Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[Maticmaker]

What many people forget is that conventional street protests v police control operations are always going to be confrontational on some level and have a flash-point(s) and those flash points will get more in-depth reporting in the press, rather than what was being protested. Generally the Police (only doing their job) will get most public sympathy, this is simply a fact of life.

The protests that last longest in the memory are usually ones where one side or the other is seen to have scored some kind of moral/tactical victory. In my lifetime the 'Flying Pickets' deployed by the Miners in the early days of the first miners strike, is one such incident, the 'Kettling' of protestors by Police in London street protests a few years ago, are another.

The potential for 'Black Lives Matter' protests to enter this protest 'hall of fame' is, the silent, kneeling (taking the knee) of protestors, whilst observing space/distancing requirements in front of massed police lines, a very powerful image and as we all know a picture paints a thousand words, in this case in the protestors favour; whereas the opposite is true of the scenes of the destruction of the statue (no matter how loathsome) in Bristol,...guess which got most of the headlines and probably live longest in the memory?

 

[Dumbstar]

Incredible result with the decision by the Minneapolis city council. It just shows that protesting works. Heartening to see so many people of different backgrounds in the streets.

Yes, it does. And can I add I'm proud of Americans right now? Been a while since I could say that. Proud of other nations protestors too obviously. But right now: USA, USA.

 

[nimic]

In case this hasn't been posted yet:

 

[Sky1981]

I have a very workable solution

1. Determine how much they paid for legal fee and compensation last year
2. Make that as benchmark, anything less than that would go to the cops' pocket
3. Anything more than that would be cut from their pention fund (or their OT or whatever)

Nothing motivates them more than money. It'll also motivates their teammates to hold their mates back, since any stupid shit they do is a money lost. Collective policing

 

[Garethw]

Yes. Lets deport citizens we don't agree with. Good idea.

I didn’t say deport them. I said if you hate this country enough to burn its flag, then leave!

 

[Garethw]

As angry as I am about people trying to literally set the Cenotaph and all that it represents on fire - and those who think it's an irrelevance. This is also a brutal reaction, dunno if your upset, trolling, or just wrong but wise up.

Defacing war memorials is not the way to sort it, but there is an issue. Telling people that are born here to leave is not going to be part of the solution.

I'd like to be done with this thread, I've tried several times, yet here I am again. I will never in a million years agree with some of the responses sent to me tonight, but nor do I support the actions of Trump's warped version of America. Maybe tomorrow il wise up and go stalk Sancho instead of wasting my breath here.

I wasn’t telling anybody that was born here that they must leave. I was saying that if you hate this country that much go live somewhere else.
That’s what I’d do myself in that situation. Why stay somewhere you hate enough to burn its flag?

There is a big problem around the whole world regarding racism and it does need to be sorted out. I stand shoulder to shoulder with my black brothers and sisters On this. But the actions of the few are diminishing the actions of the many peaceful protesters that are out there.

 

[Smores]

I didn’t say deport them. I said if you hate this country enough to burn its flag, then leave!

Out of interest, why does someone burning a flag anger you in the slightest?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

What the hell is wrong with these police? This is beyond inhumane.

You can criticise the police in the UK, but they police by consent and try and work with the community - the mentality over there is that they are the last line of defence before anarchy.

 

[RedPed]

I didn’t say deport them. I said if you hate this country enough to burn its flag, then leave!

What the feck is the matter with people and fecking flags??

 

[Carolina Red]

if you hate this country enough to burn its flag, then leave!

The argument of Trump supporters. Nice.

 

[oates]

What the feck is the matter with people and fecking flags??

What is the message intended when someone sets a flag on fire?

 

[RedPed]

What is the message intended when someone sets a flag on fire?

I couldn't care less. It does not diminish their right as a citizen to live in that country. They're not blowing people up or shooting people in the street. They're no worse than the far right extremists who preach hate. If these extremsts don't like other people living in the country who have just as much a right to be there and they disrespect the laws of the land which is just as important as the flag, they should fecking leave. Get a fecking grip.

 

[oates]

I couldn't care less. It does not diminish their right as a citizen to live in that country. They're not blowing people up or shooting people in the street. They're no worse than the far right extremists who preach hate. If these extremsts don't like other people living in the country who have just as much a right to be there and they disrespect the laws of the land which is just as important as the flag, they should fecking leave. Get a fecking grip.

OK. I'm not saying that I'd have the same response either but we both know that the message is at least in some way derogatory and intended as an insult designed to evince a response in other people.

Perhaps we shouldn't be completely surprised when some people are affected by that message should we? Might not be the right response but one was called for.

 

[Garethw]

Out of interest, why does someone burning a flag anger you in the slightest?

It’s what it symbolises. Basically burning the whole country down.

It’s the white supremacy flags and KKK flags that should be being burnt.

The UK is not a racist country. It’s not.

It has its element of racist scum like everywhere else, but it is not Universally racist.

If you want examples of racism you only need look to countries like China.

We have work to do here, but The UK is not fecking comparable to actual racist countries.

 

[villain]

Literally textbook

 

[SilentWitness]

It’s what it symbolises. Basically burning the whole country down.

It’s the white supremacy flags and KKK flags that should be being burnt.

The UK is not a racist country. It’s not.

It doesn't symbolise that. It symbolises burning down what that country represents in this moment in time which is a country that is drowning in systemic racism. When people say that the UK is a racist country they aren't talking about the individuals within the society, they are talking about the system itself and what it's built on and I'm sorry that it hurts your feelings but we are a country that at it's core still represents that because we haven't broken down those racial boundaries and oppressions.

Also, why should they leave the country? It is as much their country as it is yours or mine. Also where should they go? A lot of the world is facing similar issues because of...guess what? The British Empire.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Whatever the relevance and magnitude of burning a flag or spray-painting the cenotaph.....it is absolutely the wrong way to bring people on to your way of thinking. It has harmed the cause, not helped it

 

[Garethw]

so because of a small minority, people shouldn’t protest racial injustice?
This argument is the equivalent of saying that black lives don’t matter because black people kill each other too.

Where did I say that people shouldn’t protest?? Jesus fecking Christ.

So you don’t see the irony in Black Lives Matters protestors beating up black police officers and potentially killing them in the process? Innocent officers just doing their jobs!

it’s plain to see that these peaceful protests have been hijacked by groups of absolute scum that are only interested in violence. They don’t give a shit about BLM.

But of course you aren’t allowed to say that on here because views are so far left that the actions of rioting scumbags (Not genuine BLM protestors) are justified because it’s associated with the protests. Any counter argument to that and you are a racist.

 

[RedPed]

OK. I'm not saying that I'd have the same response either but we both know that the message is at least in some way derogatory and intended as an insult designed to evince a response in other people.

Perhaps we shouldn't be completely surprised when some people are affected by that message should we? Might not be the right response but one was called for.

Why is it derogatory? I don't have time for the national anthem and am pretty indifferent to all of this flag stuff but it does not mean I hate my country. It is mainly nationalists and closet racists who probably get those visceral emotions aroused within themselves when they see shit like that happening. People also use the flag to promote racism so yeah you can use whatever symbolisms you like to evoke reactions in other people.

 

[Dan_F]

Seeing so many arguments saying are we going to tear down the pyramids, or about the destruction of ancient sites in Syria by IS.

Can people not see the difference between historical artefacts/sites, and a statue put up barely 100 years ago.

 

[Garethw]

It doesn't symbolise that. It symbolises burning down what that country represents in this moment in time which is a country that is drowning in systemic racism. When people say that the UK is a racist country they aren't talking about the individuals within the society, they are talking about the system itself and what it's built on and I'm sorry that it hurts your feelings but we are a country that at it's core still represents that because we haven't broken down those racial boundaries and oppressions.

Also, why should they leave the country? It is as much their country as it is yours or mine. Also where should they go? A lot of the world is facing similar issues because of...guess what? The British Empire.

Again, I never said it wasn’t their country for feck sake. I said that if you hate this country so much then leave. I was born here and if I hated this country that much I’d emigrate. Why stay somewhere you hate?

 

[oates]

Why is it derogatory? I don't have time for the national anthem and am pretty indifferent to all of this flag stuff but it does not mean I hate my country. It is mainly nationalists and closet racists who probably get those visceral emotions aroused within themselves when they see shit like that happening. People also use the flag to promote racism so yeah you can use whatever symbolisms you like to evoke reactions in other people.

I feel, reading your response that we are going to find it difficult to agree on the basic reasons why anyone would set light to a country's flag. Best to stop proceedings here I feel.

 

[SteveJ]

Good god, you'd think that the authorities past and present had given us the world on a silver platter the way some of us cling to a bloodied flag and around elevated statues of the undeservedly renowned.

Still, we've always got the Unknown Soldier as a sort of throwaway gesture of begrudging false thanks from the elite...mustn't grumble.

 

[RedPed]

It’s what it symbolises. Basically burning the whole country down.

It’s the white supremacy flags and KKK flags that should be being burnt.

The UK is not a racist country. It’s not.

It has its element of racist scum like everywhere else, but it is not Universally racist.

If you want examples of racism you only need look to countries like China.

We have work to do here, but The UK is not fecking comparable to actual racist countries.

People use the flag to promote racism as well don't forget. And you are conflating racist people with racist systems. Yeah society at large may not be 'overtly' racist but when the systems and laws in place disadvantage sections of the community, you cannot say it is not racist. Are you saying that you have never experienced racism?

 

[That'sHernandez]

In case this hasn't been posted yet:

Got a version available in the uk?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I didn’t say deport them. I said if you hate this country enough to burn its flag, then leave!

It’s a fcuking flag. You can buy toilet paper with Union Jacks on it. Pick a different hill to die on.

 

[Sky1981]

It’s what it symbolises. Basically burning the whole country down.

It’s the white supremacy flags and KKK flags that should be being burnt.

The UK is not a racist country. It’s not.

It has its element of racist scum like everywhere else, but it is not Universally racist.

If you want examples of racism you only need look to countries like China.

We have work to do here, but The UK is not fecking comparable to actual racist countries.

Stop taking china to every debate. The fact that you casually mentioned china in everything is racist man.

Chinese is a race too you know

 

[oates]

It doesn't symbolise that. It symbolises burning down what that country represents in this moment in time which is a country that is drowning in systemic racism. When people say that the UK is a racist country they aren't talking about the individuals within the society, they are talking about the system itself and what it's built on and I'm sorry that it hurts your feelings but we are a country that at it's core still represents that because we haven't broken down those racial boundaries and oppressions.

Also, why should they leave the country? It is as much their country as it is yours or mine. Also where should they go? A lot of the world is facing similar issues because of...guess what? The British Empire.

I appreciate your post and that burning a flag can be that nuanced but it isn't understood by everyone in that manner and isn't always going to be perceived like that.

Still wrong to suggest someone leave the country but surely we'd want to talk with someone with those feelings because the flag doesn't necessarily mean that same thing to everyone. My concern is that with the racists targeted the movement will find themselves ending up fighting the wrong people.

 

[SilentWitness]

Again, I never said it wasn’t their country for feck sake. I said that if you hate this country so much then leave. I was born here and if I hated this country that much I’d emigrate. Why stay somewhere you hate?

Maybe because their family is here, friends are here, they have a job that they enjoy here or they overall enjoy where they live aside from some things that everyone should want to change and omitt from society. Burning the flag or speaking out about disliking current issues in UK politics/socioeconomics doesn't necessarily mean you hate where you live, rather you hate those current systems. Maybe they would rather we try and change that, move forward and make it better rather than glorify what it currently is. Maybe burning the flag to them or speaking out is them 'burning' that system that is oppressive to them.

 

[RedPed]

I feel, reading your response that we are going to find it difficult to agree on the basic reasons why anyone would set light to a country's flag. Best to stop proceedings here I feel.

I agree that burning a flag is a shitty thing to do but I'm not going to judge someone for it as they will have their reasons for doing so just as how rampaging through the streets of America and burning buildings may be seen as a shitty thing to do.

 

[fergies coat]

Are Asians included in this black lives matter? They probably get racism more than anyone in the UK.

 

[P-Nut]

Again, I never said it wasn’t their country for feck sake. I said that if you hate this country so much then leave. I was born here and if I hated this country that much I’d emigrate. Why stay somewhere you hate?

Have you not noticed that these protests are going on pretty much worldwide? Which country would you suggest black people move to where there isn't racism? And is that how you usually solve problems?

I don't think anyone living hear actually hates the country, but rather hates some of the concepts and ideals the country is built on, and rather than running away from that would like to see it changed. Burning the flag (whilst not something I agree with) is a powerful message, that in the end basically boils down to saying I'm not happy with the way things are.

 

[oates]

I agree that burning a flag is a shitty thing to do but I'm not going to judge someone for it as they will have their reasons for doing so just as how rampaging through the streets of America and burning buildings may be seen as a shitty thing to do.

I think it is how it is understood by people not understanding that nuance that could be the problem.

 

[nimic]

Got a version available in the uk?

I didn't realize it wasn't available there. I can't find anything immediately, someone will probably post a mirror when this is posted to Reddit (already has some places).

 

[That'sHernandez]

Are Asians included in this black lives matter? They probably get racism more than anyone in the UK.

Are you going to start asking questions in good faith?

It’s a movement for equality for all.

 

[Cascarino]

I have boxers with the Welsh flag in them and I don’t always shake well so it has stains. If I ever got far enough for someone to see them I imagine they’d be horrified at my blatant disrespect to the red dragon

 

[RedPed]

I think it is how it is understood by people not understanding that nuance that could be the problem.

I think the point I was trying to make was what exactly has it got to do with them anyway?

 

[fergies coat]

Are you going to start asking questions in good faith?

It’s a movement for equality for all.

Just asking. The slogan is black lives matter. Not equality for all.

 

[Grinner]

Flags and nationalism need to go away really. I've always been a fan of Star Trek where we're all just from Earth. But people do need an identity, we're on a football forum after all....that's all about identity and belonging to a group.

 

[oates]

I think the point I was trying to make was what exactly has it got to do with them anyway?

I think the protests have gained a lot of sympathy from most ordinary people who at present support the BLM movement. I don't think we are completely aware of the aims from this protest but broadly speaking to stop the police brutality and to end racism etc etc. I don't think it will help to lose that support.