It is tiring pretending that there is not a right way to 'support' a club - there absolutely is

[Ballache]

The issue here is not criticism. We all want the same thing here, and that's for the club to succeed and become successful on the pitch again. The problem with this forum is that, for some posters, being right is the most important part.
Like if I've made up my mind about a player, I will criticize said player even when he performs (see VNL and Fred threads).
I can be critical of Ole (which I am, and will still be until proven otherwise) but him succeeding here will be the best piece of humble pie I have ever eaten!

 

[Squaaaad]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eve...-mourinho-could-be-coming-to-fruition.433289/

October 2017 you posted that thread so were you supporting the team properly then?

 

[Wumminator]

@Wumminator stop being such a top red, you absolute hypocrite. This thread is hardly a positive one here. You clearly aren't getting that much joy if you are creating this thread either. It's a football forum and maybe most are over critical at times, doesn't mean you're guidelines are the way to be a true fan. This is a place to discuss and dissect the game, there are loads of opinions I disagree on. Even yours, that doesn't mean I'm right. I'm just calling someone out that talk's down to the entire forum.

By the sounds of it, you would like RAWK, closed threads when they don't like the narrative. Posters being banned when they question the team. Fans are entitled to question things at the club. How far they can go is a separate matter. If you don't like performance threads after games, I suggest you don't read them.
I personally can't stand your mindset of supporting a team. The fan that refuses to criticize when things are a mess. That Moyes could have turned it around, LVG's football wasn't that bad, Jose would take us back to the top eventually. The Glazers aren't to blame and support the club and keep buying merchandise. It's sheep mentality, outdated and not progressive. I love United but there are still huge concerns here. You can love your club but not be happy of some aspects of it. A world of Ty's from AFTV is my nightmare. It kills any conversation and discussion of football, in my opinion.

You top reds are the worst, you really are. This is how you support the team, who the feck do you think you are?

RAWK absolutely has a better level of quality than RedCafe.

I think I'm someone who goes the matches, loves United and promotes positivity with realistic expectations.

How many more people are going to have to say they stopped visiting the forum because of all the shit negativity before people realise this isn't a 'both sides' argument.

 

[Lennon7]

I agree with this. New player should be given free pass in first season.
Always love it when local lads performed well.

Do agree with this. It’s hilarious that VdB for example gets so much stick.

 

[Lentwood]

There are people who genuinely support football teams and then there are your “NuFootball” fans who mostly have zero clue what they are watching (or even real interest) but who want to “fit in” because following a football team is just “what blokes do”

The latter are largely more interested in moaning on the Internet and taking part in “hilarious” banter with rival fans on social media. They are the people gloating in the office/playground and making an insufferable t**t of themselves when their team has any modicum of success and they are also the ones wailing and gnashing their teeth when their team gets beat because they’re about to get back what they dished out from all the other NuFootball ladz.

See any fan who watches Soccer AM past the age of 16, any fan who has ever used the term “Loserpool” or “Shitteh”, any fan who likes/retweets content posted by Paddy Power and any fan who turns up to play football once in a blue moon in pristine kit.

It wouldn’t bother me but then these people can be detrimental to the club, because occasionally dopey owners believe that their louder, shoutier, whinier opinions represent the rest of the fanbase and make stupid decisions

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eve...-mourinho-could-be-coming-to-fruition.433289/

October 2017 you posted that thread so were you supporting the team properly then?

I just checked, we were second then, 3 points behind City, still in the CL and finished the season in second.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

How about we have the Caf equivalent of The Purge?

Every year, there's a thread opened for a week and every poster votes for one poster ... top.3 are binned.

(t.i.c. obviously)

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I just checked, we were second then, 3 points behind City, still in the CL and finished the season in second.

Top red gonna top red. Jose didn’t have “United DNA” & all that.

“Hard work, passion, desire, local lads, direct football, no flair, British core, scapegoat the foreign lads” all of that. It’s the top red way.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I've seen people say Moyes needed more time, some people felt aggrieved LVG was sacked, most thought Mou wasn't backed, many think Ole isn't going to succeed. The caf is no different to every day life, you can't tell people how to think or how to communicate. United is a huge club, there are thousands of fans on redcafe, it's logical some are absolute tools but it's also logical some just think completely differently to you.

Use the 'ignore' button if it riles you up, try to change their mind if you feel strongly about something or see their viewpoint.

 

[Wumminator]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eve...-mourinho-could-be-coming-to-fruition.433289/

October 2017 you posted that thread so were you supporting the team properly then?

Yes. I mean... for evidence... read that thread.

 

[R'hllor]

Its crazy how people are full of shit

 

[Stacks]

 

[Wumminator]

There are people who genuinely support football teams and then there are your “NuFootball” fans who mostly have zero clue what they are watching (or even real interest) but who want to “fit in” because following a football team is just “what blokes do”

The latter are largely more interested in moaning on the Internet and taking part in “hilarious” banter with rival fans on social media. They are the people gloating in the office/playground and making an insufferable t**t of themselves when their team has any modicum of success and they are also the ones wailing and gnashing their teeth when their team gets beat because they’re about to get back what they dished out from all the other NuFootball ladz.

See any fan who watches Soccer AM past the age of 16, any fan who has ever used the term “Loserpool” or “Shitteh”, any fan who likes/retweets content posted by Paddy Power and any fan who turns up to play football once in a blue moon in pristine kit.

It wouldn’t bother me but then these people can be detrimental to the club, because occasionally dopey owners believe that their louder, shoutier, whinier opinions represent the rest of the fanbase and make stupid decisions

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

 

[Wumminator]

Top red gonna top red. Jose didn’t have “United DNA” & all that.

Isn't this exactly what Bobby Charlton thought? Isn't this exactly what was proven to be true? Didn't we see why Mourinho wasn't a man befitting our football club?

I've yet to see anyone post a thread where I've proven myself a hypocrite. The example so far is where I made a thread criticising someone who was playing poor football, criticising the way the United manager was openly courting other jobs and criticising a manager who didn't play youth.

If you look at that and think 'He didn't properly know what United is about'... then I worry for you.

 

[sullydnl]

I just checked, we were second then, 3 points behind City, still in the CL and finished the season in second.

Yeah but when proper fans do the things bad fans do it's different, cuz they're proper.

 

[R'hllor]

"Guys I've had a few insults in this thread that I won't respond to (or report yet) but please focus the discussion on football and not attacking posters."

Guess true supporters didnt like you making such a thread

 

[He'sRaldo]

I’m convinced the internet is literally ruining the world. Not even joking.

Ironically one of the main reasons the internet sucks is because it allows randoms with poor opinions to have dozens of replies and attention to their thoughts.

Case in point this thread.

 

[justsomebloke]

Why do we have to give the local lads more leeway? That makes no sense. I judge every player equally when it comes to representing my club. It’s weird how left wing redcafe gets so nationalist when talking about the United squad. People who criticise the players or manager simply want the club to be better. What you’re asking for here is blind faith, sometimes people just aren’t good enough for the size & expectations of the club. Players like Dan James for example clearly are not good enough & it’s extremely unlikely he ever will be. If we took your approach the likes of Cleverley & Welbeck would still be starting for us. This “support the lads” attitude just looks like a lack of ambition to me. The players & the manager are expendable replaceable employees, my support is for the club.

Well, "The club" in effect pretty much consists of "the players & the manager". It's not some abstraction that you can support, at the same time that you're not supporting the players & the manager. That's just turning "the club" into some weird totem for you to throw your negativity at.

Also, you seem to suffer from delusions of grandeur concerning your and other fans influence. Your readiness to be dissatisfied is not what prevents this club from sinking into ambitionless mediocrity. I'm pretty sure Cleverley and Welbeck would be gone by now regardless of what you or others wrote around here, simply because such decisions are made on the basis of what players provide on the pitch, not what is written on fans forums. Also, no one who makes decisions gives a shit if you think Daniel James is good enough, or ever will be. Which is just as well, because you don't know. We can have our views and make our wishes and hope for the best, but you are deluding yourself if you think anything is actually "clear" just because it seems clear to you. And that goes for all of us.

 

[Lennon7]

Ironically one of the reasons the internet sucks is because it allows randoms with poor opinions to have dozens of replies and attention to their thoughts.

Case in point this thread.

And also allow their opinions to be criticised, like this post. Usually it can open a debate but hard to reply to your post with a relevant response.

Poor opinions are ones that shouldn’t be shared that are immoral, warped, backwards etc. - I wouldn’t class a thread about actually supporting your team on a forum about that very team to fall under that definition!!

 

[He'sRaldo]

And also allow their opinions to be criticised, like this post. Usually it can open a debate but hard to reply to your post with a relevant response.

Poor opinions are ones that shouldn’t be shared that are immoral, warped, backwards etc. - I wouldn’t class a thread about actually supporting your team on a forum about that very team to fall under that definition!!

Not every thought from every person on earth needs to be entertained and debated by crowds, but that's essentially what happens online.

As for the OP, the very fact that he/she doesn't even believe in their opinion enough to stick with it when the going really got tough under Jose, is enough to class the opinion as poor.

 

[Lewnited]

There seems to be a pervading theme on this forum as there is in real life. It's an idea that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. The amount of nonsense I have seen posted that is excused with, 'Well we are all fans - sometimes we let emotions get the better of us.'

After a win yesterday, there are more negative posts than there are positive ones. As I type this the top three threads in the player performances forum are Lingard/James and Greenwood. No prizes for guessing the content of these threads. There's no denying that once we lose the post match thread gets roughly five times as many posts as when we win comfortably. Negativity sells on forums and amasses plenty of replies.

This is not how you support a football team.

Supporting a team is about getting together and backing the lads. It's about giving the local lads more leeway. It's about believing in 'legends' of the club and supporting them. It's about having positive feelings about Manchester United.

Some of you clearly get no joy from a game unless we win every match. Some of you want new players, new managers, new formations every week instead of taking pride in the journey.

Support the team. Don't make up childish nicknames. Don't insult those in the team you don't think are good enough. Don't post five negative comments for every half hearted positive comment you can see. Don't stick up for pundits or players who insult our team.

Get behind the lads. Wish them the best. Wish that the player you hate the most can turn it around. Give the young winger who loses the ball a bit of slack. Believe that the player on the fringes might turn it around.

It must be so miserable for some of you.

Have to say the thread is nonsensical at best. I personally refrain from overly negative comments but people react in the heat of the moment because we're all equally as invested in the club as eachother.

Particularly with the current climate across the nation, there are no doubt Manchester supporters all over who see football as their only escape at this current time. Who are you to tell them how to support a football team?

 

[Wumminator]

I'm wondering why some people have reacted so badly to this thread. Why has my perfectly reasonable thread got them rattled?

@Schmeichel's Cartwheel

Ole out. The most clueless manager in world football.

Turning this shite off. Ole out. Disgraceful coach”

Your man is the worst manager in the league. Ole out.

Fans see Ole’s mistakes before Ole does, no need for the high & mighty “fans no nothing” shite just to protect your clueless yes man manager who will continue to lower the bar.

Oh. Okay

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I'm wondering why some people have reacted so badly to this thread. Why has my perfectly reasonable thread got them rattled?

@Schmeichel's Cartwheel








Oh. Okay

You’re quoting emotion filled posts after the Leipzig game which I stand by. He approached that game cowardly. We would still be in the CL now with a braver manager. Our defensive organisation is amateurish at times, that goal at Istanbul was something you’d expect to see in Sunday league football. I’ve always said he seems like a good man manager, but tactically I don’t think he’s up to the job. He makes ridiculous comments after bad results sometimes which just sound like he’s trolling. As I’ve said all along, I’ll happily be proved wrong if we’re lifting the title in may.

 

[Wumminator]

You’re quoting emotion filled posts after the Leipzig game which I stand by. He approached that game cowardly. We would still be in the CL now with a braver manager.

“Emotion filled posts” is not an excuse for constant over the top nonsense that fills these forums. It is absolutely not and it brings the quality of the forum down.

This is exactly what I mean. People compared my views earlier to a Trump fan; but it’s clear to me that the issue permeating the internet and culture is evidenced here. Instead of contributing anything that is thought out or adds insight, we thrive off “emotions” without thinking of the bigger picture.
Can football piss you off? Yes. Can you be immensely disappointed? Yes. Calling Ole a joke, a fraud and saying he’s clueless and disgraceful are silly posts and should be called out as such as that is not how you support a team.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Saying Rawk is better than redcafe says it all about what you want from an online forum. Lots of circlejerking and fan fiction apparently. Thankfully redcafe will never be like rawk no matter how hard the top reds try to stop people using mean words at ole.

 

[Wumminator]

Saying Rawk is better than redcafe says it all about what you want from an online forum. Lots of circlejerking and fan fiction apparently. Thankfully redcafe will never be like rawk no matter how hard the top reds try to stop people using mean words at ole.

Nothing emotional or kneejerk about thinking ole is a shit manager.

feck off and take ole with you

Those two posts wouldn’t have been allowed at RAWK.

 

[dev1l]

"emotion filled posts".he he, as if people having problems at home have a divine right to vent their frustrations at others who have nothing to do with their personal issues.

If that's the case , go to a psychologist or whatever they call them nowadays and stop infesting forums with toxicity.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Those two posts wouldn’t have been allowed at RAWK.

Did those two posts upset you? Are you hurt emotionally? Bad internet man said shit and feck. Oh no!

 

[GazTheLegend]

RAWK absolutely has a better level of quality than RedCafe.

I think I'm someone who goes the matches, loves United and promotes positivity with realistic expectations.

How many more people are going to have to say they stopped visiting the forum because of all the shit negativity before people realise this isn't a 'both sides' argument.

Agreed.

The constant negativity and bullshit makes me avoid redcafe for a week after a defeat. People that DO log on then feed into their toxic circlejerk about Ole, Maguire, among many other players who seem to get targeted for nothing less than vitriolic abuse in here win lose or draw.

 

[Wumminator]

Agreed.

The constant negativity and bullshit makes me avoid redcafe for a week after a defeat. People that DO log on then feed into their toxic circlejerk about Ole, Maguire, among many other players who seem to get targeted for nothing less than vitriolic abuse in here win lose or draw.

Thank you.
Second person in this thread who has said that they come on the forum less because of the negativity.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Saying Rawk is better than redcafe says it all about what you want from an online forum. Lots of circlejerking and fan fiction apparently. Thankfully redcafe will never be like rawk no matter how hard the top reds try to stop people using mean words at ole.

I actually now understand why Rawk decided to go the way they did. You don't get anything from a post like "X is so shit" or "Y needs to go". I feel like people should write about players and above the way they might if that player was sitting in front of them, personally. Imagine if one of those players actually logged in here to read the absolute -nonsense- the "bottom reds" spew forth about them.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Thank you.
Second person in this thread who has said that they come on the forum less because of the negativity.

Its hard to deal with. After we won that game the other week with Rashfords winner, people were giving him abuse in his thread for some weird reason. People have slated Bruno for fecks sake after winning matches. I log in after we WIN and get wound up, logging in after a loss would drive me even more batshit insane I think.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I actually now understand why Rawk decided to go the way they did. You don't get anything from a post like "X is so shit" or "Y needs to go". I feel like people should write about players and above the way they might if that player was sitting in front of them, personally. Imagine if one of those players actually logged in here to read the absolute -nonsense- the "bottom reds" spew forth about them.

Most of those posts the guy dug up were after Leipzig. If you think the manager and players showed up after that result and performance to a random place full of united fans, there wouldn't be any swearing? Have you heard of this guy called Roy Keane who told his own teammates they were shit and not good enough and yet led us to title after title. I'll put it down to emotional fragility but good luck in life to you lot.

 

[freeurmind]

I agree that there is far too much negativity on here when we win without playing great but also people need to understand that when we don't get the right results players and the manager will get criticized. It's about balance.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Most of those posts the guy dug up were after Leipzig. If you think the manager and players showed up after that result and performance to a random place full of united fans, there wouldn't be any swearing? Have you heard of this guy called Roy Keane who told his own teammates they were shit and not good enough and yet led us to title after title. I'll put it down to emotional fragility but good luck in life to you lot.

Yes and Roy Keane was LET GO from Manchester United because of that attitude, shame that doesn't happen to some people on here. Read up on Roy Keane and Darren Fletcher, if you can't remember that far back, and the decision Alex Ferguson made, mainly.

 

[Grande]

Why do we have to give the local lads more leeway? That makes no sense. I judge every player equally when it comes to representing my club. It’s weird how left wing redcafe gets so nationalist when talking about the United squad. People who criticise the players or manager simply want the club to be better. What you’re asking for here is blind faith, sometimes people just aren’t good enough for the size & expectations of the club. Players like Dan James for example clearly are not good enough & it’s extremely unlikely he ever will be. If we took your approach the likes of Cleverley & Welbeck would still be starting for us. This “support the lads” attitude just looks like a lack of ambition to me. The players & the manager are expendable replaceable employees, my support is for the club.

If I may use your response as an example of why the OP has some good points:

The suggestion of giving constructive criticism and leeway, you call ‘blind faith’.

To support the players is to you ‘lack of ambition’.

To give extra leeway and opportunities to local youngsters, aka The Matt Busby Method, to you ‘makes no sense’ and is ‘nationalist’.

In effect, to you the connection with Manchester means nothing extra, the players are just tools for you to fulfil your personal ambition, and having faith in the lads is to you a threat of robbing you of your success.

From what you call ‘the club’, you subtract the area Manchester and it’s people, the tradition as laid down by i.e. Busby and Ferguson, the players, coaches and staff doing the actual work and play, and what remains is effectively only you and your idea of the brand MUFC(tm). All the others are really against you, a problem to be solved.

I think the OP is right, that is not ‘supporting a club’, you are not actually supporting it in that way. Rather using it for your own means. I think it more fair actually if individual fans rather thought of themselves as more expendable than the coaches, players and staff. A collective of supporters is not expendable. Individuals who don’t support, are.

 

[Grande]

Without the players and staff Manchester United is just a name on a building that's going to decrepit over time until it crumbles into a pile of dust and memories of people long forgotten. For a sport that is largely built on entertainment and peoples emotional connetion to club and players, pretending that we're a faceless Fortune 500 company that should only judge its character on the bottom line is a very impressive way of pretending to be something you're not: An automaton who'se prime objective is to win above all else.

I think you're intentionally ignoring the rich history this club has with it's local lads and academy graduates. The class of 92' has literally reached legend status as a group, not just as individuals. And you don't understand why support for the locals lads is a central tenet of this club? Really?

Up untl 2004 football fans were largely what most Manchester United fans remain today: Passionate fans with tunnelvision when it comes to their own players and history. History is important, it's the very REASON to support something.

After Roman bought Chelsea we started to slowly enter a period of football where enormous amounts of cash was funneled into the sport, social media took off and it changed the entire ecosystem in terms of availability, discussion, discourse and loyalty.

Football fans in their early 20s and younger have grown up with the realization that football clubs should buy every player thanks to the help of their incredibly rich owners to win everything. Clubs like PSG, Manchester City and Chelsea are completely fabricated teams that wouldn't exist today without it's owners funneling money the club never had the potential to aquire on it's own. Even Liverpool were saved from mediocricy during the Fenway takeover.

Rich owners have become just a important part of a clubs identity as the players to some fans, buying your way to the top is the norm. Loyalty is to no one. It's the real life version of Football Manager where players are as expendable as their last performance. "We can just get a new centerback for £50 million, how hard can it be".

Imagine thinking that the people who have entire sections of the club named after them, are former expendable replacable employees.

I wish I read this post before I answered the other post myself. Well put.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Yes and Roy Keane was LET GO from Manchester United because of that attitude, shame that doesn't happen to some people on here. Read up on Roy Keane and Darren Fletcher, if you can't remember that far back, and the decision Alex Ferguson made, mainly.

Roy keane let go cause of his attitude? The same attitude he's had his whole adult life, that all his ex teammates praise and say pushed them to achieve things they might not have been able to? Roy keane was let go because he was getting old and couldn't play football anymore. He had loads of injuries and retired from football a few months after leaving us. His contract was also about to run out at the end of the year he left.

 

[Wumminator]

Without the players and staff Manchester United is just a name on a building that's going to decrepit over time until it crumbles into a pile of dust and memories of people long forgotten. For a sport that is largely built on entertainment and peoples emotional connetion to club and players, pretending that we're a faceless Fortune 500 company that should only judge its character on the bottom line is a very impressive way of pretending to be something you're not: An automaton who'se prime objective is to win above all else.

I think you're intentionally ignoring the rich history this club has with it's local lads and academy graduates. The class of 92' has literally reached legend status as a group, not just as individuals. And you don't understand why support for the locals lads is a central tenet of this club? Really?

Up untl 2004 football fans were largely what most Manchester United fans remain today: Passionate fans with tunnelvision when it comes to their own players and history. History is important, it's the very REASON to support something.

After Roman bought Chelsea we started to slowly enter a period of football where enormous amounts of cash was funneled into the sport, social media took off and it changed the entire ecosystem in terms of availability, discussion, discourse and loyalty.

Football fans in their early 20s and younger have grown up with the realization that football clubs should buy every player thanks to the help of their incredibly rich owners to win everything. Clubs like PSG, Manchester City and Chelsea are completely fabricated teams that wouldn't exist today without it's owners funneling money the club never had the potential to aquire on it's own. Even Liverpool were saved from mediocricy during the Fenway takeover.

Rich owners have become just a important part of a clubs identity as the players to some fans, buying your way to the top is the norm. Loyalty is to no one. It's the real life version of Football Manager where players are as expendable as their last performance. "We can just get a new centerback for £50 million, how hard can it be".

Imagine thinking that the people who have entire sections of the club named after them, are former expendable replacable employees.

If I may use your response as an example of why the OP has some good points:

The suggestion of giving constructive criticism and leeway, you call ‘blind faith’.

To support the players is to you ‘lack of ambition’.

To give extra leeway and opportunities to local youngsters, aka The Matt Busby Method, to you ‘makes no sense’ and is ‘nationalist’.

In effect, to you the connection with Manchester means nothing extra, the players are just tools for you to fulfil your personal ambition, and having faith in the lads is to you a threat of robbing you of your success.

From what you call ‘the club’, you subtract the area Manchester and it’s people, the tradition as laid down by i.e. Busby and Ferguson, the players, coaches and staff doing the actual work and play, and what remains is effectively only you and your idea of the brand MUFC(tm). All the others are really against you, a problem to be solved.

I think the OP is right, that is not ‘supporting a club’, you are not actually supporting it in that way. Rather using it for your own means. I think it more fair actually if individual fans rather thought of themselves as more expendable than the coaches, players and staff. A collective of supporters is not expendable. Individuals who don’t support, are.

Any mods reading this thread... is there a way this thread can be put into the classics for these posts alone? Fantastic contribution lads and made me smile a lot!

 

[Morpheus 7]

RAWK absolutely has a better level of quality than RedCafe.

I think I'm someone who goes the matches, loves United and promotes positivity with realistic expectations.

How many more people are going to have to say they stopped visiting the forum because of all the shit negativity before people realise this isn't a 'both sides' argument.

Loves to go matches ha ha....
How many matches did you go to?
How many jerseys do you have?
Are you from Manchester?
This I'm a real man fan nonsense is embarrassing, top red shit needs to end. Maybe you stick to RAWK and spread your positivity there. Childish behaviour it's really pathetic, you are acting the big man in this thread today. Typical keyboard warrior, who would say nothing to a poster face to face. I said to you in the past, the clue is in your name on here WUM.