I don't think it is about defender vs. attacker. Creation is simply more difficult than destroying. The most gifted players usually tend to play in attacking roles. Somebody like Beckenbauer is an absolute exception, probably even one of a kind.
They had muller upfront to score the goals anyway.I don't think it is about defender vs. attacker. Creation is simply more difficult than destroying. The most gifted players usually tend to play in attacking roles. Somebody like Beckenbauer is an absolute exception, probably even one of a kind.
Your post history is hilarious. OBSESSED.King of being rejected
Which is really remarkable. Müller was an all time great goal scorer, yet I haven't encountered a single German who considers him greater than Beckenbauer - technically, a defender. To me this encapsulates that it isn't about who scores the most but who has the greatest positive impact for his team through whichever means Beckenbauer is considered the best German player of all time because everything flowed through him. He was technically the best and the outstanding playmaker of his teams. Which is essentially why I also believe that Messi has had a better career than Cristiano, for club and country. Messi's overall contribution is so much ahead of his rival that even when he scores less frequently (as he did for Argentina compared to Cristiano for Portugal), it more than makes up for it.They had muller upfront to score the goals anyway.
I wonder if in the current era of football one the absolute greatest goalscorers of all time could be overshadowed in the same team by a defender.Which is really remarkable. Müller was an all time great goal scorer, yet I haven't encountered a single German who considers him greater than Beckenbauer - technically, a defender. To me this encapsulates that it isn't about who scores the most but who has the greatest positive impact for his team through whichever means Beckenbauer is considered the best German player of all time because everything flowed through him. He was technically the best and the outstanding playmaker of his teams. Which is essentially why I also believe that Messi has had a better career than Cristiano, for club and country. Messi's overall contribution is so much ahead of his rival that even when he scores less frequently (as he did for Argentina compared to Cristiano for Portugal), it more than makes up for it.
Not a dig at Ronaldo, it is just that I believe people underestimate how ridiculous it is that Messi maintains this kind of scoring record while also being such a great playmaker.
Brazil were winning world cups when pele was on the bench (1962) and only had one goal the entire tourney. Those Brazil teams were stacked back then and the competition wasn’t nearly as good. Messi and Ronaldo would have won word cups back then too playing for Brazil.It's pretty even isn't it. They've both got a continental win, both scored and assisted ridiculous amounts.
But Pele has 3 world cups and shits on both of them.
Brazil were winning world cups when pele was on the bench (1962) and only had one goal the entire tourney. Those Brazil teams were stacked back then and the competition wasn’t nearly as good. Messi and Ronaldo would have won word cups back then too playing for Brazil.
Was Beckenbauer an out and out defender though? Looking at videos it looks like he drifts deep into the opposition half in what looks like a box to box midfield role. Surely he was playing in a back 3 then and given creative licence to roam forward while being the heartbeat of the team. Well before my time so I can only speculate.Which is really remarkable. Müller was an all time great goal scorer, yet I haven't encountered a single German who considers him greater than Beckenbauer - technically, a defender. To me this encapsulates that it isn't about who scores the most but who has the greatest positive impact for his team through whichever means Beckenbauer is considered the best German player of all time because everything flowed through him. He was technically the best and the outstanding playmaker of his teams. Which is essentially why I also believe that Messi has had a better career than Cristiano, for club and country. Messi's overall contribution is so much ahead of his rival that even when he scores less frequently (as he did for Argentina compared to Cristiano for Portugal), it more than makes up for it.
Not a dig at Ronaldo, it is just that I believe people underestimate how ridiculous it is that Messi maintains this kind of scoring record while also being such a great playmaker.
The COPA is generally just a two horse race though, with the occasional additional team that has a golden generation.It's not really a debate for me, Messi he's reached four major finals and they were a whisker away in all the finals. Including the WC.
No, it's a one horse race with Brazil winning most tournaments. Argentina won only two between 1959-2021 (in 93 & 95).The COPA is generally just a two horse race though, with the occasional additional team that has a golden generation.
I think there have only been a handful of finals not Involving one of them. Absolute cakewalk.
A 2 horse race get chile won 2 of the last 4The COPA is generally just a two horse race though, with the occasional additional team that has a golden generation.
I think there have only been a handful of finals not Involving one of them. Absolute cakewalk.
Yeah mate. That’s the Caveat I highlighted. They had one golden generation and played….. Argentina in both finals.A 2 horse race get chile won 2 of the last 4
100%Yeah mate. That’s the Caveat I highlighted. They had one golden generation and played….. Argentina in both finals.
Only 5 finals haven’t had one of Argentina or Brazil in them. You’re denying observable reality to suggest it’s not a piece of piss for them both. Guaranteed semi-finals.
I think Messi is a better footballer than Ronaldo, but Ronaldo’s Euro exploits are rightfully valued higher than Messi’s COPA efforts. It’s not a slight. It’s just circumstance.
EDIT ::: I may have quoted a shitty stat. I used a Wiki table that another table disagrees with. Anywho, point-being, Argentina have easy routes to the semi final, always.
Wrong, Before Ronaldo, Portugal played SF in 1966 WC and EC SF in 1984 & 2000. Figo and co were more influential in 2006 WC. The guy was not even chosen as a best player in a major tournament vs Messi with 5 including a WC.It’s easily and and a no contest Ronaldo on this front.
Before Ronaldo Portugal had zero trophies and barely qualified for major tournaments.
With Ronaldo 3 final 2 won a WC semi final and multiple other Euro semi finals.
So inferior that the team won EC against France in Paris without him)) so that he can show off..This all while playing for a majority of his career with a inferior national team. In WC 2014 for example the last time we played Ghana our lineup was
Beto Veloso Alves pepe João Pereira amorim William Moutinho Eder nani Ronaldo and on the bench Varela and Ricardo costa among other garbage.
He was not even the best player of Portugal in that tournament, did not even play more than 15 minutes in the final, his performances were nothing special. Greece as a surprise winner like Portugal in 2004 had to eliminate Spain, France, Portugal twice (home team) and an amazing Czech team to win the title.The Euro win Alone is a bigger feat then anything messi has done with Argentina. If you remove bias the copa América is the South Americans version of the gold cup. Argentina or Brazil are in the final 9x out of 10. It’s a given….
Just like the rest of the Portugal squad brought him EC without him, he should be grateful that rest of the squad did it so that he can get all the credit.. You seem to have zero respect for the rest of the team to elevate your countryman Ronaldo.Ronaldos international record is incredible with the players he had supporting him. Many times he has single handedly pulled Portugal out of the mud.
Continue imagining Ronaldo as the playmaker + goalscorer for the NT) You are conflating team success with individual success fully ignoring the fact that Messi was chosen as the best player in every single tournament he played in including the WC, Ronaldo has "0" zero.If Ronaldo played for Argentina and those group of players I would imagine he would have 2 copa Américas and I would fancy him in a major final/moment over Anyone so maybe he is sitting pretty with a World Cup.
Such a clever comparison, as if football is a 1-man sport.. As if Portugal did not win EC without him in the final, such an inferior squad)) If only Messi had a player like Eder instead of Higuain to help him. You can't even see that football is a team sport not singles tennis..Argentina has won major trophies before Messi and they will win them after…that’s the difference between the two nations.
With Portugal they never won without him….they won TWO with him….and they is a Huge chance they don’t win anything after him. Our history and size of our country has dictated that.
Don’t you know? A player appearing in a WC semis unquestionably had a better international career than one who was in the final of a WC and won the best player award. “Not really a contest really”, hear that, not even a debate alrightWrong, Before Ronaldo, Portugal played SF in 1966 WC and EC SF in 1984 & 2000. Figo and co were more influential in 2006 WC. The guy was not even chosen as a best player in a major tournament vs Messi with 5 including a WC.
So inferior that the team won EC against France in Paris without him)) so that he can show off..
He was not even the best player of Portugal in that tournament, did not even play more than 15 minutes in the final, his performances were nothing special. Greece as a surprise winner like Portugal in 2004 had to eliminate Spain, France, Portugal twice (home team) and an amazing Czech team to win the title.
Denmark in 1992 , another surprise winner, had to play against France, England, Sweden (home team), Netherlands and Germany to win the title.
Portugal's win is the jammiest win ever with teams like Hungary, Austria, Poland, Iceland, Wales etc. not even a single major force other than France. That does not look like the usual path of a EC winner to anyone)). Also, that supposedly "weak without Ronaldo" Portugal team won it without him so that he could get all the credit))
Just like the rest of the Portugal squad brought him EC without him, he should be grateful that rest of the squad did it so that he can get all the credit.. You seem to have zero respect for the rest of the team to elevate your countryman Ronaldo.
Continue imagining Ronaldo as the playmaker + goalscorer for the NT) You are conflating team success with individual success fully ignoring the fact that Messi was chosen as the best player in every single tournament he played in including the WC, Ronaldo has "0" zero.
Such a clever comparison, as if football is a 1-man sport.. As if Portugal did not win EC without him in the final, such an inferior squad)) If only Messi had a player like Eder instead of Higuain to help him. You can't even see that football is a team sport not singles tennis..
By the way, Ronaldo's goal scoring record against "weak" Americans (USA, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Chile) is terrible, 2 goals in 11 games..
One game into the tournamentIs this even a debate anymore
He was a traditional sweeper. He would drive the ball up the pitchWas Beckenbauer an out and out defender though? Looking at videos it looks like he drifts deep into the opposition half in what looks like a box to box midfield role. Surely he was playing in a back 3 then and given creative licence to roam forward while being the heartbeat of the team. Well before my time so I can only speculate.
EDIT a quick google of the 1974 formation shows it was a flat back 4. But Vogts as right back would drop deep to cover for Beckenbauer's forward runs, playing as a make shift centre back.
I don't think Beckenbauer would be played as a centre back in this era. Managers would want him as the focal point. He potentially could of been more influential if he didn't have to drop so far back.
never wasIs this even a debate anymore
This aged wellIs this even a debate anymore
Probably be in the Saudi teamSiuuuu, cannot wait to see CR41 in WC2026 trying to force the debate again
He’ll be after enough plastic surgery at that stage to get away with it.Probably be in the Saudi team
Even if he doesn’t, there’s no argument to be had.If Messi wins the WC, not even the staunchest of Ronaldo fanboys can continue arguing for their man.
Zero assists as well.Ronaldo is a choker when it comes to international tournaments. Not sure how this was even a debate.
5 World Cups and 5 Euros, and he's never performed anywhere near the level that Messi has in this World Cup or the 2014 WC, or Copa America 2015, 2016, 2021.
Zero goals in the WC knockout stages for a player who offers nothing but goals to his team is a pretty damning statistic
You will be surprised. Afterall Ronaldo was voted as the person who has won the most world cup (ahead of Pele) just before this world cup, hence alternate reality etcIf Messi wins the WC, not even the staunchest of Ronaldo fanboys can continue arguing for their man.