SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

sammsky1

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A government under great strain. Laura Kuenssberg
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52670086
The exercise of power is rarely perfect. But this crisis has pushed governments everywhere to their limits.
The emergency here has demanded that the state extend its tentacles almost everywhere - managing the health crisis, propping up multiple industries, supporting the wages of nearly half of the working population and issuing instructions to us all on the way to live our lives.
The irony?
Despite the longer and longer list of tasks the government is carrying out, the number of people calling the shots is tiny.
One cabinet member told me: "Morale is difficult - there are a lot of people just not involved in making decisions."
Another admitted some feel "excluded" - the prime minister, and only a handful of others calling the shots. A senior official even suggested "more than half the Cabinet have no clue what's going on".
In practice, it's common for choices be dominated by a much smaller clutch of people - and in an emergency, one member told me, "you just can't make decisions fast by committee".
But there are nerves in some corners of Whitehall about the distance between the inner and outer Cabinet - ministers not in the inner loop have to defend decisions they are not playing a full part in making. The real physical distance doesn't help either - some stuck in their spare rooms staring at screens rather than arguing the toss in the cabinet room.
And however the decisions are actually being made, the government is still scrambling, two months in, to fix problems that were there from the start: grappling with care homes, providing enough testing, and enough protective gear.
Some of that, the UK has in common with other governments around the world.
But insiders identify the patchwork of structures that govern health and social care too.
"It's a mess," says one minister. ''The system simply wasn't ready to deal with what we have got," says a senior official.
There's now an obvious urge in Number 10 to change in order to cope, bringing in more outside experts, with government documents this week arguing for a "rapid re-engineering of government's structures".
Others caution against making change right in the middle of a crisis, but it seems clear the current system designed for peacetime is being stretched like never before.
Despite the internal struggles, and a sense sometimes the government is just overwhelmed by the challenge, levels of public support have been historically high.
As the second phase of the crisis begins, that may well start to change - multiple ministers admit the practical challenge of a long journey to a new normal, and the political challenge of growing hardship leading, inevitably, to a much more politically turbulent time.
The emergence of an opposition leader who a Conservative source joked was "designed for this moment", creates more challenge too.
And own goals, like the prime minister addressing the country on Sunday night, without the government able also to answer the public's immediate questions, don't help.
Problems with message matter, but they are often a sign of deeper issues inside.
This is still a government with a majority of 80, a government that has, compared to normal life in Whitehall, moved rapidly and comprehensively, to answer the calls of a crisis.
But it is also a government under great strain, trying to keep up with a situation that its structures were never designed to handle, ministers contemplating a political situation that is likely to only become more testing for them.
 
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ManUArfa

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A government under great strain. Laura Kuenssberg
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52670086
The exercise of power is rarely perfect. But this crisis has pushed governments everywhere to their limits.
The emergency here has demanded that the state extend its tentacles almost everywhere - managing the health crisis, propping up multiple industries, supporting the wages of nearly half of the working population and issuing instructions to us all on the way to live our lives.
The irony?
Despite the longer and longer list of tasks the government is carrying out, the number of people calling the shots is tiny.
One cabinet member told me: "Morale is difficult - there are a lot of people just not involved in making decisions."
Another admitted some feel "excluded" - the prime minister, and only a handful of others calling the shots. A senior official even suggested "more than half the Cabinet have no clue what's going on".
In practice, it's common for choices be dominated by a much smaller clutch of people - and in an emergency, one member told me, "you just can't make decisions fast by committee".
But there are nerves in some corners of Whitehall about the distance between the inner and outer Cabinet - ministers not in the inner loop have to defend decisions they are not playing a full part in making. The real physical distance doesn't help either - some stuck in their spare rooms staring at screens rather than arguing the toss in the cabinet room.
And however the decisions are actually being made, the government is still scrambling, two months in, to fix problems that were there from the start: grappling with care homes, providing enough testing, and enough protective gear.
Some of that, the UK has in common with other governments around the world.
But insiders identify the patchwork of structures that govern health and social care too.
"It's a mess," says one minister. ''The system simply wasn't ready to deal with what we have got," says a senior official.
There's now an obvious urge in Number 10 to change in order to cope, bringing in more outside experts, with government documents this week arguing for a "rapid re-engineering of government's structures".
Others caution against making change right in the middle of a crisis, but it seems clear the current system designed for peacetime is being stretched like never before.
Despite the internal struggles, and a sense sometimes the government is just overwhelmed by the challenge, levels of public support have been historically high.
As the second phase of the crisis begins, that may well start to change - multiple ministers admit the practical challenge of a long journey to a new normal, and the political challenge of growing hardship leading, inevitably, to a much more politically turbulent time.
The emergence of an opposition leader who a Conservative source joked was "designed for this moment", creates more challenge too.
And own goals, like the prime minister addressing the country on Sunday night, without the government able also to answer the public's immediate questions, don't help.
Problems with message matter, but they are often a sign of deeper issues inside.
This is still a government with a majority of 80, a government that has, compared to normal life in Whitehall, moved rapidly and comprehensively, to answer the calls of a crisis.
But it is also a government under great strain, trying to keep up with a situation that its structures were never designed to handle, ministers contemplating a political situation that is likely to only become more testing for them.
Thank god we didn't end up with the alternative of a hung parliament under you know who is all I can say. All I see night after night with each briefing is every minister talking sense and a unified message coming from each one that is in line with the scientists and medics. Mistakes may have been made along the way by every government but this pandemic represents global mayhem. I see lessons being learned as we find out more, especially in the West.
 
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ManUArfa

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That really was bizarre.

'Can we have a plan please?'
'No, now is not the time'
'Can we discuss the next stage?'
'No, it's too early'
...
'Okay, here's our half-assed plan, it starts in the morning, go!'

I remember a time when gross incompetence in government normally lead to a resignation in shame. Now such levels of incompetence come so thick and fast, we're on to the next example of buffoonery before anyone gets a chance to be properly grilled on it.
Weren't these the firms that could have been working anyway?

I am disappointed that businesses haven't been preparing for social distancing when lockdown eases, as well as transport providers.

Everybody seems to want to live in a state where the government controls our every move. Not me.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Everybody seems to want to live in a state where the government controls our every move. Not me.
The primary function of a government is to serve the electorate, not throw them to the wolves and businesses that will put profit above personal safety by delivering a half baked plan that puts people's livelihoods in jeopardy through sheer incompetence.

Businesses can plan and prepare all they want but you can't just implement protocols and procedures at the drop of a hat. That's lazy management thinking that assumes anything is possible at short notice.
 

Wibble

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Thank god we didn't end up with the alternative of a hung parliament under you know who is all I can say. All I see night after night with each briefing is every minister talking sense and a unified message coming from each one that is in line with the scientists and medics. Mistakes may have been made along the way by every government but this pandemic represents global mayhem. I see lessons being learned as we find out more, especially in the West.
Which country are you talking about? Not the UK surely? The messaging has been chaotic, contradictory and confusing.
 

ManUArfa

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It does suck. And its being really something that needs to be a part of the national and global conversation about COVID
The only metric currently really being used to debate restrictive measures is death rate and whether its an over and under-reaction.

Which is why I find case fatality rate to be simply one part of the wider picture when discussing this disease.

Any herd immunity like strategy would have to take into account that we would be exposing a significant proportion of the population to risks of pulmonary emobolism, strokes, myocarditis, cardiomyopathies, kidney complications, limb venous thrombosis (with potential amputation risks in extreme), possibly irreversible lung damage, intubation complications, tracheostomy complications, increased heart attack risks, vasculitis-like rashes in adults and children , neurological complication, psychological complications, memory and cognitive deficits if they recover from delirium. That is simply not the case when thinking of the flu.

Statisticians are offering their 2 pence on risks of dying but not many are commenting on the risks of the above in those hospitalised who make it out alive and risks to economies if we see a significant percentage of our workforce struck down with the potentially debilitating conditions listed above in short and long term.
Are you saying all of those complications are not possible in a flu pandemic?
 

Wibble

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Wibble

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Are you saying all of those complications are not possible in a flu pandemic?
The effects of Coronavirus are far more widespread and severe than the flu. Coronavirus is not just a respiratory disease as flu primarily is. In severely affected patients almost the whole body can be affected including the brain. And recovery is often not complete and/or takes far far longer.
 

ManUArfa

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The primary function of a government is to serve the electorate, not throw them to the wolves and businesses that will put profit above personal safety by delivering a half baked plan that puts people's livelihoods in jeopardy through sheer incompetence.

Businesses can plan and prepare all they want but you can't just implement protocols and procedures at the drop of a hat. That's lazy management thinking that assumes anything is possible at short notice.
The science is being followed with the recent move towards phase 3 and the messages are simple.

These days there are too many self-entitled folk who don't want to take responsibility for themselves and whose view of the world is based on what they read, rather than the reality.
 

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Thank god we didn't end up with the alternative of a hung parliament under you know who is all I can say. All I see night after night with each briefing is every minister talking sense and a unified message coming from each one that is in line with the scientists and medics. Mistakes may have been made along the way by every government but this pandemic represents global mayhem. I see lessons being learned as we find out more, especially in the West.
I disagree even if just for one reason - PPE.

By the UK government's own admission, they either:
- missed / ignored several emails to join an EU purchase scheme.
- chose not to join the scheme for political reasons.

It's looking like lack of PPE has had a large impact on the spread, especially in care homes.
I think in a hung parliament the government wouldn't have their mandate to gamble with the lives of thousands of people, and the PPE situation would be less severe. Even if it was just additional oversight.
 

ManUArfa

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The effects of Coronavirus are far more widespread and severe than the flu. Coronavirus is not just a respiratory disease as flu primarily is. In severely affected patients almost the whole body can be affected including the brain. And recovery is often not complete and/or takes far far longer.
You're not answering the question posed and it was aimed at Wolverine.

I didn't say they were identical conditions. Don't forget that flu has vaccinations (not 100% successful mind) and proven treatments (Tamiflu)
 

Wibble

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You're not answering the question posed and it was aimed at Wolverine.

I didn't say they were identical conditions. Don't forget that flu has vaccinations (not 100% successful mind) and proven treatments (Tamiflu)
I was specifically addressing that the effects of flue and coronavirus are not the same. You were saying or implying they were the Same.

And this may come as a shock to you but you don't get to decided who responds to a post in this forum.
 

ManUArfa

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I disagree even if just for one reason - PPE.

By the UK government's own admission, they either:
- missed / ignored several emails to join an EU purchase scheme.
- chose not to join the scheme for political reasons.

It's looking like lack of PPE has had a large impact on the spread, especially in care homes.
I think in a hung parliament the government wouldn't have their mandate to gamble with the lives of thousands of people, and the PPE situation would be less severe. Even if it was just additional oversight.
The government has a mandate to gamble with people's lives?
 

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I've seen that article. Whilst its arguable the BBC are just reporting the WHO's comments it doesn't do much for people's mental health.

We may not come up with a vaccine but treatments will most likely improve over time as we know more about it. It may also mutate favourably, which (to the limited extent I understand this) is common with viruses of this type. There are lots of viruses we don't have a vaccine for and we live normal lives.

The implication of these articles seems to be that we'll have to have a "new normal", indefinitely. I personally don't believe that will be the case in the long term. The Virus is not as deadly as we feared it would be. It is not particularly dangerous for the vast majority of the population. If you make those comments some suggest you're heartless or cruel but it is a fact.

The idea that people will exist without socialising with friends, attending live sport, concerts, bars and restaurants is madness. Even the suggestion that the older generations will accept being "shielded" - i.e. locked up and unable to spend their retirement years (which they have worked hard to be able to enjoy) without going on holiday or spending time with family and friends is a nonsense. People will just not accept it, long term.

People do those things above because that's what it means to live. Humans are social animals and eventually we'll accept the risk and get on with it, as we do every day when the vast majority of people in western society.
Exactly, people will rather take what is a small risk all told (as horrific as the death number looks in isolation it really isn't that many in the context of the overall population) than just merely exist, infact I'm not sure I'd want to live just to merely exist, which is pretty much what we're all doing at this point.
 

ManUArfa

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I was specifically addressing that the effects of flue and coronavirus are not the same. You were saying or implying they were the Same.

And this may come as a shock to you but you don't get to decided who responds to a post in this forum.
No I wasn't implying they were the same at all. The flu can result in ventilation and its associated complications; as well as multi organ failure. Reply by all means but factual responses are preferred to your rhetoric and question twisting.
 

RK

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The government has a mandate to gamble with people's lives?
Not really sure why that's the part you picked up on. Maybe because the substance of the post is hard to argue with.
To clarify just in case, I was being facetious. The government have a recent mandate to avoid collaboration with the continent and generally do things 'the British way', even if it disagrees with global consensus. I think we've seen the shortcomings of that ideology specifically with PPE. Either that or they're simply inept which would probably be mitigated by a hung parliament.
 

Arruda

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No I wasn't implying they were the same at all. The flu can result in ventilation and its associated complications; as well as multi organ failure. Reply by all means but factual responses are preferred to your rhetoric and question twisting.
I'm not an expert on flu and all it's complications, but I think a lot of those complications @Wolverine has mentioned are (or might be) specific for the coronavírus infection. The ones related to coagulopathies, myocarditis and vasculites have been mentioned a lot. You're right that the ICU associated ones are also an issue in flu pandemics.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Yeah it was weird...and it's hardly been made clear exactly who should go back to work either. Our place is still deserted apart from the few of us who have to come in or are doing volunteer work. Nothing is getting done because "can work from home" and people actually doing their jobs when they're sat at home are a million miles from the same thing. It's got to a point where it is creating significant problems with services that are actually quite important...but nothing is going to change when the advice is so all over the place and there's no data being supplied to back anything up.

They're going down the route of ending up having to take furlough away to force employees to drag their workers back in, which isn't exactly going to end well.

Don't get what's wrong with saying "these sectors should start to return to work from this date" and staggering it in order of importance...In fact I can't figure out why this wouldn't be a completely sensible idea.

People aren't going to listen unless they're given at least some basis to trust the advice.
Return to work by sector, with most vital sectors returning first would have made sense.

I find im more productive working from home but I did that once a week anyway. I guess it depends on job type.
 

Fluctuation0161

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That really was bizarre.

'Can we have a plan please?'
'No, now is not the time'
'Can we discuss the next stage?'
'No, it's too early'
...
'Okay, here's our half-assed plan, it starts in the morning, go!'

I remember a time when gross incompetence in government normally lead to a resignation in shame. Now such levels of incompetence come so thick and fast, we're on to the next example of buffoonery before anyone gets a chance to be properly grilled on it.
We have reached new levels of incompetence.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Or perhaps the other options were far more terryfying? For what its worth brexit only could happen once they were re elected. The 3 years or so prior to the election were a shamefull story of politicians from all parties willfully ignoring and delaying at all costs the vote of the people.....

That's all for another thread no doubt it will be pointed out.
Its a shame that some of the very good discussions in this thread have been clouded by obvious political bias and agenda.
This pandemic is without doubt the largest global event so far in my lifetime. Its fascinating and terryfying at the same time. My livelihood, which i have worked at for 25 yrs is at a genuine point of perhaps not being salvageable. I dont blame the tories for this as i see people dealing with loss at every level in almost every country far greater than mine. There are failings in our country for sure. Largest in my mind are the horrendous levelsof death in care homes, given that it was widely reported in other countries prior to it happening here.
Sadly, yet again there have been huge failings globaly. By that i mean communication and collaboration between countries.
China suppressing information initially ( at the very least) then protecting its interests by allowing people out but not in. The eu ignoring pleas for help from member states for financial and other help. Countries denying the virus would affect them ( trump and Brazil spring to mind)
People seem mainly to be 'blaming' and looking for scapegoats, fuelled by clickbait and a rabid press and inaccurate reporting, fuelling fear at the cost of truth.
I think this virus could be genuinly a turning point for the future. If countries can accept that global communications and integrity is not a sign of weakness, if a global financial agreement is put in place to compensate countries for being honest and pro active then maybe this sort of shit storm can be avoided in the future.
I think most of us here have seen the numbers, eye-watering numbers of deaths and financially as well, but also mainly we have looked at these on a country by country basis, whos doing better or worse than italy, spain, uk, Sweden etc. When will our, or their lockdown end.
Tragically there appears to have been very little pro active debate on here or globally about how to minimise loss of life or econonically. Ive not seen any reporting of heads of different nations acting as a group to share resources and knowledge globally and this is a shame. Things like that would have such a positive effect i think, rather than the negative poison we are fed by the press.

Went off on a tangent there and not having a go at you wibbs in particular but party politics is in my mind largely irrelevant right now.
Of course there are multiple factors which contribute to this global pandemics level of severity.

On a national level, there is no doubt that the UK government's incompetence will prove to have been a serious contributor.
 

ManUArfa

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I'm not an expert on flu and all it's complications, but I think a lot of those complications @Wolverine has mentioned are (or might be) specific for the coronavírus infection. The ones related to coagulopathies, myocarditis and vasculites have been mentioned a lot. You're right that the ICU associated ones are also an issue in flu pandemics.

https://www.google.com/search?q=inf...motorola-rev2&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?safe=...C4xLjUtMZgBAKABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

https://www.google.com/search?safe=...C40LjAuMZgBAKABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
 

ManUArfa

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Not really sure why that's the part you picked up on. Maybe because the substance of the post is hard to argue with.
To clarify just in case, I was being facetious. The government have a recent mandate to avoid collaboration with the continent and generally do things 'the British way', even if it disagrees with global consensus. I think we've seen the shortcomings of that ideology specifically with PPE. Either that or they're simply inept which would probably be mitigated by a hung parliament.
OK I'll pick up on another part.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...heme-what-is-the-EU-PPE-scheme-UK-opt-out/amp

This all depends on what you choose to read and believe to suit your own agenda.
 

Wumminator

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OK I'll pick up on another part.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...heme-what-is-the-EU-PPE-scheme-UK-opt-out/amp

This all depends on what you choose to read and believe to suit your own agenda.
No it is not.

you made it very clear with your “thank god Corbyn isn’t in power” post that you had already made up your mind.
The government have broken promises (100k tests by the end of April) , ignored scientific advice (Boris telling everyone to shake hands the day he’d been told that could spread the disease) and we not have a horrendous death record based on early inactivity. FFS, they’ve just stopped putting up the death comparisons with other countries because it is now evident how badly we have done.

“People should have common sense” is a remarkably bad take from now as well, being parroted by Tories all over the web. Was it common sense to tell people to go back to work Sunday night and then wait till 2pm the next day to tell them they should probably wear masks? If Boris’ words were so clear,why did many government officials get the message wrong the next day on breakfast?

FFS, they told firms they could open if they followed the rules in a social distancing document before they published the document.
 

RoadTrip

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The irony of @ManUArfa complaining how politicised this has become yet alas, is posting with clear bias and purpose to vindicate the job Boris and co. have done.

It’s possible to be accepting that mistakes were to some extend inevitable given the lack of past experience of something like this, yet at the same time be cognisant that there were mistakes which regardless shouldn’t have been made.
 

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OK I'll pick up on another part.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...heme-what-is-the-EU-PPE-scheme-UK-opt-out/amp

This all depends on what you choose to read and believe to suit your own agenda.
I mean... from the article you have linked:

The Prime Minister's spokesperson had initially said the Government had not taken part because the UK was “no longer a member [of the EU]” and was “making our own efforts” but later said the UK missed the deadline because it did not receive an invitation from the European Commission in time.

and

Foreign Office Permanent Under-Secretary Sir Simon McDonald told the Foreign Affairs committee that ministers were briefed about opportunities but decided not to take part.

He said: "It was a political decision."
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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I get that, but I wouldn't put it past the government silencing/removing the history of people. Look at the case of Bob Lazar for example, they removed his affiliation/records very quickly.
If you think Bob Lazar was legit, and debunked conspiracy theories on Covid are worth pursuing, you’re pushing shit uphill in this thread.

Use the conspiracy thread for crazy people.
 

Arruda

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Sorry for the others who I fogot.

I think it has been reported that this might be an issue but a very minor one in the scheme of things. This study suggests there may be more to it in some cases.
I take 1000iU of vit D every day because of some research at my old university:


They haven’t untangled correlation and causation yet but it’s one of those things with no downside, so feck it.
 
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Arruda

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News just in from North Korea....

Coronavirus: Doctors 'told not to discuss PPE shortages'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52671814

NHS managers, total shower of cnuts in my experience. 99% of them could be sacked tomorrow and nobody would notice.
Same news from the US, in fact harsher, there they were just threatened with being fired.

Meanwhile, in the west, half the people buy into fake news of doctors being arrested in China.