]

If France held a referendum they'd probably leave too. They're just as bad. But I don't think their Government would be stupid enough to do it.

 

[horsechoker]

If France held a referendum they'd probably leave too. They're just as bad. But I don't think their Government would be stupid enough to do it.

I think a few countries would vote leave but it wouldn't be without the outside influence of certain people and groups who would try similar tactics to mislead people. As you said I doubt any country would offer the same referendum unless they go extremely right wing.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If France held a referendum they'd probably leave too. They're just as bad. But I don't think their Government would be stupid enough to do it.

No chance.

 

[africanspur]

If you read the rest and not selected bits which suit you I said there was racism and xenophobia in all countries including France. This is the Brexit thread so the reasons France wouldn't vote to leave the EU because of immigration because even the racists realise that the people of other races (as in racists) as opposed to xenophobic (strangers) tend to not come from European countries.
I find all kinds of xenophobia and racism abhorrent.

Nobody is trying to say there isn't a problem in other countries, but trying to pretend there isn't a problem in the UK is ridiculous.

I did read the rest of the post, I didn't come to that section by itself by chance. It is still ridiculous to state that the xenophobia against other EU citizens is barely there, that is a completely irrelevant statement to me. 'Oh they hate Indians but they're ok with Chinese'. What would be the point of that statement?

Anyone trying to pretend racism isn't a problem in the UK is an idiot. Anyone trying to pretend that racism didn't play a part in some people voting for Brexit is also an idiot. Anyone trying to pretend the racism in the UK is somehow unique and that there isn't a huge amount of racism in other EU countries, also has their head up their arse.

I think, with all due respect (and I believe we've covered this topic before), you present a slightly idealised face of France. Perhaps France would vote to leave, perhaps not. As MS said, their government is thankfully not stupid enough to do it. But let us not pretend that this isn't the country that has put the national front 2nd in multiple elections. And not just after Marine's attempt to soften the party but even with outright holocaust denier Jean-Marie too.

'We want to take back control of our migration policy'

Who said this? Farage? Boris? Patel? Le Pen?

Nope, Macron's PM a mere few months ago.

 

[africanspur]

No chance.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/

Interestingly, this PEW survey shows France as being one of the few countries with a more unfavourable view of the EU than the UK.

 

[Massive Spanner]

No chance.

You live there so you probably know best but their approval ratings of the EU are pretty damning.

 

[Adisa]

If France held a referendum they'd probably leave too. They're just as bad. But I don't think their Government would be stupid enough to do it.

Staying in the EU is polling over 70% in France
Even Greece that you can make an argument for being screwed (disagree) are polling well over 60%.

 

[Adisa]

You live there so you probably know best but their approval ratings of the EU are pretty damning.

Approval ratings and voting to leave are two very different things.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I did read the rest of the post, I didn't come to that section by itself by chance. It is still ridiculous to state that the xenophobia against other EU citizens is barely there, that is a completely irrelevant statement to me. 'Oh they hate Indians but they're ok with Chinese'. What would be the point of that statement?

Anyone trying to pretend racism isn't a problem in the UK is an idiot. Anyone trying to pretend that racism didn't play a part in some people voting for Brexit is also an idiot. Anyone trying to pretend the racism in the UK is somehow unique and that there isn't a huge amount of racism in other EU countries, also has their head up their arse.

I think, with all due respect (and I believe we've covered this topic before), you present a slightly idealised face of France. Perhaps France would vote to leave, perhaps not. As MS said, their government is thankfully not stupid enough to do it. But let us not pretend that this isn't the country that has put the national front 2nd in multiple elections. And not just after Marine's attempt to soften the party but even with outright holocaust denier Jean-Marie too.

'We want to take back control of our migration policy'

Who said this? Farage? Boris? Patel? Le Pen?

Nope, Macron's PM a mere few months ago.

The National Front aren't advocating leaving the EU, that is the point of that statement.

 

[africanspur]

Staying in the EU is polling over 70% in France
Even Greece that you can make an argument for being screwed (disagree) are polling well over 60%.

It was polling well in the UK too before the referendum.

If you also asked most people on here, they'd have said of course we'll stay. This is a forum which heavily leans towards remain and most of our social circles lean that way too. I certainly have very few close friends or family who voted to leave.

 

[africanspur]

The National Front aren't advocating leaving the EU, that is the point of that statement.

In 2017, they were advocating for a return to the Franc, 6 months of negotiation with the EU to see if they would agree to a looser, purely economic based arrangement, followed by an in out referendum at the end of the negotiations.

She said she would recommend leaving the EU if she did not get the changes she wanted.

On top of that, she said she would immediately suspend the Schengen border-free area in France and reintroduce passport checks with its EU neighbours.

They were also proposing a limit to 10,000 legal migrants a year.

This is the election where she came 2nd in the 1st round, barely behind Macron and reached the run-off, getting a third of the total votes. This is the FN 'toning itself down'.

Edit: Took out the oh come on Paul as felt it was far too aggressive for the conversation. Apologies.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Oh come on Paul. In 2017, they were advocating for a return to the Franc, 6 months of negotiation with the EU to see if they would agree to a looser, purely economic based arrangement, followed by an in out referendum at the end of the negotiations.

She said she would recommend leaving the EU if she did not get the changes she wanted.

On top of that, she said she would immediately suspend the Schengen border-free area in France and reintroduce passport checks with its EU neighbours.

They were also proposing a limit to 10,000 legal migrants a year.

This is the election where she came 2nd in the 1st round, barely behind Macron and reached the run-off, getting a third of the total votes. This is the FN 'toning itself down'.

Yes but when she realised she'd made a complete ass of herself in the 2017 debate, remembering that the Socialists disintegrated and the Conservatives had the Fillon meltdown which enabled her to get 2nd, she dramatically changed her tune and now wants to keep the Euro and so on, ie completely change her policy because she revealed herself to be economically illiterate and hadn't got a clue what she was talking about. But as you say there is a certain percentage of the population (as in any country) who don't like people who are different to themselves.

 

[Ady87]

Priti Patel needs to get in the bin.

 

[Dumbstar]

Yay, I don't have to change my or my family's red passports. Just checked we can use them up to expiry which is well into mid-late roaring 20s.

 

[horsechoker]

Does anyone like the look of the blue passports?

If you take off your political spectacles I think they're good looking aesthetically. Once I put them back on they become a symbol of little England.

 

[devilish]

The EU shouldn't bother answering. The UK is now a third country. It either accept the terms or it can bugger off.

 

[africanspur]

The EU shouldn't bother answering. The UK is now a third country. It either accept the terms or it can bugger off.

This is how literally no negotiation in history works, unless we're talking about an utterly vanquished foe and the victors.

 

[Penna]

In France it’s already a requirement for permanent residence or citizenship so I imagine they could extend that to all working visas fairly easily if they chose.

Same in Italy for citizenship, and the standard required is one I'll never reach! My British friend here recently passed the extensive language competency exams but she's absolutely fluent - even so, she said it wasn't easy.

 

[Adisa]

It was polling well in the UK too before the referendum.

If you also asked most people on here, they'd have said of course we'll stay. This is a forum which heavily leans towards remain and most of our social circles lean that way too. I certainly have very few close friends or family who voted to leave.

Can't remember it polling above the 50s and in the months before the referendum it was virtually neck and neck.
In all, I don't think there are any EU governments under pressure to call a referendum.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Can't remember it polling above the 50s and in the months before the referendum it was virtually neck and neck.
In all, I don't think there are any EU governments under pressure to call a referendum.

They'll be under even less pressure in a few years once the Uk economy tanks.

 

[africanspur]

Yes but when she realised she'd made a complete ass of herself in the 2017 debate, remembering that the Socialists disintegrated and the Conservatives had the Fillon meltdown which enabled her to get 2nd, she dramatically changed her tune and now wants to keep the Euro and so on, ie completely change her policy because she revealed herself to be economically illiterate and hadn't got a clue what she was talking about. But as you say there is a certain percentage of the population (as in any country) who don't like people who are different to themselves.

That may or may not be true but the fact of the matter is, 1/3 of France voted for an openly racist party that had at its core (and still does, even if she is not quite as aggressive about a referendum currently) an anti-immigrant, anti EU and openly islamophobic platform (previously openly anti semitic too).

I think, with hardened attitudes and the internet being the internet, people seem to have become entrenched in some weird hyperbolic state where everything about the UK is utter shite, its a country populated by racists, the economy is going to tank and everyone hates the EU. While in mainland Europe, its all kumbaya and everybody loves the EU. It isn't quite as simple or as clear cut as that.

 

[africanspur]

Just for clarification and then comparison....

What are the immigration criteria / processes which the EU applies to non-EU citizens who wish to move into and then live and work inside the EU ??

Always seems to be lots of Turks in Germany ; Sth Americans in Spain ; Angolans in Portugal ; Nth Africans here in France, etc....

Or is this criteria set on an individual country-by-country basis ?

Not being provocative - I really have no idea....

I don't think it is about criteria necessarily, it is just where is easiest for a lot of these migrants to go (though actually, I don't know why so many Turks go to Germany specifically).

If you're Colombian and looking to come to Europe, where is easiest for you to settle? Angolan? Moroccan? Ghanian or Nigerian? It's simply a matter of language and at time culture too. I believe Portugal and Brazil have an agreement for instance which allows their citizens to go easily between the 2 countries.

The EU don't have any rules for who comes to individual EU countries or the EU as a whole ( I think this is a point which has been rather misunderstood by both sides). If Spain decided to allow in the entirety of Spanish speaking South America tomorrow, they could do. I believe East Timorese born before the 1990s can get a Portugese passport too?

Some of the poorer EU countries have visas which allow you to invest a certain amount and get a visa/ quick road to nationality, which I believe has been used by some richer Russians/ Arabs/ Chinese to get an EU passport in case the shit hits the fan.

So its completely a country by country basis.

 

[devilish]

This is how literally no negotiation in history works, unless we're talking about an utterly vanquished foe and the victors.

This sort of negotiations suggest 2 equal partners which isn't really the case. It's time for the EU to set the tone of these discussions. Unlike the UK the EU can afford walking out of the negotiation table and it's up to the UK to persuade it not to do it not viceversa

If trump can turn the UK into his bitch then so can the EU

 

[Penna]

Does anyone like the look of the blue passports?

If you take off your political spectacles I think they're good looking aesthetically. Once I put them back on they become a symbol of little England.

I still have my pre-EU blue passport somewhere. Unfortunately, oates has to renew this year and I might as well at the same time. Get it over with ...

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Does anyone like the look of the blue passports?

If you take off your political spectacles I think they're good looking aesthetically. Once I put them back on they become a symbol of little England.

Either colour works for me but at least this is one of the benefits of Brexit @vidic blood & sand

 

[africanspur]

This sort of negotiations suggest 2 equal partners which isn't really the case. It's time for the EU to set the tone of these discussions. Unlike the UK the EU can afford walking out of the negotiation table and it's up to the UK to persuade it not to do it not viceversa

If trump can turn the UK into his bitch then so can the EU

Actually, no it doesn't. At all. The EU has some kind of trade agreement (note, not necessarily free trade, just some kind of trade agreement) with about 50 countries.

Because of the size of the EU's economy (even without the UK), literally none of those agreements are between 2 equal partners. If such a negotiation were to take place between 2 equal partners, then there are 2 in the world, China and USA, neither of which have a FTA with the EU.

The only countries in the world outside of the EU, USA or China with a comparable economy to the UK are India (marginally bigger than UK), Japan (bigger than UK), Brazil and Canada (both smaller).

I would assume then that if you were leading the trade negotiations for the EU, you would walk in, set your demands with every country other than the USA and China and immediately storm out if the other country doesn't accept those demands?

Like I said, you're talking about a treaty of Versailles situation or a Japanese surrender post 2 atomic bombs. Total military defeat, with the country on its knees.

 

[devilish]

Actually, no it doesn't. At all. The EU has some kind of trade agreement (note, not necessarily free trade, just some kind of trade agreement) with about 50 countries.

Because of the size of the EU's economy (even without the UK), literally none of those agreements are between 2 equal partners. If such a negotiation were to take place between 2 equal partners, then there are 2 in the world, China and USA, neither of which have a FTA with the EU.

The only countries in the world outside of the EU, USA or China with a comparable economy to the UK are India (marginally bigger than UK), Japan (bigger than UK), Brazil and Canada (both smaller).

I would assume then that if you were leading the trade negotiations for the EU, you would walk in, set your demands with every country other than the USA and China and immediately storm out if the other country doesn't accept those demands?

Like I said, you're talking about a treaty of Versailles situation or a Japanese surrender post 2 atomic bombs. Total military defeat, with the country on its knees.

True but that is usually done with partners who are working in good faith. That's clearly not the case in terms of the UK who keeps insulting the EU, it keeps expecting it to work within its schedules and had littered the EU with a horde of red lines. Also you might not notice that the UK is now outside the EU which makes it a significant market just outside mainland Europe. Its a different scenario to that of Canada and Australia whose market differs to ours and therefore its within mutual interest to come out with a trade deal that helps both. No country had ever helped a direct competitor to thrive

Thus I insist, the best deal is to walk out of the negotiation table and let the UK creeping back begging for a deal on EU terms. Time is at the EU's side and the UK needs a deal with the EU as Congress has already made it pretty obvious that the US-UK trade deal will not be signed unless the GFA is respected. Thus the EU has the upper hand here cause no EU-UK deal would also mean no EU-US deal either. Maybe its also time for the EU to engage with Scotland in terms of a fast track route back into the EU just in case it decides to get its independence. The weaker the UK's hand is, the stronger the EU's hand will become.

PS, a no deal brexit will probably see the UK's economy shrink. However its nowhere near to being bombed by 2 atomic bombs or footing the entire bill of a world war. What's more likely to happen is for the Tory Party to vanish in thin wind having lost its credibility of a great post Brexit. Then the UK will return to the negotiation table with more realistic terms

 

[africanspur]

True but that is usually done with partners who are working in good faith. That's clearly not the case in terms of the UK who keeps insulting the EU, it keeps expecting it to work within its schedules and had littered the EU with a horde of red lines. Also you might not notice that the UK is now outside the EU which makes it a significant market just outside mainland Europe. Its a different scenario to that of Canada and Australia whose market differs to ours and therefore its within mutual interest to come out with a trade deal that helps both. No country had ever helped a direct competitor to thrive

Thus I insist, the best deal is to walk out of the deal and let the UK creeping back begging for a deal. The UK needs a deal with the EU as Congress has already made it pretty obvious that the US-UK trade deal will not be signed unless the GFA is respected, thus we have the upper hand here cause no EU-UK deal would also mean no EU-US deal either. Maybe its also time for the EU to engage with Scotland in terms of a fast track route back into the EU just in case it decides to get its independence. The weaker the UK's hand is, the stronger the EU's hand will become.

With respect, you're letting emotions cloud your judgement.

Thankfully, despite at times silly rhetoric, this is clearly not what is happening in the actual negotiations.

The UK isn't expecting anyone to work to its schedule. All it has said is that it won't extend the deadline beyond a year, not that a deal has to be signed by then. You will also notice that the EU has its own red lines, as is the case with any normal negotiation, whether its high level between countries or haggling at a local market.

The EU's own rhetoric, as well as that of individual member state leaders, show that they are rather less impressed with the prospect of no deal and the impact it would have on the European economy than you are and rightly so. Not coming to an agreement would be very harmful for both sides, not just the UK.

Scotland is of course welcome to claim independence (if they can actually get it over the line) but it would certainly very interesting to see how they would untangle themselves from the UK, considering they are economically, socially and culturally far more intertwined with the UK than the UK ever were with the EU. And we've all seen the clusterfeck that was the last few years in terms of trying to untangle.

The EU will not storm out of any negotiations and I think frankly you rather misunderstand the motivations of many people who voted to leave the EU if you think that the government would go crawling back to the EU if they did, whether that would be harmful to the economy or not.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That may or may not be true but the fact of the matter is, 1/3 of France voted for an openly racist party that had at its core (and still does, even if she is not quite as aggressive about a referendum currently) an anti-immigrant, anti EU and openly islamophobic platform (previously openly anti semitic too).

I think, with hardened attitudes and the internet being the internet, people seem to have become entrenched in some weird hyperbolic state where everything about the UK is utter shite, its a country populated by racists, the economy is going to tank and everyone hates the EU. While in mainland Europe, its all kumbaya and everybody loves the EU. It isn't quite as simple or as clear cut as that.

But originally in the first round it was in the low 20s as were most of the parties. Only when it became a 2 horse race in the second round did it go up to 30+ because some didn't want Macron. If she hadn't got through to the second round, you wouldn't say that she got zero votes in France either.
No-one has said that there are not problems in other countries. Of course there are Eurosceptics in France. Of course there are stupid people who believe all the nonsense. Social media is a problem but at least we don't get much tabloid press ramming the bias down people's throats and Le Pen is rather seen as an object of ridicule. Her mate in the 2017 election behind the policies left and joined the Gilet Jaunes for the Euro elections and got less than 1%

What hasn't helped the UK is that when people are asked why they voted leave and what the benefits would be, you can't get a coherent answer other than immigrants have taken all our jobs or suchlike. All other responses are usually complete drivel and nonsense and lies.

Whether people voted for it or not, it's happened - now the nonsense has to stop and the Uk has to live in the real world which it still does not seem to want to do.

 

[devilish]

With respect, you're letting emotions cloud your judgement.

Thankfully, despite at times silly rhetoric, this is clearly not what is happening in the actual negotiations.

The UK isn't expecting anyone to work to its schedule. All it has said is that it won't extend the deadline beyond a year, not that a deal has to be signed by then. You will also notice that the EU has its own red lines, as is the case with any normal negotiation, whether its high level between countries or haggling at a local market.

The EU's own rhetoric, as well as that of individual member state leaders, show that they are rather less impressed with the prospect of no deal and the impact it would have on the European economy than you are and rightly so. Not coming to an agreement would be very harmful for both sides, not just the UK.

Scotland is of course welcome to claim independence (if they can actually get it over the line) but it would certainly very interesting to see how they would untangle themselves from the UK, considering they are economically, socially and culturally far more intertwined with the UK than the UK ever were with the EU. And we've all seen the clusterfeck that was the last few years in terms of trying to untangle.

The EU will not storm out of any negotiations and I think frankly you rather misunderstand the motivations of many people who voted to leave the EU if you think that the government would go crawling back to the EU if they did, whether that would be harmful to the economy or not.

The UK had used the same old trick of setting a horde of red lines pretty early in the negotiations only to portray the EU as being unreasonable. In fact it refuses to extend the transition period or to accept a level playing field in terms of the environment, legislation etc. The only difference between now and then is that the UK is now outside the EU with no say on the matter whatsoever. Now its normal for trade talks to freeze which is why the trade deals takes years to complete. That what happened with the US-EU trade talks for example. So the EU should just let the UK slide into a no deal Brexit up until it come back to their senses and return on the negotiating table with more realistic terms. In the meantime the UK can still deal with the EU on WTO terms just like other third countries with no trade deals with the EU do.

Regarding the EU, I think it committed a rare but significant mistake when it spoke about a Canada like trade deal with the UK. That wasn't possible with a significant market such as the UK which is so close to the EU. That doesn't mean that the EU should accept that now.

A no deal Brexit would hurt the UK far more then it would hurt the EU which is why the UK won't let that happen. That would spell the end of the Tory Party, it will provide the SNP the perfect excuse to leave the UK and a hit to the EU's economy will harden the European's stance against the UK even further as this recession is not our doing. What the EU can't afford to do is to let a rogue third country, a spit away from the EU, to have a trap door into the single market. Which is why it must make sure that the deal made is in the EU terms and is vastly inferior to that of EU membership

 

[africanspur]

But originally in the first round it was in the low 20s as were most of the parties. Only when it became a 2 horse race in the second round did it go up to 30+ because some didn't want Macron. If she hadn't got through to the second round, you wouldn't say that she got zero votes in France either.
No-one has said that there are not problems in other countries. Of course there are Eurosceptics in France. Of course there are stupid people who believe all the nonsense. Social media is a problem but at least we don't get much tabloid press ramming the bias down people's throats and Le Pen is rather seen as an object of ridicule. Her mate in the 2017 election behind the policies left and joined the Gilet Jaunes for the Euro elections and got less than 1%

What hasn't helped the UK is that when people are asked why they voted leave and what the benefits would be, you can't get a coherent answer other than immigrants have taken all our jobs or suchlike. All other responses are usually complete drivel and nonsense and lies.

Whether people voted for it or not, it's happened - now the nonsense has to stop and the Uk has to live in the real world which it still does not seem to want to do.

That is a very optimistic way of looking at it. She got low 20s because that is the nature of a multi candidate presidential election. The other, more disturbing way of looking at it of course is that she came 2nd in the 1st round as well, only 2.5% behind Macron, who got 24%. The fact she got to the 2nd round is the concerning part, not how many votes she got then.

All of the other candidates, other than Melenchon iirc, then urged their voters not to vote for her to stop a fascist essentially from becoming president of France.

I also don't see how you can say she is an object of ridicule in France, when the party came 3rd in 2012 with 18%, 4th with 10% in 2007 and 2nd with 17% in 2002 (all 1st round results). Her party came 1st in the 2014 and 2019 European elections. Has been slowly increasing the share of the parliament as well in the last 3 elections.

This isn't a niche party like the BNP, they are getting an average of 1 in every 6 voters in the French presidential elections. For an openly fascist party with a bow on top.

In what way do you think the UK is currently not living in the real world? Despite being a remainer myself, I've at least seen the government attempt to a) suggest some domestic policies and b) set out their EU policy. They are essentially trying to move on with things. Whether the agreements are signed off course is another thing.

This is in stark contrast to here, with constant, unhelpful wailing from all about what has happened in the past.

 

[nimic]

But originally in the first round it was in the low 20s as were most of the parties. Only when it became a 2 horse race in the second round did it go up to 30+ because some didn't want Macron. If she hadn't got through to the second round, you wouldn't say that she got zero votes in France either.

I don't really buy this line of reasoning. It would be wrong to say she got zero votes in France, simply because she didn't get zero votes in France. But it's not wrong to say she got 30%+ votes because she did. No one was forced to vote for her in the second round. It'd be like absolving half of the Trump voters for voting for him because they hadn't voted for him in the GOP primaries.

 

[africanspur]

The UK had used the same old trick of setting a horde of red lines pretty early in the negotiations only to portray the EU as being unreasonable. In fact it refuses to extend the transition period or to accept a level playing field in terms of the environment, legislation etc. The only difference between now and then is that the UK is now outside the EU with no say on the matter whatsoever. Its normal for trade talks to freeze which is why the trade deals takes years to complete. That what happened with the US-EU trade talks for example. So the EU should just let the UK slide into a no deal Brexit up until it come back to their senses. I suspect that the EU is slightly more equipped for a non deal Brexit then the UK is.

Regarding the EU, I think it committed a rare but significant mistake when it spoke about a Canada like trade deal with the UK. That wasn't possible with a significant market such as the UK which is so close to the EU. That doesn't mean that the EU should accept that now.

Can you outline the UK red lines and then the EU red lines and why you think the UK ones are a 'horde' and the EU ones reasonable and small in number?

You are right of course in that trade talks usually talk a long time to do, which is why I personally think a year is a ridiculous time by the government. The difference of course being that those are two wholly different markets trying to converge, as opposed to two already convergent markets trying to ascertain how much they're happy to diverge. The status quo, the baseline, is already an agreed upon trade agreement.

I also suspect the EU is more equipped for a no deal Brexit but it would be harmful for both sides. Both the UK and the EU sliding into recession, especially if corona affects the economies of China, Japan, Korea and the USA (all very possible) benefits literally nobody.

I don't think it was a mistake, in the same way it wasn't a mistake for the UK to suggest similar regarding Norway, Canada, Switzerland etc. Their point is not necessarily to copy those agreements word for word but that they feel a trade agreement which is non templated may be a possibility.

Of course, the EU may disagree and in that case, we'll see how things play out.

What I am sure of is that

1) The EU does not want no deal (and I'm sure Boris doesn't either).
2) You fundamentally misunderstand the political climate of the UK currently, whether that is correct or not, if you think it would be politically acceptable for Boris to go 'crawling to the EU for a deal'.
3) A year is a fecking stupid amount of time for this and Boris and the Tories are a bunch of turds.
4) Whatever happens by December 2020 will not be the end of the story.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I don't really buy this line of reasoning. It would be wrong to say she got zero votes in France, simply because she didn't get zero votes in France. But it's not wrong to say she got 30%+ votes because she did. No one was forced to vote for her in the second round. It'd be like absolving half of the Trump voters for voting for him because they hadn't voted for him in the GOP primaries.

There are people who don't like Macron and people voted against him. So did she get zero , 20 or 30. How many voted for the Tories in the UK , I suspect more than a third on a clear anti-Eu and anti immigrant agenda.

 

[africanspur]

There are people who don't like Macron and people voted against him. So did she get zero , 20 or 30. How many voted for the Tories in the UK , I suspect more than a third on a clear anti-Eu and anti immigrant agenda.

Macron is a centrist. Le Pen and (especially) her dad are openly fascist. As I said, she and her dad have been getting an average of 1 in 6 voters for the last few elections and have won the last 2 European elections.

She got 21.5%, more than anyone other then Macron in the 1st round and then 33% in the 2nd round, when the whole of the political establishment in France turned against her in fear.

This is how such elections work in rounds. You don't generally get someone with 50-60% in the 1st round.

The Tories are also not even slightly comparable to the FN.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That is a very optimistic way of looking at it. She got low 20s because that is the nature of a multi candidate presidential election. The other, more disturbing way of looking at it of course is that she came 2nd in the 1st round as well, only 2.5% behind Macron, who got 24%. The fact she got to the 2nd round is the concerning part, not how many votes she got then.

All of the other candidates, other than Melenchon iirc, then urged their voters not to vote for her to stop a fascist essentially from becoming president of France.

I also don't see how you can say she is an object of ridicule in France, when the party came 3rd in 2012 with 18%, 4th with 10% in 2007 and 2nd with 17% in 2002 (all 1st round results). Her party came 1st in the 2014 and 2019 European elections. Has been slowly increasing the share of the parliament as well in the last 3 elections.

This isn't a niche party like the BNP, they are getting an average of 1 in every 6 voters in the French presidential elections. For an openly fascist party with a bow on top.

In what way do you think the UK is currently not living in the real world? Despite being a remainer myself, I've at least seen the government attempt to a) suggest some domestic policies and b) set out their EU policy. They are essentially trying to move on with things. Whether the agreements are signed off course is another thing.

This is in stark contrast to here, with constant, unhelpful wailing from all about what has happened in the past.

If Fillon hadn't cocked up, him and Macron would probably have made the 2nd round, reasons I've already given.
She s an object of ridicule because of her poor intelligence. Of course she will have a following amongst her core support. She's even had to change the name of the party.
Melenchon hates her even more than the rest.
UKIP and/or the Brexit Party have been openly fascist and have been rather successful in Euro elections and would have rather more seats in the UK parliament had it not been for the way the election system is in the UK.

Unless the UK wake up to the fact that the country is off the coast of mainland Europe and not off the coast of the USA, it's got big problems. All the reasons why it should not have voted to leave in 2016 are still the same in 2020 or 2021. Burying ones head in the sand and hoping for an impossibility is not going to change that.

 

[Full bodied red]

So far the only thing that has changed is that the UK has lost its vote.
Freedom to do what. You still have to abide by the same regulations to export to whichever country you export to, be it within the EU or Australia or wherever.

But isn 't that precisely what the millions of ' We want to stay in the Customs Union ' supporters were advoctaing and trying to block Brexit for ?

You make it sound as though this arrangement is stupid and people shouting for it obviously didn't know what they were shouting for.

On the other hand, it seems the stupidity might only be for another 12 months or so, not for ever and a day.

 

[Massive Spanner]

But isn 't that precisely what the millions of ' We want to stay in the Customs Union ' supporters were advoctaing and trying to block Brexit for ?

You make it sound as though this arrangement is stupid and people shouting for it obviously didn't know what they were shouting for.

On the other hand, it seems the stupidity might only be for another 12 months or so, not for ever and a day.

If it isn't clear to you from the last four years that this is in fact, very true, then you haven't been following Brexit close enough.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Macron is a centrist. Le Pen and (especially) her dad are openly fascist. As I said, she and her dad have been getting an average of 1 in 6 voters for the last few elections and have won the last 2 European elections.

She got 21.5%, more than anyone other then Macron in the 1st round and then 33% in the 2nd round, when the whole of the political establishment in France turned against her in fear.

This is how such elections work in rounds. You don't generally get someone with 50-60% in the 1st round.

The Tories are also not even slightly comparable to the FN.

Are you sure about that? Don't seem very different to me and the NF in the UK is not the same as the FN in France. 67% voted for Macron but then do 67% actually support Macron, you can't have it both ways.