I personally don't think it's the right time to make wholesale adjustments to formations. Ralf came at the busiest time in the season with the team also affected by Covid. You also need the right type of players and time to implement that particular system. I personally think Ralf got It badly wrong. It was certainly the wrong time to introduce new systems. The best results came in Carrick's brief spell and he stuck with the existing formation used by Ole.
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
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I love silly posts like this. It's the same logic of fans who would say "it took Tuchel 6 months to win the CL, whats every other manager's excuse?"
Thoughts on the players constantly giving the ball away, and looking lethargic off the ball?
It will always be at an "all time low" when you have a new manager asking you to run for the whole game.
It's very fecking hard to run the whole game when your plan isn't working. It's easy to run with the ball but hard on the mental to run after it.
Because our midfield + Bruno are 100% wank at keeping the ball, most of our players run after it and there comes the frustration.
It's not RR's fault, it's the club's for appointing fecking useless coaches before him.
Gerrard didn’t walk into a toxic environment with barely any midfielders. Ramsey and McGinn are better than what we have. Very hard to impose anything with no control in the midfield.
The positives
Conceding far less despite upheaval in defence. We were Shambolic this season. Leicester, Liverpool, Watford. Some of the worst defending I've ever seen here.
The stats say we're winning the ball more and higher up.
The negatives
The main problem of game passing in midfield remains.
The long held problem of laziness, sloppiness and complete lack of focus remains
We don't look like scoring
Conceding far less despite upheaval in defence. We were Shambolic this season. Leicester, Liverpool, Watford. Some of the worst defending I've ever seen here.
The stats say we're winning the ball more and higher up.
The negatives
The main problem of game passing in midfield remains.
The long held problem of laziness, sloppiness and complete lack of focus remains
We don't look like scoring
I'm amazed with the state of our players, and how they've been performing most of the season. Folk have already turned on the manager already. Barely any of our top players can even do the basics at the moment, and have been the same from October, The forwards are totally letting down everybody with constant mistakes and general bad play, it's putting constant pressure on the team with a total failure to control the ball and possession at times.
In a strange irony, people seem to be happy with another Ole replica coming in instead to bring some positivity, and more of a bounce to get through the rest of the season.
Its not the fix, by the end of the season we be stuck with the same problems Ole and Ralf have run into. If the players actually hate Ralf, then they deserve the misery to the summer, and it won't end there as he be moving to consultancy role, and will be letting them know his thoughts on them. Half of them are playing for their futures. They've had a free ride for way too long. They paid as good as any players about with less the effort of end result. The club is massive fault with that too.
Normally I don't moan about the players, but this season they've sickened me big time. Not many of them you can come away and think they been close to their best, and showed it on the pitch.
Yeah but it’s not just Gerrard is it, loads of managers make an instant positive impact, so in that sense it’s not like the Tuchel CL example at all.
My take is still the same, Rangnick is probably still a very smart tactician but another weird, illogical move by the club.
No way he’s able to implement his style in such a short time with incompatible players and undermined by being on a short term contract.
I do also wonder if he’s ready to handle this type of pressure and these types of egos, but you could say that about many managers before they’re given a shot.
So posts always debating is it the manager, the players, etc etc. Yes in part its all of them, but as you say its the club board where the buck stops. Another 'illogical move' indeed. After many more, from Moyes to Ole to this. To be fair I see some logic in Ralf, but only if he becomes a proper DoF and not this consultant job, with Fletcher able to learn from one of the best. The state of players reflects the chaos of the post Fergie players, the shambolic recruitment (ole did not fix at all) and the stupid wages we insist on paying. Players are given stupid wages, often for not even paying, then we are surprised they lack killer motivation. To me bringing the toxic selfish ego of Ronnie into the mix was the final straw. Plus our youth system has not really improved and needs a proper overhaul We need a proper rebuild, not the Ole gloss one about being nice. With Ralf empowered to shake it all up and a new manager from teh summer.
Absolute rubbish post.
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This is interesting and worrying.
Rangnick tried to give the team specific pressing triggers for Wolves and they couldn't handle the instructions. Simpler instructions last night, still cak.
Says a lot about this dressing room. Lot of moaning, lot of hiding. Not much learning or improving.
Oh the irony. Nobody on here is expecting that at all. What Tuchel did is fairytale stuff. Hardly ever happens.
After 7/8 games I expected to see improvement though. I haven't seen any. We've played well for 45 mins in 7 games. That's less than under previous management team where we played well at Chelsea, home to Arsenal and away to Spurs.
New manager bounce must have skipped us eh?
Ralf isn't the Messiah he's been made out to be. Let's be honest here. Steven Gerrard outcoached him last night and we got extremely lucky. Wolves manager did last week too. We are being set up to fail from his tactics.
I think this best summaries the situation we're in. There is nothing we can do about it now, just have to hope for a decent finish in the league, get as far as we can in the CL and FA Cup and hope this god forsaken season ends quick.
You've assembled a squad of players that may be individually of a high level but all work at that highest level in different systems. Even if you get the right manager you're going to need another rebuild I think.
The scary part is we havent faced anyone remotely top quality yet. When we do, it will be another massacre!
It may be exaggerated but there is a lot of truth. Team was hugely under coached under Ole and his team, as exposed now by their struggles with Ralf. Ole had no top level tactical insight and that was reflected in how we played. Plus the so called recruitment overhaul is also a joke, look at Maguire, VDB and AWB. Ronnie to me also a massive mistake. Many of us felt Ole would never deliver and sorry but to many seem to have been obsessed with the past and idolosing Ole to see the truth. We need to demand the owners put a proper football structure in place. Clubs like City, Chelsea and Leicester, even Brentford, show it can be done. Also a lot more value for money than blowign cash on signings like Pogba.
People acting as if Tuchel is a one off. If he won the CL, does not mean we have to do the same.
What does need to happen is a response, Villa were bottom half near the relegation zone when Gerrard took over, this is an inexperienced coach, taking over a PL team and he has got them dominated Villa at United.
We have to see better, Under Ole it was all Ole and we were told lack of coaching was the reason, we got Ralf in and now its the players. Its also quite funny that we were told favourites FC but Ralf is starting McFred, Greenwood, Bruno, Rashford.
100%.
The squad is a mishmash of different players, there's no coherent idea behind it. Worse its massively overpaid and overindulged. We pay a squad that struggles to qualify for the Champions League as if its regularly challenging for top honours. There's a massive disconnect between perception and reality.
Think most of us have said until we have a team that is comfortable with keeping the ball we will always fail. That is not Ralf's fault, that is how this squad has been built. Great teams are also unselfish, we have too many are aren't.
Why is everything being leaked? Do other clubs have to put up with this?
He has a Dutch international sitting on the bench who played in a CL semi final. He could play an extra man in midfield to get some control but he won't.
Whose fault is that then? The players too?
Agreed- we've allowed ourselves to get to a point where we're rewarding players for what they might do rather than what they have done, alongside brining in different managers with different philosophies and therefore no football consistency. Hopefully we're taking steps to correct that now and I hope that RR alongside the coaches are allowed to assess the players and comment on who needs to be moved on and who should stay otherwise we're just going to be kicking the can down the road- we know there's issues in this squad.
One thing I hope he looks at though is midfield. I suspect he's been happy to surrender midfield to have a chance of attacking quickly from wide areas but with the wide players not performing well either I think we'd be much better of with a 3rd midfielder and looking to get some control of the game.
My worry, looking at it from the outside, is that Ralf has already given up.
He's already ditched his 4222, we're seeing reports that he's now given up trying to teach individual pressing triggers and is simplifying his instructions. We're already back to the players' comfort zone of 4231. How much longer until he just goes full pragmatic and starts playing poundshop Ole?
Maybe I'm over egging it but, from the outside, it feels like Ralf is slowly but surely surrendering to the demands of the dressing room. The more that happens the less likely it is that we get real, long-term change. In midfield, in anything.
I reckon we get through to June. Ralf goes. His 'consultancy' turns out to be nothing more than a sop. We get a new manager and the boom and bust cycle starts over. Nearly 10 years since we won the title. No surprise if we go another 10 years without a title either.
It wasn't. Bruno was almost playing as a second striker with Cavani. If anything it was a 4-2-2-1-1.
The problem is you have the two holding midfieldners in Fred and Mctominay, the wide players who are so wide in Rashford and Greenwood then a massive game between the holding players and Bruno / Cavani. This results in huge open spaces for any opposition with a 3 man midfield to basically waltz through. Its why I hate this bloody formation and I just don't get why RR keeps persisting with it.
Agree with the 1st part - just from looking at his body language on the touchline last night.
On the 2nd part, I think a couple more losses, which could easily happen as we play villa and brentford away and Ralf walks. If not, when we get dumped by Atletico in the CL he will certainly go then.
Genuinely didn't think even united fans would turn on Ralf this early on.
Do we need pep or klopp to come in here and teach the players how to run fast and how to pass the ball 5 yards with a bit of pace on it?
Do we need pep or klopp to come in here and teach the players how to run fast and how to pass the ball 5 yards with a bit of pace on it?
The bolded parts worry me as they seem to be spot-on. I agree that there is no merit in forcing a system on players just for the sake of it, but having to give in because the players cannot process the instructions is something else ...
Things that are going well under RR is that we are shipping less goals. My hope is that his 1st aim was to come in and stop us leaking silly goals in games, always having to come from behind and in time a more expansive style of play will emerge. Granted, RR personally, doesn't have much time.
All the we are a poorly coached team with no tactics etc comments - would appear that our players are a bigger problem.
All the we are a poorly coached team with no tactics etc comments - would appear that our players are a bigger problem.
We've improved in quite a few metrics off the ball so to say there's no improvement is nonsense.
The key issue is that there were too many problems that needed immediate attention. Can we now build on what the players have learnt so far to then focus on being better on the ball and making better decisions.
The key issue is that there were too many problems that needed immediate attention. Can we now build on what the players have learnt so far to then focus on being better on the ball and making better decisions.
I guess it's a positive that we have somewhat shored up our defense. Four goals conceded in Ralf's seven games is not too bad, given where we came from. I know the opposition has not been the strongest, but under Ole we let in four vs. both Leicester and Watford alone.
Well I think this is where you have to hope the board acknowledge there's an issue and something needs to be done.
My hope is that RR has been given a mandate to size up the squad whilst at the same time trying to steady the ship. As such in trying to steady the ship he might have had to adapt some of his own plans e.g. not playing 4222 however this shouldn't stop him from looking at the squad and being able to say who has the right mix of ability/mentality to stay.
That's the hope anyway, as you say if he's more focussed on doing well enough to be the permanent manager himself or doesn't have the support from the execs (as this would likely result in us having to take big hits on some players and then investing even more going forward) then I agree it feels like we'll just be where we were with no progression.
Stats can sometimes lie to your eyes, but according to the data our press is more successful and our xG is lower then Oles time.
However, our ball retention is shocking in recent games; and was poor under Ole. I cannot say a manager is clueless when he coaches players who refuse to pass to one another and are a danger to themselves on the ball in our half. As he basically spoke about at full time.
Untill that changes, whoever is in charge has their work cut out.
I'd agree with some of this assessment.
However I don't think we'd win anything with the current set of players if they think they've "already made it". Most of them have won feck all. I'd rather have Ralf sort this squad out, get rid of anyone who think "they've made it" and refuse to run more. Look at Liverpool, at City their players work socks off week in week out. That's the only way to consistently win in the modern football, work really hard and work as a team.
We'll have to suffer this for a while but imo it's the only way if we want to be back challenging again. No pain no gain. I don't think he's a wrong appointment but actually what we really needed long ago. We need to fully support him and not the lazy entitled players this time.
Then it should be a board problem, everyone know what is the philosophy of RR presenting and what he will implement.
The board once again want to change the different play style with inability players. Van Gaal (in possession) to Mourinho (counter attack), now OLE (counter attack) to RR (aggressive pressing).
That's not really the formation though as the whole purpose of 4222 is to have a compact midfield that is close enough to make quick short passes.
I do agree we’re too stretched right now. he's trying to fit in those players who are better out wide and it breaks the whole point of the system.
We had the same issue with 4231, the two in midfield left with few options and often outnumbered. 343 would make far more sense with our current players. It allows for a bit of width but you've still got the bodies to not be outnumbered in any area.
Do I? Which players do I rate?
It's not that I do not rate the manager either.. But he's clearly not as good as some had us believe. There's a reason he's only managed 80 odd games in the last 10 years.
I'm leaning toward that direction. But I don't even think that it's about systems, too many of our players are individualists. They may be successful in a different environment surrounded by more altruistic players but you can't stockpile that kind of player and expect them to work as a team. I'm specifically thinking about the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood or McTominay.
Nothing can do either Pep (Players cannot pass) and Klopp (Players are unwilling to press)
I don't get why people always ignore the plan obvious. You want control play 3 in the middle. How hard is that. You want to provide chances for the striker don't have wingers like Rashford and Greenwood playing shooting all the time. Further more instruct them to pass.
It's easy to blame the manager and then the players.. But just call it how you see it. It's a lot easier.
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