[MadDogg]

This narrative that DDG is somehow costing United bucketloads of goals by not coming out as much as Ederson blows my mind. He's been one of the best goalkeepers on earth for most of the last decade, and remains so.

He's been one of the worst keepers in the league for most of the last four season ffs. His mistakes have cost us over and over again. That season that we lost all those semi-finals? He was directly at fault for three of the five goals we conceded in the Europa League and FA Cup semis. The following season he literally chickened out and made himself as small as possible to avoid contact for the the Kluivert goal which knocked us out of the CL. His career-worst form in the final months of 18/19 was the main reason we didn't make the top 4 and qualify for CL. Those are just the big obvious moments, he's made constant mistakes throughout that time.

He was once an incredible shot-stopper. Probably the best I've seen in my 25 years watching the sport. But even then he was very limited with his all-round game, and once his shot-stopping dropped to average levels and his mistakes started piling up he became a huge weakness in the team. One year it might just be form, but it's now been, other than a few months at the start of last season, four years of this.

 

[sullydnl]

It's not a narrative. It's supported by data and is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. The truth is, he's a poor goalkeeper now.

Tbf I'm not sure the idea that he costs United a bucketload of goals through sweeping alone is supported.

That John Harrison guy's stats put the difference between Alisson and De Gea in that regard at around 4 expected goals. And that's with De Gea having played in a side that put less emphasis on sweeping, so his stats may improve slightly if forced into attempting to sweep more in our current set-up. So in isolation it's not too bad.

De Gea's problem is when you combine his sweeping and cross claiming and passing. You could live with him being poor at one but all three is a killer. Again going by that same guy's stats, someone like Alisson had nearly a 14 expected goal advantage over De Gea across those three elements of the role last season. Which is a lot to give up before you even get to stopping shots.

 

[Alemar]

That John Harrison guy's stats put the difference between Alisson and De Gea in that regard at around 4 expected goals.

that John Harrison guy hates de Gea, we’ve seen it for the last couple of years.

 

[sullydnl]

that John Harrison guy hates de Gea, we’ve seen it for the last couple of years.

Nah, he's praised him plenty too in terms of his shot-stopping.

The problem is that De Gea's stats are generally bad, so there's no way to comment on them without criticising De Gea. That doesn't imply an agenda, it just implies that De Gea isn't all that good.

 

[JB7]

that John Harrison guy hates de Gea, we’ve seen it for the last couple of years.

Anyone who actually uses the data available is not simply “hating De Gea”, the reality is they are just presenting the facts. He does well in shot stopping, by every other metric is an abysmal goalkeeper, there are no two ways about it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tbf I'm not sure the idea that he costs United a bucketload of goals through sweeping alone is supported.

That John Harrison guy's stats put the difference between Alisson and De Gea in that regard at around 4 expected goals. And that's with De Gea having played in a side that put less emphasis on sweeping, so his stats may improve slightly if forced into attempting to sweep more in our current set-up. So in isolation it's not too bad.

De Gea's problem is when you combine his sweeping and cross claiming and passing. You could live with him being poor at one but all three is a killer. Again going by that same guy's stats, someone like Alisson had nearly a 14 expected goal advantage over De Gea across those three elements of the role last season. Which is a lot to give up before you even get to stopping shots.

Jesus. A 14 goal swing is massive.

And that’s ignoring all the harder to quantify stuff. Organisational skills. Talking to defenders. Making himself available for the ball. All of which he fails the eye (and ear!) test on.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s got to the stage with De Gea that unless ETH replaces him either during this season or next summer I’ll have serious doubts that he actually knows what he’s doing. It’s such an obvious and influential problem in our team.

 

[V.O.]

It’s got to the stage with De Gea that unless ETH replaces him either during this season or next summer I’ll have serious doubts that he actually knows what he’s doing. It’s such an obvious and influential problem in our team.

In that case you'd be doing a lot better than I am to not already have serious doubts after the Arnautovic bid and the 89th minute Ole Special round of subs.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In that case you'd be doing a lot better than I am to not have serious doubts already after the Arnautovic bid and the 89th minute Ole Special round of subs.

The Arnautovic thing rocked my faith alright.

I’m ok with the subs as apparently they were stripped and ready to come on from the 81st minute but there wasn’t any stoppage of play for the next 8 minutes.

 

[Oranges038]

This narrative that DDG is somehow costing United bucketloads of goals by not coming out as much as Ederson blows my mind. He's been one of the best goalkeepers on earth for most of the last decade, and remains so.

It's not really a narrative.

He's really really good at one thing, but every other aspect of his job he's one of the worst in the league and has been for a long time.

 

[Based Adnan]

This narrative that DDG is somehow costing United bucketloads of goals by not coming out as much as Ederson blows my mind. He's been one of the best goalkeepers on earth for most of the last decade, and remains so.

The best goalkeepers on earth don't get dropped from their national teams in favour of the goalkeepers from Brighton and Brentford

 

[Wilt]

This narrative that DDG is somehow costing United bucketloads of goals by not coming out as much as Ederson blows my mind. He's been one of the best goalkeepers on earth for most of the last decade, and remains so.

De Gea is not even the best goalkeeper in Manchester

 

[sullydnl]

Jesus. A 14 goal swing is massive.

And that’s ignoring all the harder to quantify stuff. Organisational skills. Talking to defenders. Making himself available for the ball. All of which he fails the eye (and ear!) test on.

Plus Alisson is better at 1v1s on top of that. In total yer man's stats had Alisson being worth just under 16 expected goals more than De Gea across shot-stopping, prevention and distribution last season. And that's with De Gea having had a good season.

Though tbf to De Gea he actually didn't fare too badly against Ederson across those same stats, being less than a single expected goal behind. That guy definitely has his own flaws as well.

 

[Bebestation]

De Gea’s goalkeeping is as great as Wan Bissaka’s slide tackling.

It’s reliant on one world class thing and nothing else.

 

[Lyng]

Its a bit weird to read a poster saying that he isnt much worse then Ederson and then people compare him to Alisson? Ederson isnt that much better than De Gea because of his flaws. They are different than De Gea's and ultimately he is better, but Ederson is not that great. I would honestly much rather have Sanchez.
De Gea has massive issues and ultimately we cannot play with him in a high line and expect it to work well. That goes for Maguire, Shaw, AwB, Mc Tominay.
We need to change all of these players in order for us to actually be able to play well in a high line.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

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Didn't get enough criticism with that "save". Handed them a goal with awful goalkeeping pretty much.

Interesting thread but it also shows how Fred let us down too by ball watching. Sanchez also had poor handling on the day but his defenders were alert to the danger.

 

[Telsim]

This narrative that DDG is somehow costing United bucketloads of goals by not coming out as much as Ederson blows my mind. He's been one of the best goalkeepers on earth for most of the last decade, and remains so.

No way this isn't a WUM!

 

[sullydnl]

De Gea’s goalkeeping is as great as Wan Bissaka’s slide tackling.

It’s reliant on one world class thing and nothing else.

I get the comparison but it's not quite the same thing as shot-stopping remains the single most value-providing aspect of goalkeeping, in a way slide tackling doesn't for a fullback. De Gea is one-dimensional but his one dimension carries him a lot more than AWB's does.

Ronaldo is maybe a closer comparison in that they're both very good at a centrally important aspect of their job (shot-stopping vs goalscoring) but their game beyond that drags them down to a point where the team would likely function better if they were replaced.

Edit: should say I mean the current, in-decline version of Ronaldo. Peak Ronaldo was a different matter.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I get the comparison but it's not quite the same thing as shot-stopping remains the single most value-providing aspect of goalkeeping, in a way slide tackling doesn't for a fullback. De Gea is one-dimensional but his one dimension carries him a lot more than AWB's does.

Ronaldo is maybe a closer comparison in that they're both very good at a centrally important aspect of their job (shot-stopping vs goalscoring) but their game beyond that drags them down to a point where the team would likely function better without them.

You can build a modern team around a peak Ronaldo though. I'm not sure you can do the same with DDG.

 

[Bebestation]

I get the comparison but it's not quite the same thing as shot-stopping remains the single most value-providing aspect of goalkeeping, in a way slide tackling doesn't for a fullback. De Gea is one-dimensional but his one dimension carries him a lot more than AWB's does.

Ronaldo is maybe a closer comparison in that they're both very good at a centrally important aspect of their job (shot-stopping vs goalscoring) but their game beyond that drags them down to a point where the team would likely function better if they were replaced.

Edit: should say I mean the current, in-decline version of Ronaldo. Peak Ronaldo was a different matter.

Well again this is why De Gea is such a big poisonous player for us.

As you say, the one most significant thing a Goalkeeper needs to do is keep the ball out the net - so this leads to so many people thinking that this guy is not a problem

Free kick after Free kick we have a goalkeeper that has no ability to come out and use his hands the way every other top goalkeeper does. Because this free kick leads to the rest of the defense scared as the ball bounces off 5 defenders and 3 opponents - the goal that is scored is then pointed at our defense rather than De Gea.

This is then the same with the high line. Maguire or whoever gets pointed out because the space between the goalkeeper and the defender is absolutely phenomenal not because of a tactic - but because of De Gea’s inability to come off his line.

His pass to Fred where Fred completely miss controlled it under pressure and nearly led to a penalty - again that can be pointed out to Fred or by the creator of the problem which is De Gea.

What about the crosses that Shaw never reaches on the other side as it’s crossed by the opponent? Everyone blames him for being on the other side of the pitch and never tracking back in time but no one points out De Gea which had the ability to stop the cross reaching the furthest corner by coming out and trying to hold on to the cross or at least try to deviate it to help the defenders.

Corners, Free kicks, crosses, penalties, high lines, poor passing, poor communication - how can this be so worth it just for his reflexes?

His reflexes then are primarily used by a team that have no element of control in their game -

so he ultimately looks great during a problem of poor football that he himself creates.

He is a poison for me because he looks great in a shit that he himself creates and causes the rest of the first 11.

 

[RopersReturn]

Really feel his best days are behind him now plus, he spills the ball rather too often allowing the opposition shots on the rebound. Some of the top keepers have learnt to dribble out of the box nowadays and can accurately kick a ball too.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its a bit weird to read a poster saying that he isnt much worse then Ederson and then people compare him to Alisson? Ederson isnt that much better than De Gea because of his flaws. They are different than De Gea's and ultimately he is better, but Ederson is not that great. I would honestly much rather have Sanchez.
De Gea has massive issues and ultimately we cannot play with him in a high line and expect it to work well. That goes for Maguire, Shaw, AwB, Mc Tominay.
We need to change all of these players in order for us to actually be able to play well in a high line.

Ederdon’s strengths really suit his team and his weaknesses are compensated by his team. Playing for City it’s crucial to have a keeper who is good with the ball at his feet and quick off his line. Shot stopping is less critical because he faces less shots.

De Gea might do a good job for a team battling against relegation (defending deep and lots of shots to face*) but he’s a disaster for a team that wants/hopes to control games and pin the opposition back.


*Although even his shot-stopping seems to be streaky. Brilliant in first half of last season, shite in second half.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Ederson is mediocre at a lot of being a goalkeeper stuff and he would be shite at United as Fred and McTominay the sieves allow attack after attack and shot after shot at him. City have Rodri and before that Fernandinho by comparison to our chancers in midfield, and Dias, Walker and Laporte at the back.

De Gea can at least save the ball well and consistently (when he's playing well at least).

Having said that I have reservations over his form as he seems to be the ultimate confidence keeper. If he is in the right mood, he can get in a run where it looks impossible to get past him. If his confidence is low he can be absolute rubbish. His general demeanour in the Brighton game seemed more like two seasons ago than the start of last season. It's a concern. It's also a concern that his coming for the ball, distribution and command seem to be getting worse as he gets older instead of getting better. I swear he was never outstanding at it, but was far better at this in the middle of the last decade when he was considered one of the best keepers in the world.

 

[Lyng]

Ederdon’s strengths really suit his team and his weaknesses are compensated by his team. Playing for City it’s crucial to have a keeper who is good with the ball at his feet and quick off his line. Shot stopping is less critical because he faces less shots.

De Gea might do a good job for a team battling against relegation (defending deep and lots of shots to face*) but he’s a disaster for a team that wants/hopes to control games and pin the opposition back.


*Although even his shot-stopping seems to be streaky. Brilliant in first half of last season, shite in second half.

Which is also why Ederson is a weird example specifically when looking at United. he would be terrible for us with our current squad.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

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Didn't get enough criticism with that "save". Handed them a goal with awful goalkeeping pretty much.

I think thats complete nonsense to be honest... the ball came through a crowd of players so he had to dive late - there was also no way he could hold the shot so he did what any keeper should do - push it away from goal.

I get criticising him for the first goal, but no way he deserves criticism for the second.

 

[JB7]

I think thats complete nonsense to be honest... the ball came through a crowd of players so he had to dive late - there was also no way he could hold the shot so he did what any keeper should do - push it away from goal.

I get criticising him for the first goal, but no way he deserves criticism for the second.

It didn't come through a crowd of players at all. I was right behind it and he had a clean view of the ball travelling in a straight line into the middle of the goal directly from the moment their lad cut inside Shaw to shoot. It's a bread and butter hold for the majority of top level goalkeepers. The issue is initially his positioning, when the ball is switched he is out of position (as any goalkeeper would be) but he then overcompensates by going too far over towards his post, you can see him trying to correct himself constantly with the unnatural foot movements as their attacker is moving towards the goal, as such he never properly sets himself for the shot. That's why he is slow getting down given how relatively weak the shot was, and the reason he couldn't hold it. It's no secret that I'm no fan of De Gea and this is a tendency of his to push shots back into dangerous areas when we should be holding them, however on this one I do think even De Gea would drop on the ball hold it probably 7 times out of 10. I'd expect that in himself he is more likely to be disappointed with the second goal much more so than the first because he never stops those balls across the face of his goal (obviously he should do as it's pretty basic but it's not his game at all) whereas he would know he should be holding the second.

By the way pushing the ball directly across the face of your own goal is not pushing it away from goal at all. He never once looks that way and has no idea what is there, so he's pushing it away blindly and into territory where he would not be in a position to stop any shot. At least if you push the ball directly forwards you know you have two centre halves to deal with it and you are also in a position where any rebound shot has to go past you. Pushing it wide in theory is the right thing to do but not when it's across the face of goal and into a blind spot. That's the difference with the Sanchez one in the second half, he knows he should be doing better the shot but he knows his centre back is there to clear the ball because he can see him.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It didn't come through a crowd of players at all. I was right behind it and he had a clean view of the ball travelling in a straight line into the middle of the goal directly from the moment their lad cut inside Shaw to shoot. It's a bread and butter hold for the majority of top level goalkeepers. The issue is initially his positioning, when the ball is switched he is out of position (as any goalkeeper would be) but he then overcompensates by going too far over towards his post, you can see him trying to correct himself constantly with the unnatural foot movements as their attacker is moving towards the goal, as such he never properly sets himself for the shot. That's why he is slow getting down given how relatively weak the shot was, and the reason he couldn't hold it. It's no secret that I'm no fan of De Gea and this is a tendency of his to push shots back into dangerous areas when we should be holding them, however on this one I do think even De Gea would drop on the ball hold it probably 7 times out of 10. I'd expect that in himself he is more likely to be disappointed with the second goal much more so than the first because he never stops those balls across the face of his goal (obviously he should do as it's pretty basic but it's not his game at all) whereas he would know he should be holding the second.

By the way pushing the ball directly across the face of your own goal is not pushing it away from goal at all. He never once looks that way and has no idea what is there, so he's pushing it away blindly and into territory where he would not be in a position to stop any shot. At least if you push the ball directly forwards you know you have two centre halves to deal with it and you are also in a position where any rebound shot has to go past you. Pushing it wide in theory is the right thing to do but not when it's across the face of goal and into a blind spot. That's the difference with the Sanchez one in the second half, he knows he should be doing better the shot but he knows his centre back is there to clear the ball because he can see him.

"coming through a crowd" is probably the wrong term - but Lallana clearly sticks out a foot to try get to it, so De Gea has to react to the potential of that happening as well as the shot.

It's also not a slow shot, this idea that its "only" 50mph is a bit weird - whilst not the most powerful, it wasn't a weak shot in the slightest- don't think most keepers are holding onto that at all.

 

[redcucumber]

This narrative that DDG is somehow costing United bucketloads of goals by not coming out as much as Ederson blows my mind. He's been one of the best goalkeepers on earth for most of the last decade, and remains so.

De Gea hasn't been one of the best goalkeepers in the world for fecking ages. He's not even close to being the best Spanish keeper. He needs upgrading as soon as possible.

 

[Skills]

Plus Alisson is better at 1v1s on top of that. In total yer man's stats had Alisson being worth just under 16 expected goals more than De Gea across shot-stopping, prevention and distribution last season. And that's with De Gea having had a good season.

Though tbf to De Gea he actually didn't fare too badly against Ederson across those same stats, being less than a single expected goal behind. That guy definitely has his own flaws as well.

Alisson's the best GK in the world. Who do you want us to sign to replicate that kind of performance?

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Alisson's the best GK in the world. Who do you want us to sign to replicate that kind of performance?

De Gea is the most highly paid keeper in the world. We might not be able to sign anybody to exactly replicate Alisson's performance levels but it's not unreasonable to expect De Gea to at least be significantly closer given the amount he is earning.

 

[JB7]

"coming through a crowd" is probably the wrong term - but Lallana clearly sticks out a foot to try get to it, so De Gea has to react to the potential of that happening as well as the shot.

It's also not a slow shot, this idea that its "only" 50mph is a bit weird - whilst not the most powerful, it wasn't a weak shot in the slightest- don't think most keepers are holding onto that at all.

Like I said, if he hasn't overcompensated positionally, he's dropping on the ball and it's an easy hold. The term weak shot is relative, as he agree it's not without power but it is a very weak shot to be causing a goalkeeper such difficulty in the middle of his goal. The reason he hasn't held it is because he's late getting down because he's never properly set for the shot, his feet are the giveaway for that. I agree with how he's gone down he isn't holding it but that's more a positional issue than a handling issue although like I said before he shouldn't be pushing it into a blind spot.

 

[Skills]

De Gea is the most highly paid keeper in the world. We might not be able to sign anybody to exactly replicate Alisson's performance levels but it's not unreasonable to expect De Gea to at least be significantly closer given the amount he is earning.

We can't do that anything about that now though. It's not as if we can retrospectively go and reduce his salary.

Should we be renewing his contract? No.

We need to be in the market for another keeper, but anyone who thinks it's pissing easy getting a keeper close to Alison is delusional. Liverpool went through years and years of piss poor keepers before they landed on Allison. It's by far the hardest position to recruit for in football. You can spend as much as you want, but there's still a chance you might end up with a Kepa and then you're fecked at that point.

 

[sullydnl]

Alisson's the best GK in the world. Who do you want us to sign to replicate that kind of performance?

I don't expect us to sign someone to replicate that. But as those numbers suggest, there's quite a big gap between Alisson and De Gea, wherein many goalkeepers dwell. I'd quite like us to level up to that degree if we can, once doing so is practical.

 

[JB7]

We can't do that anything about that now though. It's not as if we can retrospectively go and reduce his salary.

Should we be renewing his contract? No.

We need to be in the market for another keeper, but anyone who thinks it's pissing easy getting a keeper close to Alison is delusional. Liverpool went through years and years of piss poor keepers before they landed on Allison. It's by far the hardest position to recruit for in football. You can spend as much as you want, but there's still a chance you might end up with a Kepa and then you're fecked at that point.

In the interests of fairness here probably the two best alternatives to Allison both changed clubs last summer for free and £10m respectively. There was an excellent goalkeeper that joined Wolves for £7m. So it's not as if there aren't goalkeepers out there, we just haven't been looking.

 

[Skills]

In the interests of fairness here probably the two best alternatives to Allison both changed clubs last summer for free and £10m respectively. There was an excellent goalkeeper that joined Wolves for £7m. So it's not as if there aren't goalkeepers out there, we just haven't been looking.

I don't know who you're talking about?

I think it's a stretch to assume, that just pulling a keeper from a smaller club and plugging him here at OT would go smoothly. Keepers are weird because they're almost playing a singles game in a team sport. If they don't have the right mentality/mindset for it, the capitulation is usually dramatic.

 

[romufc]

I dont get why people think he is one of the best?

I mean yes he is a very good shot stopper but that's all he has. I expect my keeper to be a top draw shot stopper.

Can he claim crosses? No
Can he punch? No
Can he kick? No
Can he command his box? No

The Brighton game, however much we fault our defence, DDG let us down badly on both goals. First goal he dives and collects the ball

Second goal, parried to an attacker.

Also, we are playing a high line, he needs to come out.

 

[JB7]

I don't know who you're talking about?

I think it's a stretch to assume, that just pulling a keeper from a smaller club and plugging him here at OT would go smoothly. Keepers are weird because they're almost playing a singles game in a team sport. If they don't have the right mentality/mindset for it, the capitulation is usually dramatic.

Donnarrumma and Mike Maignan. And Jose Sa was the third.

And no, goalkeepers are absolutely not playing a singles game, that could not be more wrong, they are as much a part of the team as anyone else and their relationship the their defenders is one of the most important relationships anywhere on the pitch. I don't doubt De Gea thinks he's playing a singles game, given so many of his interviews last season where he came out slagging the defending off without realising he'd been doing nothing whatsoever to help the teams defending, but the reality is creating a disconnect between the defence and goalkeeper is a sure fire way to concede a hell of a lot of goals.

 

[Skills]

Donnarrumma and Mike Maignan. And Jose Sa was the third.

And no, goalkeepers are absolutely not playing a singles game, that could not be more wrong, they are as much a part of the team as anyone else and their relationship the their defenders is one of the most important relationships anywhere on the pitch. I don't doubt De Gea thinks he's playing a singles game, given so many of his interviews last season where he came out slagging the defending off without realising he'd been doing nothing whatsoever to help the teams defending, but the reality is creating a disconnect between the defence and goalkeeper is a sure fire way to concede a hell of a lot of goals.

It's more the pressure of a singles game. There's no way to hide as a goalkeeper. If you're a midfielder, forward, or defender it's a lot easier to hide. As a keeper you're the last line, nobody's going to save a shot on your behalf.

That's why recruiting the right keeper is so much harder.

 

[izec]

He is bang average and still should have done better on both goals.

 

[JB7]

It's more the pressure of a singles game. There's no way to hide as a goalkeeper. If you're a midfielder, forward, or defender it's a lot easier to hide. As a keeper you're the last line, nobody's going to save a shot on your behalf.

That's why recruiting the right keeper is so much harder.

Believe me I'm fully aware of the pressures of playing in goal and the difficulties one has in recruiting the right one. However, recruiting to replace a poor one is a much easier task than recruiting to replace a good one. Hence all the various improvements within the team when the relatively average Henderson played ahead of De Gea.

As I said, if you want the long term replacement rather than a short term upgrade, as close to risk free as possible there were two screaming us in the face last summer, Donnarumma was available on a free and was aware of the pressures of playing for a big club, Maignan has been a nailed on top level goalkeeper for some time and changed clubs for circa £10m. If you wanted to take a chance there were numerous goalkeepers changing hands for not a lot of money with promise such as Kobel and Maximiano. If you prefer players 29/30 there are a whole host of them available for not a great deal of money.

I agree recruiting for a goalkeeper is not easy but it'd be made a lot easier if the club didn't have its head buried in the sand. And it's not as if our current goalkeeper has ever really dealt with the pressure overly well, how often is one error closely followed up by another?