[RedRonaldo]

Just send him out loan. Didn't Atletico managed to loan out their big money wonderkid flop to Chelsea, with a handsome payment in return?

We could do that too with Sancho - just loan him out to some desperate club like Juventus or Dortmund, who knows? If he somehow find his form there, we might be able to sell him for 35-40m next summer.

 

[Sarni]

Had a decent start to the season and then something happened. Seems like something very very significant in his personal life. Hasn't really bounced back from that absence but in this case I think you have to be patient. I'll start to worry more if he isn't improving steadily this time next season.

Do we actually have anything to have us believe something tragic happened to him and caused him to be awful for 2 years?

I know many hinged to ETH‘s comments about Sancho’s issues but it may have as well meant that he wasn’t committed enough and needed time off to get himself in shape physically and mentally.

 

[hobbers]

Had a decent start to the season and then something happened. Seems like something very very significant in his personal life. Hasn't really bounced back from that absence but in this case I think you have to be patient. I'll start to worry more if he isn't improving steadily this time next season.

No it doesn't.

It seems like he was laughably unfit after the summer, hence sent off to a private training camp.

 

[Strootman's Finger]

Had a decent start to the season and then something happened. Seems like something very very significant in his personal life. Hasn't really bounced back from that absence but in this case I think you have to be patient. I'll start to worry more if he isn't improving steadily this time next season.

You 100% invented that in your mind. Nothing happened, he got his big payday move and now he's on cruise control until he retires. Bad news for him is that United will change owners, and will no longer carry dead weight their entire careers because they are a business asset on paper. Had the glazers stayed we'd be stuck with this guy another 10 years. I can see Ten Hag giving him one more season, but then he'll be gone.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

seems like what ive read selling for a loss doesnt help us financially at all? Does a loan count different at least? If not then might as well keep him for the numbers next year and hope he recoups some value playing in a more functional squad. Gonna be tough to get gametime with garnacho and rash on the left, and hopefully antony and amad on the right. EtH doesnt seem to view him as a 10 backup or anything.

 

[hobbers]

Nothing happened, he got his big payday move and now he's on cruise control until he retires.

Bingo.

Gets the 'put your feet up for the rest of your career' wages and at the same time is dropped into a league that is far too physical and fast for him. A player with his low level of drive and motivation ain't gonna suddenly start pulling up trees to get up to scratch physically.

This would normally be something that any half-intelligent club would figure out long before committing £160m to a signing.

 

[SATA]

Is he really on 350K a week? Surely there are lots of clauses and probably achievable bonuses that will add up to that to make it to that amount? I refuse to believe that the club is that stupid because he’ll already be one of the top earners behind De Gea without exactly doing anything to earn that

 

[kundalini]

This WAS the original discussion

I said (to summarise) - 'we;re going to have to find/do something with Sancho OR accept he's a £173m bust'

At which point you said (to summarise) - 'sell him'...and my last two/three posts have been focused on why I believe that's not an option.

To answer your question about what makes me think he might come good....well....personally, I don't think he'll 'come good', in the sense that I don't think he'll ever be a starting XI player for us, IF we want to compete for trophies.

He's not a total bust though, he has some positive attributes. He is technically very good, he sees a pass, he can score the odd goal, he's good in tight areas....so again, going right back to the very beginning...I'd like to see us at least try and coach him into a #10. At least at #10, his lack of pace might not be such a major issue.

You keep referencing Martial....and we have had precisely the same problem there. We give these lads massive wages before they have achieved anything and then no club can afford to buy them when they don't reach their potential. Had we given Sancho £175K, for example, or even £200K, there might have been hope. At £350K we have absolutely no chance of moving him on, we're completely stuck.

Same with Martial...if he were earning £125K per week and not £220K (or whatever), some club like Newcastle, Spurs, Villa, Everton, Sevilla, Dortmund etc....would have bought him by now...but nobody can or will pay the outrageous salaries we pay and players aren't stupid...they won't tear up massive contracts to move to 'lesser' clubs on significantly lower wages.

Do you understand how United contracts are structured ?

Memphis Depay's contract was leaked. It showed that he earned £5.2m basic if in CL that season and £3.9m if not in CL. On top of that, he earned £20K per start, with a £250K bonus for 20 starts and again for 40 starts. There were also a couple of loyalty payments after certain stages in the contract and a £1m bonus if he won the Ballon d'Or.

I haven't seen Jadon Sancho's contract but an educated guess says that the £350K per week figure is the maximum he can earn in a CL season if a regular starter. I suspect that the top earner at several Bundesliga clubs will not be that far off what Sancho gets if he is back-up to Antony, getting occasional starts next season.

Obviously, I have no idea whether Sancho would be willing to take a slightly reduced salary to be a starter for a Bundesliga club, rather than a bench player at United.

On balance, I think he will stay next season as cover, not feature that often. I doubt Ten Hag would tell Sancho that he is a back-up player, in the way that Maguire has spent this season believing he could force his way into the team, only for it not to happen.

Personally, I would sell for about £45m this summer (his book value after 2 years, having signed him for £75m on a 5 year deal) and I believe several Bundesliga clubs would be willing to pay that type of fee, on the assumption that Sancho is a brilliant Bundesliga player but for whatever reasons, isn't as effective in the PL. I doubt there would be much interest from PL clubs, as his performances for United have been so underwhelming.

If the only interest is a low fee or a loan then I'd keep him in case we have an injury crisis.

 

[Strootman's Finger]

Is he really on 350K a week? Surely there are lots of clauses and probably achievable bonuses that will add up to that to make it to that amount? I refuse to believe that the club is that stupid because he’ll already be one of the top earners behind De Gea without exactly doing anything to earn that

I think that was his wage when he signed, but didn't all players take a pay cut of 20 or 25% last summer?

 

[hobbers]

I think that was his wage when he signed, but didn't all players take a pay cut of 20 or 25% last summer?

Yes so we can assume he currently gets about £260k a week.

Which is still 5x his value.

 

[Zehner]

seems like what ive read selling for a loss doesnt help us financially at all? Does a loan count different at least? If not then might as well keep him for the numbers next year and hope he recoups some value playing in a more functional squad. Gonna be tough to get gametime with garnacho and rash on the left, and hopefully antony and amad on the right. EtH doesnt seem to view him as a 10 backup or anything.

Player fees are usually activated as intangible assets. Which means, if you buy a player for €80m, this isn't a loss accounting wise. Instead, the player value of €80m is accounted and then depreciated over the contract duration. That means that Sancho will cost you €80m/5 = €16m per year until 2026.

In the summer, he'll still have a book value of €48m. So if you sell him for €30m, you'll have costs of €18m. However, if a club pays you €50m, you would actually mae a small profit. So it depends how much interested clubs are willing to pay.

But even if you can't get the full sum: There are still a few tricks. You could e. g. loan Sancho out with an obligation to buy the following season. That way you would "schedule the loss" into next year but also save his wages (or the amount the buying club is willing to pay).

 

[kundalini]

I think that was his wage when he signed, but didn't all players take a pay cut of 20 or 25% last summer?

All United first team players earning above about £1m get a 25% cut in basic salary if not in CL. It has been standard practice since David Gill was Chief Executive, mentioned in several articles and clear in Memphis Depay's leaked contract.

On top of that, it is reasonable to assume that the £350K per week figure includes appearance bonuses so since Sancho starts about half our matches, he will be earning quite a bit less, even if in CL.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

Player fees are usually activated as intangible assets. Which means, if you buy a player for €80m, this isn't a loss accounting wise. Instead, the player value of €80m is accounted and then depreciated over the contract duration. That means that Sancho will cost you €80m/5 = €16m per year until 2026.

In the summer, he'll still have a book value of €48m. So if you sell him for €30m, you'll have costs of €18m. However, if a club pays you €50m, you would actually mae a small profit. So it depends how much interested clubs are willing to pay.

But even if you can't get the full sum: There are still a few tricks. You could e. g. loan Sancho out with an obligation to buy the following season. That way you would "schedule the loss" into next year but also save his wages (or the amount the buying club is willing to pay).

yeah feel like a good ole loan with obligation to buy might be the way to go. Really depends on amad. If we keep amad sancho will be extra but if not sancho can deputize on right a bit i guess.

 

[jesperjaap]

No club in the world is paying over £30m for Sancho. Not when they'd also have to offer wages in the same ballpark as his current deal.

Sancho is obviously the epitome of a player who would rather sit on the bench and rake in the money, than take a hit on his income to get his career back on track.

Deary me, what utter hogwash

 

[Lentwood]

Do you understand how United contracts are structured ?

Memphis Depay's contract was leaked. It showed that he earned £5.2m basic if in CL that season and £3.9m if not in CL. On top of that, he earned £20K per start, with a £250K bonus for 20 starts and again for 40 starts. There were also a couple of loyalty payments after certain stages in the contract and a £1m bonus if he won the Ballon d'Or.

I haven't seen Jadon Sancho's contract but an educated guess says that the £350K per week figure is the maximum he can earn in a CL season if a regular starter. I suspect that the top earner at several Bundesliga clubs will not be that far off what Sancho gets if he is back-up to Antony, getting occasional starts next season.

Obviously, I have no idea whether Sancho would be willing to take a slightly reduced salary to be a starter for a Bundesliga club, rather than a bench player at United.

On balance, I think he will stay next season as cover, not feature that often. I doubt Ten Hag would tell Sancho that he is a back-up player, in the way that Maguire has spent this season believing he could force his way into the team, only for it not to happen.

Personally, I would sell for about £45m this summer (his book value after 2 years, having signed him for £75m on a 5 year deal) and I believe several Bundesliga clubs would be willing to pay that type of fee, on the assumption that Sancho is a brilliant Bundesliga player but for whatever reasons, isn't as effective in the PL. I doubt there would be much interest from PL clubs, as his performances for United have been so underwhelming.

If the only interest is a low fee or a loan then I'd keep him in case we have an injury crisis.

OK, lets say for arguments sake his flat, non-CL season salary is 'only' £240K per week...Dortmund's top earner is on £185K per week and some of that is probably also performance related.

Basically there are no clubs who would want him who can afford his salary. That is the point people keep making. I am sure loads of clubs want him, I am sure loads of clubs would pay £40m....IF he was on a reasonable salary.

 

[Peelhead]

On what plant was Woodward on when he gave Sancho 350k a week, when no one else was in for him? 150k would've easily done the trick.

Himself and Bartamaeu really were from another planet, absolutely clueless.

I'm not making any kind of accusations but I can see why outsiders looking in at a lot of football transfers, not just ours, would allege some form of corruption. They just don't make sense, whether it's the agent fee with the Pogba deal or the Ronaldo to Saudi deal, why that amount and not 'just' €100mm?

 

[Isotope]

Player fees are usually activated as intangible assets. Which means, if you buy a player for €80m, this isn't a loss accounting wise. Instead, the player value of €80m is accounted and then depreciated over the contract duration. That means that Sancho will cost you €80m/5 = €16m per year until 2026.

In the summer, he'll still have a book value of €48m. So if you sell him for €30m, you'll have costs of €18m. However, if a club pays you €50m, you would actually mae a small profit. So it depends how much interested clubs are willing to pay.

But even if you can't get the full sum: There are still a few tricks. You could e. g. loan Sancho out with an obligation to buy the following season. That way you would "schedule the loss" into next year but also save his wages (or the amount the buying club is willing to pay).

So how about a club buy him for 500m, with 10m up front, and 490m in the next 1000 years? Would it be 10m as income or 500m?

 

[OleGunnar20]

I'm sure we could sell him for 40-50m, even if we have to subsidise the wages slightly. It's clearly not working here and Amad looks like a much better fit for the squad next year, assuming we sign a striker and use Rashford / Garnacho on the left.

His value would be far better spent on a CM / CB / RB or Striker.

 

[Zehner]

So how about a club buy him for 500m, with 10m up front, and 490m in the next 1000 years? Would it be 10m as income or 500m?

500m. Though I doubt that such a contract would be possible. At the very least, the banks wouldn't finance it.

Anyway, you could for instance make a deal with another club and buy a 10m player for 100m and sell one for 100m. That way both clubs generate 90m in income and "lose it" over the contract durations again. That's what Barca and Juve did with the Arthur/Pjanic deal.

 

[Isotope]

500m. Though I doubt that such a contract would be possible. At the very least, the banks wouldn't finance it.

Anyway, you could for instance make a deal with another club and buy a 10m player for 100m and sell one for 100m. That way both clubs generate 90m in income and "lose it" over the contract durations again. That's what Barca and Juve did with the Arthur/Pjanic deal.

I'm just thinking of some dodgy thing that could happen. Just like those "sponsorships".

So the bank would still finance on such a deal (on your 2nd paragraph)? Interesting bank.

 

[Strelok]

No club on the planet would pay more than £30m for him now.

I'd doubt if any club would pay any money for him now considering his wages and how he looks in the last two years. Look at Pepe, once a 80m player and now back to L1 on loan. And his wages were much lower than Sancho's I think.

Imo he'll stay here for another season then leave on a loan. Of course we'll have to pay a big part if not almost all of his wages. Then another loan. Until his contract ends. Then we'll forget about him.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Which top clubs are desperate for wingers? Only reason why I said ''top clubs'' is because I think only top clubs can afford his wages.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Next season is genuinely massive for him. He has to bring something to the squad. He won’t be a starter either but can definitely bring something. Hopefully the pressure will be off him next season. Want to see him play with a smile on his face and just find joy in football again.

 

[Zehner]

I'm just thinking of some dodgy thing that could happen. Just like those "sponsorships".

So the bank would still finance on such a deal (on your 2nd paragraph)? Interesting bank.

I'm not an expert but I guess there are certain limits to this. Which is why Barca and Juve didn't go completely crazy and "only" valued Arthur and Pjanic at 50m and 70m or something like that. There has to be a reason why we aren't seeing stuff like this more frequently, though. The deal happened amdst the covid crisis and both clubs were pretty desperate at the time

 

[Tibs]

Sell sell sell

 

[NeglectedGoat]

You 100% invented that in your mind. Nothing happened, he got his big payday move and now he's on cruise control until he retires. Bad news for him is that United will change owners, and will no longer carry dead weight their entire careers because they are a business asset on paper. Had the glazers stayed we'd be stuck with this guy another 10 years. I can see Ten Hag giving him one more season, but then he'll be gone.

Stephen Howson who has pretty decent contacts around the club alluded to Sancho going through something significant in his personal life. He said it's ongoing and not something you can recover from after a couple of months so he's likely still dealing with it. It's clearly not a case of him being unfit and sent away for a mid-season "bootcamp". If that's what happened then why were so many players showing their support online when he returned? It makes no sense.

Last season he was mediocre but the whole club was in turmoil so judging players from that isn't the wisest (see Rashford). This season he started off in okay fashion and then his form dropped and he was sent away. Since he's returned he's been very poor but those that are saying he should be sold are jumping the gun. He should be given next season and if he's still performing at this level then I agree he should be sold.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Next season is genuinely massive for him. He has to bring something to the squad. He won’t be a starter either but can definitely bring something. Hopefully the pressure will be off him next season. Want to see him play with a smile on his face and just find joy in football again.

It's not though, he's a 23 year old millionaire who should be sorted financially for the rest of his life. He's a human being and football isn't necessarily the be all and end all for him.

He might love playing football, but he might also prioritise other things which is fine. It's the clubs job to build a culture and sign players that have the desire to better themselves and win things. We've rewarded mediocrity for the past decade which obviously has a knock on effect.

I don't even think that Sancho has been that bad recently. He hasn't been amazing by any stretch, but the players he's supposed to be providing service to haven't exactly set the world on fire either and he's played with three different left backs over the past few weeks as well. Not exactly had much of a chance to build up a meaningful partnership with any of them yet.

 

[Born2Lose]

On what plant was Woodward on when he gave Sancho 350k a week, when no one else was in for him? 150k would've easily done the trick.

Himself and Bartamaeu really were from another planet, absolutely clueless.

Is he really on 350K a week? Surely there are lots of clauses and probably achievable bonuses that will add up to that to make it to that amount? I refuse to believe that the club is that stupid because he’ll already be one of the top earners behind De Gea without exactly doing anything to earn that

From what I read at the time, he was already on £250k a week at Dortmund.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Sell sell sell

Agreed, I don't see any value in keeping him.

 

[Trumpeter Whydah]

From what I read at the time, he was already on £250k a week at Dortmund.

No. At Dortmund, highest was a bit short of £10M per year, including all boni, when their bosses raised it to that number in August 2019. That's roughly £190k a week, of which ~ £20k were boni. That's then in line with "MUFC doubled his wages to £350k a week".

Tbf, it looked opportune at the time. He was massive, also PR wise with Nike, that EA cover, coming from SE ghetto London. One us us for many, and he had the moves, the flair, the audacity, the confidence... Now it's more like "only three players make more than him", which says a lot.

 

[marktan]

I'm not an expert but I guess there are certain limits to this. Which is why Barca and Juve didn't go completely crazy and "only" valued Arthur and Pjanic at 50m and 70m or something like that. There has to be a reason why we aren't seeing stuff like this more frequently, though. The deal happened amdst the covid crisis and both clubs were pretty desperate at the time

Didn't Juve get docked points this season precisely because of those deals?

 

[Strootman's Finger]

Stephen Howson who has pretty decent contacts around the club alluded to Sancho going through something significant in his personal life. He said it's ongoing and not something you can recover from after a couple of months so he's likely still dealing with it. It's clearly not a case of him being unfit and sent away for a mid-season "bootcamp". If that's what happened then why were so many players showing their support online when he returned? It makes no sense.

Last season he was mediocre but the whole club was in turmoil so judging players from that isn't the wisest (see Rashford). This season he started off in okay fashion and then his form dropped and he was sent away. Since he's returned he's been very poor but those that are saying he should be sold are jumping the gun. He should be given next season and if he's still performing at this level then I agree he should be sold.

The team played like shit last season because the players who played in the team played like shit and made the team shit. Not sure why people want to absolve guilt from the people that are completely guilty for our shit season. So no, I will not write off last season. He showed up late and out of shape. He didn't play long before being dropped by Solskjaer. For about 5 mins after Ralf showed up he looked like he might be okay, then he completely fell off. He didn't start the season well, he started it decent at best, but the minimum of what you would expect from a player of that stature at a club of that stature. No one knows why he had that sabbatical, but you guessing, or that blowhard douchebag ste howson guessing, doesn't prove anything. If he has an excuse for his poor performances it has to span 2 full seasons, because that's how long he's been underperforming.

For the record, I have criticized him occassionally, but I have been fully supportive of Sancho up until recently, I was really hopefuly when he did go away and come back, at the time the moment he came back on the pitch and Ten Hag had his hand on his shoulder and he was smiling, I thought that was going to be a pivitol moment of his career and our season, but he's been worse since. If he has an ongoing issue why is he back playing? If it's because we need him, well we needed him in Jan.

 

[McGrathsipan]

would anyone really care if he was sold and replaced

I doubt it.

Too long have we pandered to players that take years to play well and then probably dont every even play well

Pogba,Lingard and Martial being other prime examples.

feck him off if he cant do it.

 

[Abraxas]

It's not though, he's a 23 year old millionaire who should be sorted financially for the rest of his life. He's a human being and football isn't necessarily the be all and end all for him.

He might love playing football, but he might also prioritise other things which is fine. It's the clubs job to build a culture and sign players that have the desire to better themselves and win things. We've rewarded mediocrity for the past decade which obviously has a knock on effect.

I don't even think that Sancho has been that bad recently. He hasn't been amazing by any stretch, but the players he's supposed to be providing service to haven't exactly set the world on fire either and he's played with three different left backs over the past few weeks as well. Not exactly had much of a chance to build up a meaningful partnership with any of them yet.

I don't know that this is the case with Sancho that he's distracted or not prioritising football, it seems like speculation. But let's run with it anyway.

I wouldn't say the idea that a player prioritises other things is fine if it means he isn't fit to perform the job he is contracted to do. That is a lack of professionalism and character. All take on the financial side and not much give. You can justify that they are allowed to have other priorities, of course, many players have that but you have to expect that when you represent Man Utd that fans are going to be very much entitled to air a grievance if you aren't reaching a minimum standard of effort or fitness. That's not even saying anything about performance.

We know we're the donuts that gave him a contract and maybe our homework should have been better, but there's still an element of what do you have about you as an individual? Not being fit for most of his time here is pretty much a disgrace.

 

[Zehner]

Didn't Juve get docked points this season precisely because of those deals?

I didn't really know what happened there but had a quick read. Yes, it is the reason for the point reduction. Apparently it is forbidden to inflate asset (= player licence) values and Juve were already under investigation in 2021 for it. Anyway, since it is very hard to quantify the value of a player, they were let off the hook in dubio pro reo - after all, Juve could actually have valued Arthur at €72m, regardless of how stupid that would have been. And the same is true for various other transfers Juve did, e. g. the Cancelo/Danilo deal. But during an investigation on tax evasion and under the hand payments of players, they actually found a book in which they had noted the values they actually and honestly estimated the purchased players at How stupid is that?

 

[NeglectedGoat]

The team played like shit last season because the players who played in the team played like shit and made the team shit. Not sure why people want to absolve guilt from the people that are completely guilty for our shit season. So no, I will not write off last season. He showed up late and out of shape. He didn't play long before being dropped by Solskjaer. For about 5 mins after Ralf showed up he looked like he might be okay, then he completely fell off. He didn't start the season well, he started it decent at best, but the minimum of what you would expect from a player of that stature at a club of that stature. No one knows why he had that sabbatical, but you guessing, or that blowhard douchebag ste howson guessing, doesn't prove anything. If he has an excuse for his poor performances it has to span 2 full seasons, because that's how long he's been underperforming.

For the record, I have criticized him occassionally, but I have been fully supportive of Sancho up until recently, I was really hopefuly when he did go away and come back, at the time the moment he came back on the pitch and Ten Hag had his hand on his shoulder and he was smiling, I thought that was going to be a pivitol moment of his career and our season, but he's been worse since. If he has an ongoing issue why is he back playing? If it's because we need him, well we needed him in Jan.

Okay, so again, why were all his fellow players showing support online when he returned? It's not because he was out of shape and shed a few extra pounds upon his return. I don't know the exact reason but if we're being objective it's clear that something has happened. Overcoming personal issues isn't a binary thing so anyone expecting him to come back and hit the ground running isn't living in the real world. This doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism but he should be given another year to prove himself.

 

[Borys]

Did we really bring him here to play RW? I may have blurred memory but I don't recall him playing there regularly for United. I also don't see how he would excel there, he doesn't cross the ball very well or at least he's not showing it (similar to Antony).

 

[RedRonaldo]

I think that was his wage when he signed, but didn't all players take a pay cut of 20 or 25% last summer?

That's probably correct, which also means he could be earning 350k a week again next season when we are back to CL.

 

[Sarni]

Okay, so again, why were all his fellow players showing support online when he returned? It's not because he was out of shape and shed a few extra pounds upon his return. I don't know the exact reason but if we're being objective it's clear that something has happened. Overcoming personal issues isn't a binary thing so anyone expecting him to come back and hit the ground running isn't living in the real world. This doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism but he should be given another year to prove himself.

It's not clear at all. You have absolutely no idea if something personal happened to him, you just made it up in your mind because you want to believe that rather than believe that he was simply out of shape and lacked commitment, which is far easier explanation for his absence. He was sent away and returned so it's only natural for players to be showing him support and hoping that he can stay on the good track.

 

[Strootman's Finger]

Okay, so again, why were all his fellow players showing support online when he returned? It's not because he was out of shape and shed a few extra pounds upon his return. I don't know the exact reason but if we're being objective it's clear that something has happened. Overcoming personal issues isn't a binary thing so anyone expecting him to come back and hit the ground running isn't living in the real world. This doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism but he should be given another year to prove himself.

Because he was back from a long time out of the team and were probably hopeful he had a succesful return. There is nothing to suggest it was any more than that, and if you think there is you're just projecting. Part of being a top professional is dealing with adversity and still coming out on top. My entire point is he may be talented, but he's not going to make it as a top professional at this level.

These are people just like us, I know people at work who have crazy things going on in their personal life, but come into work in a good mood, do a good job and don't let the outside affect work. I know others that have challenges outside work and allow it to affect their employment, to the point where they are risking losing their jobs. But at the end of the day, you have a job to do, and you're the only one who will suffer when you don't do it and have to deal with the consequences.