[fallengt]

Would Spain drop DDG if he was best goal keeper in the world?

 

[Skills]

Believe me I'm fully aware of the pressures of playing in goal and the difficulties one has in recruiting the right one. However, recruiting to replace a poor one is a much easier task than recruiting to replace a good one. Hence all the various improvements within the team when the relatively average Henderson played ahead of De Gea.

As I said, if you want the long term replacement rather than a short term upgrade, as close to risk free as possible there were two screaming us in the face last summer, Donnarumma was available on a free and was aware of the pressures of playing for a big club, Maignan has been a nailed on top level goalkeeper for some time and changed clubs for circa £10m. If you wanted to take a chance there were numerous goalkeepers changing hands for not a lot of money with promise such as Kobel and Maximiano. If you prefer players 29/30 there are a whole host of them available for not a great deal of money.

I agree recruiting for a goalkeeper is not easy but it'd be made a lot easier if the club didn't have its head buried in the sand. And it's not as if our current goalkeeper has ever really dealt with the pressure overly well, how often is one error closely followed up by another?

I think the overall issue is that the club just isn't proactive in the market. Our recruitment works something like - the manager wants, and the club will then start looking. I'm not surprised the club wasn't in the market for a keeper last season because it looked like to them Henderson was going to be the one.

It's a poor way of running. Players are extremely expensive, unless you approach them at the right time (contract situation etc). So you can't work off this system, where you just go out and buy exactly the players you need at this moment in time without getting bent over by the selling club.

The club should be constantly looking in the market for good players at the right price. That might actually just mean, you have to occasionally ignore your first team managers immediate wants/needs for the long term benefit of the club. But we just don't have that kind of foresight, and if we do work like that (Amad and Pellestri were 2 examples of us going a little left field), we then don't stick to our guns on decisions that were probably made with sound logic earlier.

 

[Leftback99]

I dont get why people think he is one of the best?

I mean yes he is a very good shot stopper but that's all he has. I expect my keeper to be a top draw shot stopper.

Can he claim crosses? No
Can he punch? No
Can he kick? No
Can he command his box? No

The Brighton game, however much we fault our defence, DDG let us down badly on both goals. First goal he dives and collects the ball

Second goal, parried to an attacker.

Also, we are playing a high line, he needs to come out.

Most people can't see past saves, they don't notice anything else with GKs. The more shots on our goal, the better he looks in highlights. The worse the team is, is the more shots he has to save, like last season.

He's an ever present in some of our worst ever sides over the last few years but gets a free pass.

 

[RopersReturn]

Can’t disagree with this-

“Quite simply we cannot play modern, progressive, high line football with De Gea in goal. Every single CB we have signed since Rio and Vidic have looked crap - the consistent factor is the keeper behind them. He doesnt communicate and he doesnt sweep to collect the ball. For a slow CB like Maguire its a nightmare match, because he (and the other CB) simply have so much more ground to cover than their equivalents at other clubs.”

 

[Skills]

Can’t disagree with this-

“Quite simply we cannot play modern, progressive, high line football with De Gea in goal. Every single CB we have signed since Rio and Vidic have looked crap - the consistent factor is the keeper behind them. He doesnt communicate and he doesnt sweep to collect the ball. For a slow CB like Maguire its a nightmare match, because he (and the other CB) simply have so much more ground to cover than their equivalents at other clubs.”

That's more of a Maguire problem. Smalling and Blind did fine playing a high line and De Gea was sweeping. Manuel Neuer can't make Maguire look like a CB fit for a high line.

 

[sullydnl]

I dont get why people think he is one of the best?

I mean yes he is a very good shot stopper but that's all he has. I expect my keeper to be a top draw shot stopper.

Can he claim crosses? No
Can he punch? No
Can he kick? No
Can he command his box? No

The Brighton game, however much we fault our defence, DDG let us down badly on both goals. First goal he dives and collects the ball

Second goal, parried to an attacker.

Also, we are playing a high line, he needs to come out.

Partly I think it's because the thing he's good at (shot stopping) is relatively easy to see and value. If a shot is going in and he makes a great save, he has saved you a goal. Over the course of a season of watching him you come away with a relatively firm sense of how much his shot-stopping has contributed to preventing goals.

Whereas the things he's weak at (sweeping, claiming and distribution) are both more run-of-the-mill actions and also more difficult to account for in terms of direct impact. We might understand that claiming more crosses ultimately prevents goals being scored, but the degree to which that's the case isn't as apparent because you never actually see the chances that don't happen.

Obviously that's where stats come in as they help put value on how many goals are prevented through claiming, sweeping etc. but some people are still very resistant to stats as well. So they effectively end up over-valuing shot-stopping as a result.

 

[sullydnl]

Can’t disagree with this-

“Quite simply we cannot play modern, progressive, high line football with De Gea in goal. Every single CB we have signed since Rio and Vidic have looked crap - the consistent factor is the keeper behind them. He doesnt communicate and he doesnt sweep to collect the ball. For a slow CB like Maguire its a nightmare match, because he (and the other CB) simply have so much more ground to cover than their equivalents at other clubs.”

The bold is a massively over-simplified argument. The defenders we've signed since Rio/Vidic may have all looked crap but that's largely true of the players we've signed in every position. Poor recruitment is poor recruitment, you can't just pin it on De Gea because it impacts defence as much as everywhere else.

It's not like any of those defenders have or are likely to prove to be top class players anywhere else either. There is nothing any goalkeeper can do to stop a Lindelof being a Lindelof.

 

[ti vu]

Tweet

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Didn't get enough criticism with that "save". Handed them a goal with awful goalkeeping pretty much.

I think it's harsh here if you only look at handling separately. Watching the replay DDG only got to the shot by his fingers.

Perhaps the goalkeeping expert may debate about his positioning, body posture, etc... but I doubt there is much you can technically do with finger against curled shot is technical shot. It's not about the speed/ power.

On our defending for the goal, it's a complete mess. I don't understand what McTominay positioning for the press. The way he positioned himself, he just randomly disappeared from tactical playboard, especially when the first line press broke. Eriksen, and Dalot could have done with a tactical foul there. Then the whole defending for second goal was a mess. Martinez backpedaling too quick. No attempt of trying to play an offside on Welbeck to further Brighton numerical disadvantage; reducing their options and slow down the counter (perhaps he panicks with the first goal, and Welbeck overall movement?). Fred was ball watching and unaware of the surrounding other than what's in front of him (never bothered to check). Shaw arguably should have done better too. Left footer on the right inside the box would 90% cut inside. It's not like this was Robben, RVP, Messi, that you couldn't stop them knowing what they would do. Shaw was very flat footed. He was not beaten by feint, but he was all reactive, instead of be one step ahead.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

That's more of a Maguire problem. Smalling and Blind did fine playing a high line and De Gea was sweeping. Manuel Neuer can't make Maguire look like a CB fit for a high line.

Smalling and Blind played in a system which was essentially predicated around the defence having to do as little work as possible, at the cost of any form of creativity. The style of play under Van Gaal when Smalling and Blind were the centre back pairing made it relatively easy on the defence because it essentially removed any risk aspect from our play, meaning we were very good at retaining possession (second only to Arsenal that season) but absolutely useless at creating anything from it.

If you want to play a high line without entirely sacrificing that risk aspect which is so crucial to chance creation, your keeper needs to play their part as a sweeper. Maguire's lack of recovery pace might well be a problem but, in my opinion, De Gea's flat out refusal to leave his line is a much, much bigger one. I have seen teams play a high line successfully with fairly slow centre backs. Hummels has never been quick, Blind isn't fast, and even Pique wasn't rapid. However, I have never seen a team play a high line successfully whilst also having a goalkeeper who will not leave their line. It just is not feasible.

 

[romufc]

Partly I think it's because the thing he's good at (shot stopping) is relatively easy to see and value. If a shot is going in and he makes a great save, he has saved you a goal. Over the course of a season of watching him you come away with a relatively firm sense of how much his shot-stopping has contributed to preventing goals.

Whereas the things he's weak at (sweeping, claiming and distribution) are both more run-of-the-mill actions and also more difficult to account for in terms of direct impact. We might understand that claiming more crosses ultimately prevents goals being scored, but the degree to which that's the case isn't as apparent because you never actually see the chances that don't happen.

Obviously that's where stats come in as they help put value on how many goals are prevented through claiming, sweeping etc. but some people are still very resistant to stats as well. So they effectively end up over-valuing shot-stopping as a result.

Exactly, any half decent keeper should be making saves anyway. The worst thing is so many people keep saying without DDG where would we be?

I mean that is nonsense because even last season, goals like Bernado Silva cost us. This season, I see everyone criticising Maguire already but DDG could have made sure we dont concede those goals against Brighton.

The ball over the top, come kick it out, he is actually very poor at everything else.

Whether people like it or not, Ddg is prone to make 1/2 mistakes a game, it puts us under pressure. Even when he kicks it long, they are rubbish kicks. Look at Ederson, Allison, their long kicks are aimed at a player's chest. Not a hoof and then we lose the second ball because he is too scared of passing short.

 

[Zetrio2002]

But De Gea is faster. Other keepers would see the ball slip under their belly into goal or completely miss the ball.

 

[Phil Osophy]

Would Spain drop DDG if he was best goal keeper in the world?

Actually he wouldn't need to be a world beater to go with Spain if we look at the rest of their keepers. They play for Brighton, Brentford and Ath Bilbao, decent GKs at best and nothing else. De Gea isn't even that.

How the guy is allowed to be here starting games and as one of the best paid keepers in the world (if not the best) tells us everything about the club and how it's been managed in the last decade. There's no one at the driver's seat.

 

[bosnian_red]

I think it's harsh here if you only look at handling separately. Watching the replay DDG only got to the shot by his fingers.

Perhaps the goalkeeping expert may debate about his positioning, body posture, etc... but I doubt there is much you can technically do with finger against curled shot is technical shot. It's not about the speed/ power.

On our defending for the goal, it's a complete mess. I don't understand what McTominay positioning for the press. The way he positioned himself, he just randomly disappeared from tactical playboard, especially when the first line press broke. Eriksen, and Dalot could have done with a tactical foul there. Then the whole defending for second goal was a mess. Martinez backpedaling too quick. No attempt of trying to play an offside on Welbeck to further Brighton numerical disadvantage; reducing their options and slow down the counter (perhaps he panicks with the first goal, and Welbeck overall movement?). Fred was ball watching and unaware of the surrounding other than what's in front of him (never bothered to check). Shaw arguably should have done better too. Left footer on the right inside the box would 90% cut inside. It's not like this was Robben, RVP, Messi, that you couldn't stop them knowing what they would do. Shaw was very flat footed. He was not beaten by feint, but he was all reactive, instead of be one step ahead.

I don't think it's being harsh... I think blaming him for the first one is being harsh, was a hard cut back for a goalkeeper to get to. This one for me right away I felt like he just palmed it right to their player. Half of the job of saving it is being aware of where opposition is and not handing it right to them for a rebound. Some blame for Fred for not being aware, but De Gea softly saved a soft shot right for a rebound. It was a shit save on an easy shot.

 

[ti vu]

I don't think it's being harsh... I think blaming him for the first one is being harsh, was a hard cut back for a goalkeeper to get to. This one for me right away I felt like he just palmed it right to their player. Half of the job of saving it is being aware of where opposition is and not handing it right to them for a rebound. Some blame for Fred for not being aware, but De Gea softly saved a soft shot right for a rebound. It was a shit save on an easy shot.

As I pointed out from that I saw from the replay, DDG only made contact with that shot with his fingers. Not even contact to direct the shot away from the direction of the rebound.

It's not a handle issue as the tweet portrayed IMO. If there is a problem with goalkeeping here, it's more debatable in term of positioning.

 

[criticalanalysis]

[/QUOTE]

"coming through a crowd" is probably the wrong term - but Lallana clearly sticks out a foot to try get to it, so De Gea has to react to the potential of that happening as well as the shot.

It's also not a slow shot, this idea that its "only" 50mph is a bit weird - whilst not the most powerful, it wasn't a weak shot in the slightest- don't think most keepers are holding onto that at all.

Like I said, if he hasn't overcompensated positionally, he's dropping on the ball and it's an easy hold. The term weak shot is relative, as he agree it's not without power but it is a very weak shot to be causing a goalkeeper such difficulty in the middle of his goal. The reason he hasn't held it is because he's late getting down because he's never properly set for the shot, his feet are the giveaway for that. I agree with how he's gone down he isn't holding it but that's more a positional issue than a handling issue although like I said before he shouldn't be pushing it into a blind spot.

Agree. He can't push the ball more out wide because his approach to the save was poor in general. The actual save is closer to his right foot more than any horizontal space across his body. He's almost dropping his body and shoulder in a direct vertical line, which is unnatural and awkward. It's the type of save where a poor keeper is reacting and anticipating to the shot rather than making sure his fundamentals and spaces are covered. It's your typical Pickford/Foster etc type save. Ironically this type of shot was what De Gea used to be good at unorthodoxically, when he used his feet; he could have shifted across/not overcompensate and easily kick-blocked it out a further distance.

 

[Phil Osophy]

According to the Athletic ten Hag wants to sign a keeper now who can challenge De Gea. They say the plan was signing a 'number 3' but agents have been informed about our change of approach.

They mention Henderson's recent interview as one of the reasons (basically he's done here after his comments) and the fact that De Gea only left his box once in the game against Brighton.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Anyone who still thinks that this guy is good enough is absolutely clueless, he is arguably one of the worst keepers in the league. I don’t know if Dean Henderson was the answer but we have somehow made this guy’s position stronger which is absolutely mad

 

[Leftback99]

I assume we're still in the market for a back up but really they should be a potential number 1.

Sounds like Ten Hag agrees based on today's stories.

 

[unplayable]

Sounds like Ten Hag agrees based on today's stories.

That 7m won't get us a new number 1.

 

[hellhunter]

That 7m won't get us a new No. 1 goalkeeper.

What's Victor Valdes up to these days?

 

[sullydnl]

Would be more relevant to next summer (and a bigger budget than 7m) but worth keeping an eye on David Raya's situation at Brentford.

He hasn't signed a new contract yet, so would have just one year left come next summer. And they've already signed Thomas Strakosha as a back-up. With him already having jumped ahead of De Gea for the national team, if he doesn't sign a new contract he could be available for a relatively good price.

 

[JB7]

That 7m won't get us a new number 1.

Why not? Jose Sa changed clubs for less than that last summer and he'd walk into our team. Luis Maximiano just went to Lazio for £8/9m I think. Mike Maignan changed clubs last summer for around £10m. City just signed Stefan Ortega on a free. Great value goalkeepers are there you just have to look for them, which we haven't been doing in the past.

The Athletic do state that more money is there if the right fit becomes available:
"Additionally, Ten Hag would like a goalkeeper that can genuinely challenge De Gea and, if one becomes available, funds could go higher. Work behind the scenes has intensified, with agents made aware of the altered approach."

I wonder if the links to Mamardhashvili will come back around or if we'll go for a goalkeeper of a similar age to De Gea, if so there are too many options to list really. It will be an interesting few weeks but it's positive to note that Ten Hag already appears to be seeing the fragilities in De Gea's game.

 

[sullydnl]

Also worth noting that The Athletic piece also says that Illan Meslier is seen as a potential long-term successor to De Gea.

 

[unplayable]

Why not?

Mainly because I don't see why anyone would sell their goalkeeper for peanuts like that when the season has already started.

 

[JB7]

Mainly because I don't see why anyone would sell their goalkeeper for peanuts like that when the season has already started.

Then it's particularly odd to completely disregard the rest of my response to you isn't it?

 

[RopersReturn]

We should have bought Pope.

 

[daveskimufc]

We should have bought Pope.

I like pope, but I dont think he is any better with his feet than ddg. Which is supposedly what they are after

 

[Phil Osophy]

The thing is we don't need to sign an extraordinary keeper to be our number 1 this season. Anyone with a bit more expansive game who can do the basics well in ETH's system could challenge De Gea and send him to the bench as the three current keepers in the spanish NT.

It's actually crazy that we planned to bring another third keeper in the mould of Heaton and spend the season with De Gea as our only serious choice. I don't expect anything from those at the club but I can't believe ETH didn't see the need for a solid keeper until few days ago.

A rounded keeper is basic to play his style in an effective way and it's not like De Gea was some unknown player or difficult to analyze. His metrics are there to be seen and some of them are really poor. He isn't young either to start learning a completely different game, so I don't know what were we playing at by relying on him for this season. At least he's come to his senses, good for the man.

 

[NZT-One]

The thing is we don't need to sign an extraordinary keeper to be our number 1 this season. Anyone with a bit more expansive game who can do the basics well in ETH's system could challenge De Gea and send him to the bench as the three current keepers in the spanish NT.

It's actually crazy that we planned to bring another third keeper in the mould of Heaton and spend the season with De Gea as our only serious choice. I don't expect anything from those at the club but I can't believe ETH didn't see the need for a solid keeper until few days ago.

A rounded keeper is basic to play his style in an effective way and it's not like De Gea was some unknown player or difficult to analyze. His metrics are there to be seen and some of them are really poor. He isn't young either to start learning a completely different game, so I don't know what were we playing at by relying on him for this season. At least he's come to his senses, good for the man.

I think DDGs salary plays a role in that. If you want to put your 375k/week GK on the bench, you need a good explanation for it. Or/And a good alternative. I agree though, his characteristics lead to problems, no doubt about that. I just don't know to what kind of degree they balance each other out. Henderson had DDG on the bench for a while under Ole. And while Henderson looked decent, it wasn't some sort of revelation also.

Lets see what happens, I like the look of Sanchez from Brighton. He'd fit a lot of boxes as well and maybe wouldn't be overly expensive as well. Good thing is that most keepers these days are of the modern type and are fine stepping out of goal every now and then.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Project Maignan ‘23

 

[Phil Osophy]

I think DDGs salary plays a role in that. If you want to put your 375k/week GK on the bench, you need a good explanation for it. Or/And a good alternative. I agree though, his characteristics lead to problems, no doubt about that. I just don't know to what kind of degree they balance each other out. Henderson had DDG on the bench for a while under Ole. And while Henderson looked decent, it wasn't some sort of revelation also.

Lets see what happens, I like the look of Sanchez from Brighton. He'd fit a lot of boxes as well and maybe wouldn't be overly expensive as well. Good thing is that most keepers these days are of the modern type and are fine stepping out of goal every now and then.

I agree, there should be good options out there. It would have been easier and cheaper to fix one month ago, but as you say it could be the club being reluctant based on De Gea's salary and Henderson being still in the books. Once he shot himself in that interview a new vacant was open it seems, so let's hope they find something in the coming weeks.

 

[Lay]

Project Maignan ‘23

Would be my pick but I doubt it’ll happen. Probably sign Buffon at 45

 

[hellhunter]

Project Maignan ‘23

That would be the way to go for me as well

 

[Bebestation]

Also worth noting that The Athletic piece also says that Illan Meslier is seen as a potential long-term successor to De Gea.

Is he good in your opinion ?

he is very young but I do like whenever I do see him.

 

[hellhunter]

Is he good?

he is very young but I do like whenever I do see him.

Think he had some absolute shockers, but from his attributes he seems like a good gk

 

[JB7]

Project Maignan ‘23

I agree but the mere fact we didn't consider "Project Maignan 21" given the chicken feed he was available for comparatively to next summer is incredibly frustrating.

 

[Longshanks]

De gea should of been replaced 2 years ago,it became quite apparent that he had really regressed as a GK and was no longer suitable for a big club that wants to challenge for big trophies.

I can't get my head around ETH not seeing it as an issue before he come here, it was obvious for anyone with a footballing brain. But here we are again scratching our heads at the last minute again after splurging money on yet another CB only to find that it dosent solve our defensive issues. Remarkable that a GK that can't even get in his national squad anymore isnt clearly a massive issue.

 

[sullydnl]

Is he good in your opinion ?

he is very young but I do like whenever I do see him.

Talented enough that I see why we'd be looking at him long term but not nearly ready for the step up yet imo. If I was him I'd stay at Leeds for another couple of seasons.

 

[Adnan]

The podcast below sheds light on DdG's shortcomings. John Harrison is also on the panel.

 

[Giant Midget]

Making errors like it’s still 2018/2019, 2019/2020, 2020/2021 or the second half of 2021/2022 seasons.

He’s been done for so long, should have been out 4 years ago. Cost us CL in Ole’s first season, all those feck-ups in the semi-finals, and we’ve basically given him a free run at GK until he retires no matter how shit he is.