SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Brwned]

This can’t be stated enough. It is taking a terrible toll on healthcare workers’ mental state.

Yeah, while it is occasionally acknowledged in the UK news it rarely seems to be discussed as a problem. It’s mostly discussed in the context of a binary choice: can the NHS handle another surge of x size, or will it overload them? There’s no question of what effects come about from having to handle another surge, and the priorities that are signalled by allowing that

Even if technically, in pure numbers, the health system “can withstand” the pressure of 100k daily cases (and probably not 200k cases), can the healthcare staff cope with that pressure as a set of individuals who’ve suffered more than anyone else? Should they have to, just to enable business and society to take a step forward? If they can get through this year, how much more likely are they to burnout, feel undervalued, etc. and leave the healthcare system in a worse off position than it started?

It’s a great shame for me. The respect for healthcare workers is very transient, and we don’t think of them seriously as a critical resource that needs support and protection to function properly.

 

[AllGoodNamesRGone]

The latest I have seen from covidiots is “the NHS is protect us not for us to protect it”. I think it’s safe to presume these are the people not getting vaccinated and ending up hospitalised.

 

[acnumber9]

Should they have to, just to enable business and society to take a step forward?

As individuals they shouldn’t have to. As an organisation they kind of have to. Society taking a step forward is crucial to being able to continue funding the NHS. We can’t really afford to continue with restrictions as they were indefinitely. They are paying the price of years of underfunding and poor management.

The lack of funding has taken its toll and the ones suffering are the ones who don’t deserve it. Anybody that doesn’t feel for these people doesn’t deserve their care.

 

[Carolina Red]

can the healthcare staff cope with that pressure as a set of individuals who’ve suffered more than anyone else? Should they have to, just to enable business and society to take a step forward? If they can get through this year, how much more likely are they to burnout, feel undervalued, etc. and leave the healthcare system in a worse off position than it started?

Exactly. My wife and several of her coworkers are having to go through therapy as-is due to being diagnosed with PTSD from all this. They can’t keep going through this. People seem to think it is some generic “nurse” job where the hospital can just sub in some new nurses in the ICU to give these a break. Well, they can’t. If they run out, there’s not others walking around who just know how to do the things ICU nurses do. They’ll have to learn on the job and that won’t be good.

The latest I have seen from covidiots is “the NHS is protect us not for us to protect it”. I think it’s safe to presume these are the people not getting vaccinated and ending up hospitalised.

I’d lose it if someone said that to me. Absolutely the most selfish, piece of shit attitude they could have.

 

[decorativeed]

Exactly. My wife and several of her coworkers are having to go through therapy as-is due to being diagnosed with PTSD from all this. They can’t keep going through this. People seem to think it is some generic “nurse” job where the hospital can just sub in some new nurses in the ICU to give these a break. Well, they can’t. If they run out, there’s not others walking around who just know how to do the things ICU nurses do. They’ll have to learn on the job and that won’t be good.


I’d lose it if someone said that to me. Absolutely the most selfish, piece of shit attitude they could have.

Health care workers such as your wife and a couple of friends I have over here are a rare breed. I certainly wouldn't want to do what they do in normal times. They go above and beyond what can be considered a job or a career and we are in danger of taking them for granted and losing them with very few people willing or capable of taking their place

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, while it is occasionally acknowledged in the UK news it rarely seems to be discussed as a problem. It’s mostly discussed in the context of a binary choice: can the NHS handle another surge of x size, or will it overload them? There’s no question of what effects come about from having to handle another surge, and the priorities that are signalled by allowing that

Even if technically, in pure numbers, the health system “can withstand” the pressure of 100k daily cases (and probably not 200k cases), can the healthcare staff cope with that pressure as a set of individuals who’ve suffered more than anyone else? Should they have to, just to enable business and society to take a step forward? If they can get through this year, how much more likely are they to burnout, feel undervalued, etc. and leave the healthcare system in a worse off position than it started?

It’s a great shame for me. The respect for healthcare workers is very transient, and we don’t think of them seriously as a critical resource that needs support and protection to function properly.

I have a bunch of friends on the front line so my instinct is to agree with all of this. But we have to remember that dealing with the dead and dying in a stretched public health system is what they do. It’s basically part of their job description.

What made their job so crazy during the first wave was relying on PPE to protect them. Now they’re all vaccinated their jobs have become that bit less stressful. So we don’t need to feel overly protective. They’re amazing people doing an incredibly tough job - whilst being chronically under-appreciated- but that’s the way it’s always been and always will be.

I hope the under-appreciation will change, moving forwards but I wouldn’t bet on it.

 

[Brwned]

I have a bunch of friends on the front line so my instinct is to agree with all of this. But we have to remember that dealing with the dead and dying in a stretched public health system is what they do. It’s basically part of their job description.

What made their job so crazy during the first wave was relying on PPE to protect them. Now they’re all vaccinated their jobs have become that bit less stressful. So we don’t need to feel overly protective. They’re amazing people doing an incredibly tough job - whilst being chronically under-appreciated- but that’s the way it’s always been and always will be.

I hope the under-appreciation will change, moving forwards but I wouldn’t bet on it.

Yeah I generally agree, the only thing I would add is now there's such a constant and collective focus on the NHS, and under such extreme circumstances, it provides them more opportunities for reflection on their place in society and what's expected of them, how they're valued, etc.

I have many fewer friends and family members who work in healthcare, but those that do generally seem closer to wit's end than they usually are, and for such a sustained period, and they do consider society's choices a direct cause of that. There's a general vibe of people want to go to a pub so much that they want to push us to breaking point, really? After we've just lost so many EU coworkers due to that other big choice society made? Not sure I can take it much longer. They always operated under that higher level of stress and managed it very well, mostly kept it below the surface. They're less able to now.

And there was already some talk of there being an epidemic of workplace burnout among healthcare workers before the pandemic, things didn't appear sustainable as they were. No doubt that dynamic of incredibly hard work and under appreciation has always been there, but placed in this other context I do think it creates a higher-level problem that we're just hoping works itself out.

Protection probably isn't the right phrase, in fairness. They're among the most resilient around so I agree we shouldn't feel overprotective. It's more a question of respect, I guess. Do we respect them so little that taking these extra risks for minimal reward is really more important than giving the healthcare system a bit of breathing room? Do we think it's ok to push them to these extremes for this long, just for a nice meal? Not sure myself.

 

[Carolina Red]

Health care workers such as your wife and a couple of friends I have over here are a rare breed. I certainly wouldn't want to do what they do in normal times. They go above and beyond what can be considered a job or a career and we are in danger of taking them for granted and losing them with very few people willing or capable of taking their place

Nor could I. Teaching through this was stressful enough for me, I don’t see how my wife and the others in her position have done it.

And you’re quite right about them leaving bedside nursing. My wife has finished her nurse practitioners degree and applied several places and will leave bedside nursing as soon as she gets a job offer. She is completely burned out at this point.

 

[Carolina Red]

But we have to remember that dealing with the dead and dying in a stretched public health system is what they do. It’s basically part of their job description.

For my wife it was the fact that she was so many times the only other person in the room for the dying person and that for so long, she knew there was nothing they could do to prevent it because they didn’t know what to do. And they just kept coming, over and over and over, all to the same result.

She’s spent her whole career in trauma and ICU, but this broke her.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

For my wife it was the fact that she was so many times the only other person in the room for the dying person and that for so long, she knew there was nothing they could do to prevent it because they didn’t know what to do. And they just kept coming, over and over and over, all to the same result.

She’s spent her whole career in trauma and ICU, but this broke her.

I hope I wasn’t downplaying what she went through. I’m sure everyone’s experience is different and ITU nurses must have got it worst of all.

 

[mav_9me]

Exactly. My wife and several of her coworkers are having to go through therapy as-is due to being diagnosed with PTSD from all this. They can’t keep going through this. People seem to think it is some generic “nurse” job where the hospital can just sub in some new nurses in the ICU to give these a break. Well, they can’t. If they run out, there’s not others walking around who just know how to do the things ICU nurses do. They’ll have to learn on the job and that won’t be good.


I’d lose it if someone said that to me. Absolutely the most selfish, piece of shit attitude they could have.

I am currently seeing it in my ICU.

The thing that infuriates me is our hospital administration and so many others don't value the nurses they have, dont adjust pay, make them work overtime for only a little extra and then of course they leave for better paying travel jobs. Which is practically every hospital. So all hospitals are willing to pay extra for travel nurses but not to their own nurses to keep them. How fecked up and nonsensical is that?

 

[Dumbstar]

The latest I have seen from covidiots is “the NHS is protect us not for us to protect it”. I think it’s safe to presume these are the people not getting vaccinated and ending up hospitalised.

The NHS is protecting them, by offering free vaccinations. Can't protect them by putting them on ventilators, so just send them straight home if unvaccinated.

 

[Carolina Red]

I am currently seeing it in my ICU.

The thing that infuriates me is our hospital administration and so many others don't value the nurses they have, dont adjust pay, make them work overtime for only a little extra and then of course they leave for better paying travel jobs. Which is practically every hospital. So all hospitals are willing to pay extra for travel nurses but not to their own nurses to keep them. How fecked up and nonsensical is that?

Yes! The hospital system my wife works for literally cut their pay back at the start of May. This was after changing the rules for receiving “Covid pay” multiple times. It started as “you work in the Covid ICU = you get Covid pay”. Then it became based on treating 1 Covid patient your entire shift. Then based on if you had 2 Covid patients for the entire shift. One shift, my wife had a Covid patient die 45 mins before shift change, so they took away her Covid pay for the entire shift because of that.

To top it off, they hired so many travel nurses, who by contract must work, that when patient census went down, they were also sending the nurses actually employed by the hospital home (frequently with no pay) to make room for the travelers.

 

[mav_9me]

Yes! The hospital system my wife works for literally cut their pay back at the start of May. This was after changing the rules for receiving “Covid pay” multiple times. It started as “you work in the Covid ICU = you get Covid pay”. Then it became based on treating 1 Covid patients your entire shift. Then based on if you had 2 number of Covid patients for the entire shift. One shift, my wife had a Covid patient die 45 mins before shift change, so they took away her Covid pay for the entire shift because of that.

To top it off, they hired so many travel nurses, who by contract must work, that when patient census went down, they were also sending the nurses actually employed by the hospital home (frequently with no pay) to make room for the travelers.

wow. Could not make it up.

 

[decorativeed]

wow. Could not make it up.

That's possibly not even the worst part of that post! Management everywhere throughout this seem to have ratcheted up the cnut-ometers!

 

[groovyalbert]

Pretty big drop off in cases in the UK from the same time last week - down almost 10,000 from 48,553 to 39,906. Most probably the school holiday impact.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Pretty big drop off in cases in the UK from the same time last week - down almost 10,000 from 48,553 to 39,906. Most probably the school holiday impact.

Whatever’s behind it that’s great news. Almost out of the woods in terms of any Euros surge too.

EDIT: Obviously 5 day average the best way to get a handle on what’s actually happening.

 

[jojojo]

Pretty big drop off in cases in the UK from the same time last week - down almost 10,000 from 48,553 to 39,906. Most probably the school holiday impact.

Schools and colleges are closing, students have mostly gone home. There was a blip upwards in the case curve during the Euros, but it faded as fast. The warm weather will have helped, it's a lot easier to follow advice to meet outside when it's like this.

We don't know what impact the wider reopening will have yet, or whether the age demographics will change. That'll show up next week.

Meanwhile even one dose of a vaccine will have an impact, on the younger ones it'll have an impact about two weeks after the jab.

All my instincts say it's time to offer incentives for getting the jab and give better support for people quarantining. We won't stop the anti-vaxers and the covid deniers from spouting idiocy, but we can encourage the apathetic and we can assist the ones who would take up a walk-in option if it was a van in the supermarket carpark rather than a trip across town to a football stadium.

 

[Carolina Red]

I hope I wasn’t downplaying what she went through. I’m sure everyone’s experience is different and ITU nurses must have got it worst of all.

I definitely didn’t mean to make it seem that way. Apologies.

I just wanted to point out that this experience is different, due to the frequency of dying patients and prolonged nature of the pandemic, and it is seriously mentally affecting nurses who have already been conditioned to seeing the worst cases.

 

[Carolina Red]

wow. Could not make it up.

It’s absurd. And all the cost cutting is because the company is trying to expand and buy out more hospitals. It’s purely to drive up profits so they can expand.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Health care workers such as your wife and a couple of friends I have over here are a rare breed. I certainly wouldn't want to do what they do in normal times. They go above and beyond what can be considered a job or a career and we are in danger of taking them for granted and losing them with very few people willing or capable of taking their place

More than 60% (yes that many) of the senior team of Doctors at my Wife's work place have decided to go part time due to the influx of extra patients and less staff to deal with them since Covid began. They are burnt out. Most of them don't plan to return to work full time and some are thinking of changing careers or leaving for Australian and US healthcare systems which actually pays doctors what they are worth making the hardship somewhat acceptable.

 

[decorativeed]

Schools and colleges are closing, students have mostly gone home. There was a blip upwards in the case curve during the Euros, but it faded as fast. The warm weather will have helped, it's a lot easier to follow advice to meet outside when it's like this.

We don't know what impact the wider reopening will have yet, or whether the age demographics will change. That'll show up next week.

Meanwhile even one dose of a vaccine will have an impact, on the younger ones it'll have an impact about two weeks after the jab.

All my instincts say it's time to offer incentives for getting the jab and give better support for people quarantining. We won't stop the anti-vaxers and the covid deniers from spouting idiocy, but we can encourage the apathetic and we can assist the ones who would take up a walk-in option if it was a van in the supermarket carpark rather than a trip across town to a football stadium.

I spoke to the nurse who did my vaccinations, and she said that even during a day of non-stop rain a few weeks back, the pop-up vaccination clinic they did in the local Asda carpark was the busiest they'd had, so you may be on to something there.

 

[decorativeed]

More than 60% (yes that many) of the senior team of Doctors at my Wife's work place have decided to go part time due to the influx of extra patients and less staff to deal with them since Covid began. They are burnt out. Most of them don't plan to return to work full time and some are thinking of changing careers or leaving for Australian and US healthcare systems which actually pays doctors what they are worth making the hardship somewhat acceptable.

I couldn't blame them. It must have been horrific to work through.

 

[11101]

A most excellent development in Italy.

From 6th August if you dont have the Covid certificate you won't be allowed in restaurants, bars, gyms, swimming pools, stadiums, events or pretty much public facilties of any kind.

 

[jojojo]

A most excellent development in Italy.

From 6th August if you dont have the Covid certificate you won't be allowed in restaurants, bars, gyms, swimming pools, stadiums, events or pretty much public facilties of any kind.

That's a vaccine or recent negative test pass isn't it? I'm happy with that idea, it means everyone can do something to stop the spread, and no one has an excuse not to.

I admit - despite my trust in the vaccines, and seeing them as the only realistic way out of the epidemic - that I'm reluctant to see taking the vaccine as the only way for people to prove that they're bothered about stopping infection spreading. Compulsion seems wrong, but making it easier in everyday life to be vaxxed rather than unvaxxed seems necessary - because too many people can't imagine that infection or illness can happen to them.

 

[golden_blunder]

A most excellent development in Italy.

From 6th August if you dont have the Covid certificate you won't be allowed in restaurants, bars, gyms, swimming pools, stadiums, events or pretty much public facilties of any kind.

Thumbs up. Incentive to go get jabbed

 

[golden_blunder]

That's a vaccine or recent negative test pass isn't it? I'm happy with that idea, it means everyone can do something to stop the spread, and no one has an excuse not to.

I admit - despite my trust in the vaccines, and seeing them as the only realistic way out of the epidemic - that I'm reluctant to see taking the vaccine as the only way for people to prove that they're bothered about stopping infection spreading. Compulsion seems wrong, making it easier in everyday life to be vaxxedv rather than unvaxxed seems necessary - because too many people can't imagine that infection or illness can happen to them.

I don’t trust most of the tests because it involves people assaulting their own noses with a swab or their tonsils. Most people can’t do it themselves and it only tells you that you don’t have it at that point in time. Vaccines are the way

 

[11101]

That's a vaccine or recent negative test pass isn't it? I'm happy with that idea, it means everyone can do something to stop the spread, and no one has an excuse not to.

I admit - despite my trust in the vaccines, and seeing them as the only realistic way out of the epidemic - that I'm reluctant to see taking the vaccine as the only way for people to prove that they're bothered about stopping infection spreading. Compulsion seems wrong, making it easier in everyday life to be vaxxedv rather than unvaxxed seems necessary - because too many people can't imagine that infection or illness can happen to them.

You can get it with the 1st vaccine dose, a negative test within 48 hours, or if you recovered from Covid in the last 6 months.

It's definitely necessary to have some alternative to getting vaccinated, and by law Covid tests will be sold at cost price.

I don’t trust most of the tests because it involves people assaulting their own noses with a swab or their tonsils. Most people can’t do it themselves and it only tells you that you don’t have it at that point in time. Vaccines are the way

Not here. Tests must be done by a doctor, nurse or pharmacist.

 

[golden_blunder]

You can get it with the 1st vaccine dose, a negative test within 48 hours, or if you recovered from Covid in the last 6 months.

It's definitely necessary to have some alternative to getting vaccinated, and by law Covid tests will be sold at cost price.



Not here. Tests must be done by a doctor, nurse or pharmacist.

What about those ones you can order to home?

 

[Wibble]

Children do seem to catch and spread Delta far more than previous variants. Australia just approve vaccinations for the over 12s (not that we have any vaccine) and Pfizer and Moderna should be given to all over 5's (or younger depending in the trials) as soon as their trails with kids are completed.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...085dcd6b596185#block-60fa2fe08f085dcd6b596185

 

[11101]

What about those ones you can order to home?

You can still get self test kits but they're not valid for the certificate or any kind of quarantine/travel tests you need to have. Just a toy really.

 

[esmufc07]

Children do seem to catch and spread Delta far more than previous variants. Australia just approve vaccinations for the over 12s (not that we have any vaccine) and Pfizer and Moderna should be given to all over 5's (or younger depending in the trials) as soon as their trails with kids are completed.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...085dcd6b596185#block-60fa2fe08f085dcd6b596185

My brother has his wife are both sadly anti vaccine and they said vaccinating kids equates to child abuse when I saw them yesterday. Didn’t have the energy to argue so just said OK.

 

[Wibble]

My brother has his wife are both sadly anti vaccine and they said vaccinating kids equates to child abuse when I saw them yesterday. Didn’t have the energy to argue so just said OK.

Not vaccinating kids in general is a low level of child abuse in my book.

 

[Penna]

Getting young teens vaccinated has to be a priority now, with the school holidays here. I'm glad they're already doing it here in Italy.

We have a vaccination centre just down the road, and when I went past it yesterday it was really busy there. This is in a small semi-rural town, so that's good to see. People are still coming out in large numbers to get their vaccinations.

Italy could have made it easier for people by allowing us to go to the nearest centre - we had to drive to one an hour away because the one just down the road is in the neighbouring province to ours, and Macerata residents have to be jabbed in Macerata, not Fermo!

 

[11101]

Getting young teens vaccinated has to be a priority now, with the school holidays here. I'm glad they're already doing it here in Italy.

We have a vaccination centre just down the road, and when I went past it yesterday it was really busy there. This is in a small semi-rural town, so that's good to see. People are still coming out in large numbers to get their vaccinations.

Italy could have made it easier for people by allowing us to go to the nearest centre - we had to drive to one an hour away because the one just down the road is in the neighbouring province to ours, and Macerata residents have to be jabbed in Macerata, not Fermo!

That's a region thing. Here you can search for vaccination centres by province and go to any centre within your region.

 

[Balljy]

A study funded by the DHSC has found that separating Phizer jabs slightly further apart shows both higher antibody counts and higher proportions of helper T cells after the second dose. The study was on a 10 week period, but they have suggested an 8 week interval to get people double jabbed quicker as a sweet spot. This is similar to AZ I think where longer intervals are showing higher antibody counts.

Pfizer vaccine second dose has ‘sweet spot’ after eight weeks, UK scientists say | Coronavirus | The Guardian

 

[Penna]

That's a region thing. Here you can search for vaccination centres by province and go to any centre within your region.

That would have made so much sense for Marche. I really don't understand why they've done this, as Fermo province is also in Marche. We've had the ancients in our village having to find a way to get to an industrial estate outside Macerata city - but even so, they seem to have managed it.

 

[11101]

A study funded by the DHSC has found that separating Phizer jabs slightly further apart shows both higher antibody counts and higher proportions of helper T cells after the second dose. The study was on a 10 week period, but they have suggested an 8 week interval to get people double jabbed quicker as a sweet spot. This is similar to AZ I think where longer intervals are showing higher antibody counts.

Pfizer vaccine second dose has ‘sweet spot’ after eight weeks, UK scientists say | Coronavirus | The Guardian

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.

That would have made so much sense for Marche. I really don't understand why they've done this, as Fermo province is also in Marche. We've had the ancients in our village having to find a way to get to an industrial estate outside Macerata city - but even so, they seem to have managed it.

Don't the local doctors and pharmacists do it in your region?

 

[Lj82]

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.




Don't the local doctors and pharmacists do it in your region?

It depends on context though? The thinking here in Singapore is to vaccinate as many people with double doses as possible, as completing two doses significantly increases protection. Rather than taking longer to help every vaccinated person achieve above 95% protection, it is more effective to vaccinate more people at 90% level of protection?

 

[Balljy]

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.

That crossed my mind as I was reading it. To be fair, it's very likely that the ideal interval is different from what the manufacturers have suggested. They've tested on a program and we should really follow the results from that, but it doesn't mean that a different interval doesn't have a higher immune response.

The problem is that the UK government went away from the manufacturers guidelines before these studies were done rather than after.