Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Maticmaker]

The government are responsible for the UK budget, the tax laws, pensions, NI, benefits, social care, the health service, zero hours contracts and many more things so staying in or leaving the EU was not going to change that. How could remainers say that staying in the EU would improve any of the above.

That is exactly my point they could not ... but should have.
Many of the EU states, the smaller ones in particular who have significant populations at low subsistence levels, but who have seen massive improvements since they joined the EU, are examples of how the EU has improved the lot of working people; but this has not happened in the UK, indeed many people in the declining areas of the UK have made the connection (or had it made for them by Brexiteers) that their 'suffering' is at the expense of the improvements in other EU states, i.e. because the UK is sending Billions of pounds to the EU each year which in theory could be spent in the UK... perhaps on the NHS!!
The ideal of the EU with its 'ever closer Union' would/should have been used to counteract this 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' idea, but guess what the remain message was more of the same folks and should you even think about leaving, you will all be destitute and poor in a few years...oh sorry you are already half-way there!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That is exactly my point they could not ... but should have.
Many of the EU states, the smaller ones in particular who have significant populations at low subsistence levels, but who have seen massive improvements since they joined the EU, are examples of how the EU has improved the lot of working people; but this has not happened in the UK, indeed many people in the declining areas of the UK have made the connection (or had it made for them by Brexiteers) that their 'suffering' is at the expense of the improvements in other EU states, i.e. because the UK is sending Billions of pounds to the EU each year which in theory could be spent in the UK... perhaps on the NHS!!
The ideal of the EU with its 'ever closer Union' would/should have been used to counteract this 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' idea, but guess what the remain message was more of the same folks and should you even think about leaving, you will all be destitute and poor in a few years...oh sorry you are already half-way there!

But that would be a lie. What the UK sent to the EU was less than 1% of the UK budget and the benefits the UK had just from trading far outweigh that i.e. lower prices in the shops, that was explained by remainers but they were not listened to. The EU sent money to poorer parts of the UK to invest in projects.

If something upsets the people in France, they blame the french government. In the UK they blame the EU and vote for the same government again.

As I said the question should have been , who is causing your problems?

 

[Maticmaker]

As I said the question should have been , who is causing your problems?

And that is what the remain campaign should have been about... posing that question then providing the hard evidence, e.g. from money received from projects (as you say) or identifying other benefits, that would accrue in the future actions from the EU. Actions that would force national governments to address the longer term problems in their deprived areas, such as the rejuvenation of post industrial local economies. In some areas eg. ex-mining in South Wales or Yorkshire there was help identified from the EU, but it was temporary and often when the project money disappeared so did the project.

However the problem was no one did, except Brexiteers e.g. although the £300,000 for NHS, was laughable, but it could/just might have worked! It was something different and positive, would make change possible, etc. even if subsequently it never arrived.

All the 'blue sky' thinking' emerged from the Brexiteers, nothing from remain.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And that is what the remain campaign should have been about... posing that question then providing the hard evidence, e.g. from money received from projects (as you say) or identifying other benefits, that would accrue in the future actions from the EU. Actions that would force national governments to address the longer term problems in their deprived areas, such as the rejuvenation of post industrial local economies. In some areas eg. ex-mining in South Wales or Yorkshire there was help identified from the EU, but it was temporary and often when the project money disappeared so did the project.

However the problem was no one did, except Brexiteers e.g. although the £300,000 for NHS, was laughable, but it could/just might have worked! It was something different and positive, would make change possible, etc. even if subsequently it never arrived.

All the 'blue sky' thinking' emerged from the Brexiteers, nothing from remain.

But the question wasn't answered by the Leave campaign either. Apart from the lie about the NHS money, what else did they actually promise? They have been asked repeatedly for nearly five years, what are the benefits of leaving, they still haven't answered. Yet these people voted for leave despite them having no answers. Doubt blue passports were their major priority, and even this petty thing was a lie.

From a personal point of view, having lived in the south-eastern part of England all the time I lived in the UK, I never knew anyone from deprived northern areas but I know plenty of people who voted Brexit, none of them lived in deprived areas, none were poor and I don't think any of them have changed their minds. How could Remain have changed their minds? This was the imaginary sovereignty issue presumably.

 

[Maticmaker]

But the question wasn't answered by the Leave campaign either. Apart from the lie about the NHS money, what else did they actually promise? They have been asked repeatedly for nearly five years, what are the benefits of leaving, they still haven't answered. Yet these people voted for leave despite them having no answers. Doubt blue passports were their major priority, and even this petty thing was a lie.

From a personal point of view, having lived in the south-eastern part of England all the time I lived in the UK, I never knew anyone from deprived northern areas but I know plenty of people who voted Brexit, none of them lived in deprived areas, none were poor and I don't think any of them have changed their minds. How could Remain have changed their minds? This was the imaginary sovereignty issue presumably.

To be honest I don't think it would have changed the mind of those you describe. My argument was that a sufficient number of traditional working class voters could have changed their minds to have affected an overall vote to remain, if an appeal to their modest aspirations had been taken on board by the remain campaign in the way it presented its case.

The Labour party was split asunder on the issue and had all but abandoned its working class/red wall supporters on lots of other matters beside the EU and this, as much as anything, drove many in deprived areas into the Brexit camp, simply because it was suggesting 'change' and a major change at that. For years most of these people, my parents were some of them, would have voted for a dog or cat or anything wearing a Labour rosette, yet thousands changed a habit of a lifetime in one GE, to vote Tory, because their traditional politicians, apart from a honourable few, had deserted them, or more importantly no longer spoke their language.

It was a missed opportunity that many will regret and not all on the Brexit side.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

To be honest I don't think it would have changed the mind of those you describe. My argument was that a sufficient number of traditional working class voters could have changed their minds to have affected an overall vote to remain, if an appeal to their modest aspirations had been taken on board by the remain campaign in the way it presented its case.

The Labour party was split asunder on the issue and had all but abandoned its working class/red wall supporters on lots of other matters beside the EU and this, as much as anything, drove many in deprived areas into the Brexit camp, simply because it was suggesting 'change' and a major change at that. For years most of these people, my parents were some of them, would have voted for a dog or cat or anything wearing a Labour rosette, yet thousands changed a habit of a lifetime in one GE, to vote Tory, because their traditional politicians, apart from a honourable few, had deserted them, or more importantly no longer spoke their language.

It was a missed opportunity that many will regret and not all on the Brexit side.

The Leave campaign could not believe their luck at such a crucial stage in UK history with Laurel and Hardy in charge of the Labour Party. The people I was talking about were previously mainly traditional labour voters but also voted Tory for the first time ever.

 

[Maticmaker]

The Leave campaign could not believe their luck at such a crucial stage in UK history with Laurel and Hardy in charge of the Labour Party. The people I was talking about were previously mainly traditional labour voters but also voted Tory for the first time ever.

On the button there Paul!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Like something from Brass Eye.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Like something from Brass Eye.

Hopefully we'll now be protected from Gammon Farage, he can't come without a phytosanitary certificate.

 

[711]

My friend up in Lancashire said there are empty shelves in the supermarkets. Is this panic-buying, supply problems or a bit of both?

I've been in two supermarkets in the last few days in Preston, both normal.

 

[horsechoker]

I've been in two supermarkets in the last few days in Preston, both normal.

Imagine having to go to Preston

Thoughts and prayers

 

[mitChley]

My friend up in Lancashire said there are empty shelves in the supermarkets. Is this panic-buying, supply problems or a bit of both?

It was the same in Sheffield when I went Saturday evening. About 5 or 6 items I had listed which they had zero off. Not sure if it's Covid or Brexit but I do know that I have no Crème Fraiche.

 

[711]

Imagine having to go to Preston

Thoughts and prayers

Well Booths is pretty upmarket, if anyone's a bit snobby they could go in there and pretend they were in Windermere or Settle.

 

[Jippy]

Lead story on the DM. Their readers are not happy.

'Welcome to Brexit, sir!' Dutch police officers laugh at British truck driver as they confiscate his ham sandwiches due to new import rules… while he asks if he can 'just keep the bread'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...h-truck-driver-confiscate-ham-sandwiches.html


Rum Drinker, Manchester, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
We need to stop shipping goods via the port of Rotterdam, I'm sure that will make the Dutch happy!

Aphrodite4574, Midlands, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
Pathetic, that sums up the stupidity of the EU, thank god were out.

HenryCuthbertEdward, Henley-on-Thames., United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
This will not end well for the Brussels Empire...all empires eventually fail & fall.

 

[horsechoker]

Aphrodite4574, Midlands, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
Pathetic, that sums up the stupidity of the EU, thank god were out.

This comment was close to being right, up until the word "of" and then what follows is the same crap that got us into this mess.

 

[Maagge]

HenryCuthbertEdward, Henley-on-Thames., United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
This will not end well for the Brussels Empire...all empires eventually fail & fall.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Lead story on the DM. Their readers are not happy.

'Welcome to Brexit, sir!' Dutch police officers laugh at British truck driver as they confiscate his ham sandwiches due to new import rules… while he asks if he can 'just keep the bread'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...h-truck-driver-confiscate-ham-sandwiches.html


Rum Drinker, Manchester, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
We need to stop shipping goods via the port of Rotterdam, I'm sure that will make the Dutch happy!

Aphrodite4574, Midlands, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
Pathetic, that sums up the stupidity of the EU, thank god were out.

HenryCuthbertEdward, Henley-on-Thames., United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
This will not end well for the Brussels Empire...all empires eventually fail & fall.

If we were in normal times without Covid, there would a humorous story every day as the dumb Brexiters start realising what they actually voted for.

I do wish they would stop saying "new rules" though as if they've just been invented for Brexit.

 

[4bars]

If we were in normal times without Covid, there would a humorous story every day as the dumb Brexiters start realising what they actually voted for.

I do wish they would stop saying "new rules" though as if they've just been invented for Brexit.

The rules are not invented. But frankly, do you think they take the food of truckers from lets say Belarus a the polish border? or from switzerland? I don't know the status of Andorra with the EU, but they never asked me (Spain-Andorra-France and viceversa) that when I crossed the border and as far as I know, their produce is not valid for the common market

Could be an excess of zeal against UK as revenge for Brexit? or to make a point at the beginning? because yes, everywhere there is infinity of rules that are ignored and we give a certain degree of leeway. Any kind of laws

 

[JPRouve]

The rules are not invented. But frankly, do you think they take the food of truckers from lets say Belarus a the polish border? or from switzerland? I don't know the status of Andorra with the EU, but they never asked me (Spain-Andorra-France and viceversa) that when I crossed the border and as far as I know, their produce is not valid for the common market

Could be an excess of zeal against UK as revenge for Brexit? or to make a point at the beginning? because yes, everywhere there is infinity of rules that are ignored and we give a certain degree of leeway. Any kind of laws

No that's what happens when you leave the EU or enter it. Andorra has a custom agreement with the EU.

 

[Acole9]

Everything will be better when we leave they said... HA!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The rules are not invented. But frankly, do you think they take the food of truckers from lets say Belarus a the polish border? or from switzerland? I don't know the status of Andorra with the EU, but they never asked me (Spain-Andorra-France and viceversa) that when I crossed the border and as far as I know, their produce is not valid for the common market

Could be an excess of zeal against UK as revenge for Brexit? or to make a point at the beginning? because yes, everywhere there is infinity of rules that are ignored and we give a certain degree of leeway. Any kind of laws

Andorra is in a Customs Union with the EU except agricultural products so an agricultural product made in Andorra could be liable to have a phytosanitary certificate if taken to Spain or France.
On another point French customs often stop people who buy Spanish cigarettes at low prices because of low taxes, there is a limit to what they can bring.
Switzerland and Liechtenstein not applicable for the phytosanitary.

Don't think it's excess of zeal or revenge but goods traffic is at less than 25% of the normal and passenger traffic must be much lower than that so chances of being checked are high.
Even when the UK were in the EU there were always random checks at the border so if they come across something that shouldn't cross the border then the goods would be confiscated , they could always fine the culprits as well, don't think they've done that yet.

 

[4bars]

No that's what happens when you leave the EU or enter it. Andorra has a custom agreement with the EU.

UK has an agreement too.

And I checked, Andorra has no agreement on produce. Anyway, my point is that on the borders with the Custom union, I don't know if the zeal is as much as with the Brittish currently, just an assumption (correct or not)

 

[4bars]

Andorra is in a Customs Union with the EU except agricultural products so an agricultural product made in Andorra could be liable to have a phytosanitary certificate if taken to Spain or France.
On another point French customs often stop people who buy Spanish cigarettes at low prices because of low taxes, there is a limit to what they can bring.
Switzerland and Liechtenstein not applicable for the phytosanitary.

Don't think it's excess of zeal or revenge but goods traffic is at less than 25% of the normal and passenger traffic must be much lower than that so chances of being checked are high.
Even when the UK were in the EU there were always random checks at the border so if they come across something that shouldn't cross the border then the goods would be confiscated , they could always fine the culprits as well, don't think they've done that yet.

So if something that I put in my sandwhich bought in Andorra could be confiscated...and believe me, I do it everytime I go because is cheaper. I never been stop, there are random stops, but a very small percentage. Is that video from the Dutch police as random as in other borders? or is just that now is the novelty and everything is posted?

 

[JPRouve]

UK has an agreement too.

And I checked, Andorra has no agreement on produce. Anyway, my point is that on the borders with the Custom union, I don't know if the zeal is as much as with the Brittish currently, just an assumption (correct or not)

No the UK has an FTA, not a custom agreement. Also two FTAs or Custom agreements aren't equals, the rules depend on what is agreed.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So if something that I put in my sandwhich bought in Andorra could be confiscated...and believe me, I do it everytime I go because is cheaper. I never been stop, there are random stops, but a very small percentage. Is that video from the Dutch police as random as in other borders? or is just that now is the novelty and everything is posted?

Now that the UK have left the EU Customs Union there will be many more checks than before and every commercial crossing of the border with trucks that obviously carry goods that require a phytosanitary or veterinary certificate will be checked. Serious problems for a company that don't comply although they seem lenient at the moment as companies who have no such experience just have to redo their paperwork.

The UK don't have an agreement that exempts them from supplying phytosanitary or veterinary certificates for products that require them. The same as all countries that are not in a Custom's Union with the EU.

On a side point, considering the UK are/were so keen on the USA, they check every container, get a phytosanitary certificate wrong or one of other forms that are required wrong or even a dirty container and the US customs will send the container back to where it came from at the seller's cost.

From the UK's point of view, it seems they are not ready to do the necessary checks as they don't have sufficient facilities or staff so they haven't really taken control of their borders but lost control of their sandwiches .

 

[Balljy]

The rules are not invented. But frankly, do you think they take the food of truckers from lets say Belarus a the polish border? or from switzerland? I don't know the status of Andorra with the EU, but they never asked me (Spain-Andorra-France and viceversa) that when I crossed the border and as far as I know, their produce is not valid for the common market

Could be an excess of zeal against UK as revenge for Brexit? or to make a point at the beginning? because yes, everywhere there is infinity of rules that are ignored and we give a certain degree of leeway. Any kind of laws

I've seen people get stopped at airports and have food taken from luggage. Australia was particularly stringent on it.

 

[JPRouve]

I've seen people get stopped at airports and have food taken from luggage. Australia was particularly stringent on it.

In french airports they target flights and sometimes specifically check people for food.

 

[Jippy]

I've seen people get stopped at airports and have food taken from luggage. Australia was particularly stringent on it.

On that airport border police programme they just basically opened every Chinese tourist's suitcase to check or that certainly seemed their strategy.

 

[golden_blunder]

So, has anyone else bought something from the EU since the 1st of January and been hit with import charges like me?

Bought something from Amazon from a U.K. company, shipping to me in Dublin and there was an extra €6 duties on it

 

[golden_blunder]

Moving on to their next target?

2 years ago Farage was trying to stir ireland into following

 

[Wibble]

On that airport border police programme they just basically opened every Chinese tourist's suitcase to check or that certainly seemed their strategy.

I think it is more a case of the worst offenders are Chinese so they make the final edit most often although i'm sure there is a bit of profiling based on past evidence. I think "random" checks, sniffer dogs and x-rayed luggage catch most.

 

[Wibble]

Lead story on the DM. Their readers are not happy.

'Welcome to Brexit, sir!' Dutch police officers laugh at British truck driver as they confiscate his ham sandwiches due to new import rules… while he asks if he can 'just keep the bread'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...h-truck-driver-confiscate-ham-sandwiches.html


Rum Drinker, Manchester, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
We need to stop shipping goods via the port of Rotterdam, I'm sure that will make the Dutch happy!

Aphrodite4574, Midlands, United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
Pathetic, that sums up the stupidity of the EU, thank god were out.

HenryCuthbertEdward, Henley-on-Thames., United Kingdom, 2 hours ago
This will not end well for the Brussels Empire...all empires eventually fail & fall.

Gammon mad about ham.

 

[4bars]

I've seen people get stopped at airports and have food taken from luggage. Australia was particularly stringent on it.

Yes, Australia is an isolated island that tries to protect flora and fauna, the same as Chile with the natural barrier of the Andes and they get pretty serious. Now, doing check between europes is not the same after thousands of years importing everything from everywhere in the continent and do check ins from Belarus, Ukrania or Turjey would be petty for phitosanitarian reasons (besides if the country is importing from other continents)

 

[The Firestarter]

Gammon mad about ham.

Jamon ?

 

[Wibble]

Jamon ?

None of that foreign muck in this most British if threads please.

 

[Cheimoon]

Yes, Australia is an isolated island that tries to protect flora and fauna, the same as Chile with the natural barrier of the Andes and they get pretty serious. Now, doing check between europes is not the same after thousands of years importing everything from everywhere in the continent and do check ins from Belarus, Ukrania or Turjey would be petty for phitosanitarian reasons (besides if the country is importing from other continents)

I've always found it interesting how it works with Canada (which you also know, of course). When I fly from Europe to Canada, I have to fill out a customs declaration, which includes questions about food I'm taking in. If done as required, you're going to have to give up your sandwiches. I have not yet seen them check people's luggage to see if they filled out the declaration honestly though. In any case, the other way round, flying from Canada to mainland Europe (mostly the Netherlands), they ask me nothing, and I could legally bring in whatever I want. (Although I think you'd have to declare liquor when passing customs?)

From that context, I'm not sure why Dutch border guards do check so stringently on imports now; but of course I am not a freight transporter, and the new Brexit situation might cause additional scrutiny, to make sure the new rules are being followed.

 

[4bars]

I've always found it interesting how it works with Canada (which you also know, of course). When I fly from Europe to Canada, I have to fill out a customs declaration, which includes questions about food I'm taking in. If done as required, you're going to have to give up your sandwiches. I have not yet seen them check people's luggage to see if they filled out the declaration honestly though. In any case, the other way round, flying from Canada to mainland Europe (mostly the Netherlands), they ask me nothing, and I could legally bring in whatever I want. (Although I think you'd have to declare liquor when passing customs?)

From that context, I'm not sure why Dutch border guards do check so stringently on imports now; but of course I am not a freight transporter, and the new Brexit situation might cause additional scrutiny, to make sure the new rules are being followed.

Thats exactly what I mean. I suspect (maybe wrongly) that this stringent check ups to the brittish might be maybe as a warning to set a bar educate what they can or can't do, because truckers will talk among them. Maybe also because they know that the press is checking the consequences of brexit for sensationalism. I suspect that in 6 months, those checks (sandwhich like level, not business related) will be way less and for sure we will hear way less

 

[FrankDrebin]

Britons losing their minds over the Dutch border control gammon confiscators.

 

[horsechoker]

Britons losing their minds over the Dutch border control gammon confiscators.

and I say YES WE CONFISCATE IT!