Can stats show how playing a safer pass can lead to a better chance being created further in the move?
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 12
Not unless you have a sweet multiverse device.
Your argument could be flipped around by the way.
He'll probably get 2 assists this weekend while continuing to give the ball away cheaply.
The only way United will thrive with him is if Hojland is an absolute beast out the gate and scores 25 plus goals.
The only way United will thrive with him is if Hojland is an absolute beast out the gate and scores 25 plus goals.
I’m not sure if it is the club’s or Ten Hag’s, or whether that is relevant. Ultimately, it needs to be the right principles. That is subjective, but IMO, Ten Hag has shown no more capability than any other manager we’ve had in establishing those principles. The one change he has made is he doesn’t want his back 5 to just hoof the ball. However, he doesn’t seem to care whether anyone in front of them does it.
Your interpretation of my view appears accurate to me. Our team is set up to play to Bruno’s strengths. I wouldn’t say it makes us a poor team, but it ranges between somewhere between poor and good team over the last 4 years - but never a ‘good enough’ team. So yes, I do believe Bruno needs to be removed from the team, but it’s not a case of me thinking that our sub is better. He won’t. What we need to do is almost approach football a bit differently , and I don’t think that approach should include Bruno. So this isn’t like a normal call to drop an out of form player that we all have. I feel we need to move on from even a Bruno in good form. The exact amount of players or time it will take is obviously not something I can tell you. What I CAN tell you is that other football teams have managed to modernise their approach so I don’t see why we can’t do the same.
As for Ten Hag’s signings and extensions aligning with the right principles, I’m becoming increasingly of the opinion that Ten Hag wither does not have or cannot introduce the principles I would have hoped he would. I’m very much a believer in saying what I see, and I think majority of Ten Hag’s mystique is fans filling in blanks in the way they would want them to appear, even if in contradiction to what is they are seeing.
Maddison is the new talk of the town after 1 good game..
Yeah great catch. Really wonder how he will do in his first full season in the PL.
I respect your numbers, however, I apply little relevance to them when I watch football. That’s just me. They apply way too little context, and the amount of times De Bruyne returns to the dressing room having been the best player on the pitch is more relevant. A ‘misplaced pass’ for one player can be praise worthy and a misplaced pass for another can elicit frustration. I’ve see De Bruyne whip dangerous balls in between defender and keeper that missed the striker by an inch get praised as a ‘brilliant pass’. A 60 yard pass that goes comfortably to a defender is also a misplaced pass and likely wouldn’t have people saying how fantastic it was. I prefer to watch a game myself, and De Bruyne is unanimously head and shoulders above Bruno until we start watching football via Opta, then - despite us all seeing that he’s a level above, they then become marginally differential.
By any chance, could you find what the same numbers are for Ronaldinho? I have no idea what they are, but I hope they don’t leave you scratching your head as to who was better between Ronaldinho and Bruno Fernandes.
Appreciated, I’ll try not to disappoint! I’ve been of this view since early in Bruno’s tenure here, although it’s often been a controversial view but more people are coming around to it now.
Unfortunately, I think we need to start from the basics.
But they wanted to sign him and swap him from someone else. Not very flattering.
So those stats are just black and white and don’t in any way tell the entire story.
I don't think he's bad, I just think he is lacking severely in doing the basics as a midfielder. He is a player that relies on moments, occasional luck and fast-thinking team mates. Our midfield is just chaotic and it completely lacks any sort of control. Imagine if we could have someone physical, or another midfielder that knew how to control the tempo instead of Bruno. Sure, that player would not create as many chances as Bruno, but he'd make sure we have more consistent control in the midfield, which is going to result in more chances, anyway. We don't need one player to create tons of chances. We need control, similarly to how teams like City, Real Madrid and Barcelona control the midfield. Goals and chances come from everywhere.
He can have games where he bosses the game, but often that is against poor opposition. Most of the time, though, he relies on moments. You just can't expect to win trophies with a player like that. How many big games does he actually play well in? Very few.
I'm the same. I only use stats when it makes sense to do so. Namely when it comes to frequency. When someone tells me that a player does a lot of A or not enough of B, then I will double-check if this is true or not. And luckily we have the tools to do so. They are as readily available as goal and assist stats these days. When people claim that Bruno gets dispossessed a lot compared to his peers it is very easy to disprove it. And you'd be factually wrong to claim otherwise.
It took me a while to actually bother to fact-check these statements. I found it largely pointless because Bruno's quality is as clear as day when you watch the game. He creates, he presses, he intercepts, he's always match fit and he's pretty good when given space in or around the box. You don't need stats to see that, but it's nice to see that the stats back it up too.
No. But he's incidentally my all time favorite player so it's funny that you picked him!
He's a very different player of course, but he was also risk taker who passed the eye test for anyone who understands football. Just like Bruno 
We are not getting near a title race with him starting every game. The final fourth of the last season he was very bad overall due to fatigue and clearly cant take a rest. We are not better without him yet though (unless Mount proves me wrong) we need a new “an open heart surgery”.
I’m also noticing a new behavior after he was announced Captain with all the moaning and pointing/blaming teammates. Whats all that all about after the first half? Not so much talked about but I’m sure many players are bothered by his bossy attitude at the pitch.
I’m also noticing a new behavior after he was announced Captain with all the moaning and pointing/blaming teammates. Whats all that all about after the first half? Not so much talked about but I’m sure many players are bothered by his bossy attitude at the pitch.
I see the point (and actually I am a bit relieved that more people come to this side of the curtain) but we also have to remember that it isn't a case of just swap players and all is well. For every attempted Bruno "in behind ball" you also have two, three or four of our attackers choosing to go for that run instead of coming close or do whatever else. Thats why I say that even if Bruno is the poster boy for that particular issue, simply swapping him or making him the scapegoat isn't really doing much. Going for more control means change for many players. And who knows, maybe it will bring out deficiencies in others as well.
I hope, that this post-match hickup where Bruno and ETH seemed to have different understandings of the actual plan lead to things changing. It is a tricky situation though, as many have said, our best players have been Rashford and Bruno and decreasing their comfort level is risky. Because knowing our football geniuses higher up, if it doesn't work out soon enough, they won't look any further than just the manager...
I salute this hot takeNo. But he's incidentally my all time favorite player so it's funny that you picked him!
it will keep this thread glowing for a little longer.(meant in good will of course)
He was terrible against spurs.
And that was against relegation fodder (us).
When was the last time Bruno had a good game against a good team?
Can’t belive people called Özil a luxury player. This guy got 0 dribbling ability the year is 2023 a cam needs to be able to atleast get out of tight spaces with a dribble here and there but all he does is back heels and flicks as soon as someone is on his back or he just goes for the long ball. His numbers has blinded us from the type of player he really is.
sometimes big calls have to be made, pep did it with Ronaldinho, fergie with rvn, Fernandes feels like one of thoses big calls that eth needs to make, something about his inclusion in the team under eth feels forced and a square peg in a round hole, he's not midfielder or a winger, he's an attacking midfielder or second striker but eth does need to take some flack as he must be giving him the licence to force play and turn the ball over to the opposition more regularly
63 goals, 57 assists. But yeah he’s obviously the one holding this team back.
Last season both him and Sancho underperformed their xA which points to a broader issue being : our finishing is very bad.
We wouldn’t have all these debates if we could just put the ball in the net. And Bruno is among the best to put his teammates in very good positions to do
Last season both him and Sancho underperformed their xA which points to a broader issue being : our finishing is very bad.
We wouldn’t have all these debates if we could just put the ball in the net. And Bruno is among the best to put his teammates in very good positions to do
You're saying that like over 20 of his goals aren't penalties.
Even if we remove penalties that's roughly 28 goals/assists per season. I think that's pretty good. Especially when you consider the sickening number of chances created that didn't lead to a goal.
James Maddison have better stats in the last two years playing for Leicester and much less minutes played. It's really not that good for an attacking midfielder who is supposedly world class.
Surprised to read that Madison has done so well, although Bruno's dataset is nearly twice as big. I'm sure that his stats look better if you pick his two best years.
Out of interest, how many other better attacking midfielders are there in the top leagues? Preferably based the last 3.5 years (maybe a bit tricky because of the half-season in there)? I doubt it's more than De Bruyne, who to be fair is world class and already considered one of the best attacking midfielders in PL history.
Would there be a point to dropping him? A below average Bruno performance is not that much different from a good outing, same play but with 1-2 assists. If he's already here he might as well play. When you play Bruno you sort of know he's going to be wank minute per minute. You're just betting it comes with the decisive end product per 90.
Bruno has good stats but does the team benefit from it as a while, it may sound silly but rvn produced great stats but we benefited as a team from moving him on.
I get fed up with bruno's hissy fits on the pitch towards both refs and our own players with all his arm waving when he doesn't get his way, the only reason why we may regret moving on bruno is purely because of how bad we are with recruiting attackers that deliver
I get fed up with bruno's hissy fits on the pitch towards both refs and our own players with all his arm waving when he doesn't get his way, the only reason why we may regret moving on bruno is purely because of how bad we are with recruiting attackers that deliver
Would love to see him trying out Casemiro-Mainoo-Mount midfield this season.
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Everyone knows Bruno is a great player. I think he's burnt out a bit, having to carry the team for three years now. He never misses games and works hard.
Literally came to post this.
One of the best ever midfielders in prem says Bruno is the best creative midfielder in the league (excl himself).
Caf experts think he’s shit and want rid.
Bruno Fernandes would have been more respected if he plays for Manchester City.
Saying Bruno isn’t creative is like saying Ruud wasn’t a goal scorer. He’s a creative machine because he spams attempts at creating chances. You can both create chances and play shite per 90
What I don’t see game to game is arguments over his performances. Just a collection of stats after a month as of to prove he’s actually played well.
That’s a pretty flawed argument. He has the best “chances created” in the league on a regular basis every season. You can’t continuously and consistently do that while playing shite regularly when that’s his key objective, to create chances for the team. It’s like saying a striker constantly plays shit but scores every game.
Yes he gives away the ball at times carelessly which looks poor, but we aren’t going to get those killer passes if he curbs what he is doing. The nature of making risky passes is the fact it’s not always going to come off and there is “risk” attached to it which can often be detrimental to the team with counter attacks.
It’s also true Bruno can have some games where he completely falls apart. I accept he has wild fluctuations at times but they are rare as opposed to the view by some here which make out it happens all the time.
More often than not, Bruno is brilliant for us. Without him we are terrible. It’s been obvious the few times he’s been absent for us. Luckily for us he’s nearly always available. If he was ever to get a long term injury, only then would many here appreciate what he brings.
Wait, what’s the comparison to Ruud supposed to signify here? Bruno is just a creative player because he spans creative passes just like Ruud was a goalscorer just because he…was just a poacher? Ruud was recognised as a top striker for a good reason, it wasn’t some lazy assessment by people who didn’t really “get” football.
Much like you can’t just dismiss one of the most creative players of his generation recognising Bruno as the most creative midfielder in the league. That’s not just some throwaway comment that fails to take into account some wider appreciation of the game. If Bruno was somehow gaming the stats by using some cheap method, don’t you think that would factor into De Bruyne’s assessment?
Great showcasing of your reading comprehension. Really shocking, that some of the debates on here get as tense as they are.
That isn't the point, that was made. The point was - when this great player RVN left, the team as a collective became a better unit. It evolved. Nobody says that Bruno isn't producing a lot of good things, the question is, will he be able to evolve with the team or will managers continue accomodate him, potentially risking an evolution of the team as a whole.
Nobody has the answers to it. But it is a legitimate thing to discuss.
The irony of that sentence. Not sure what you’ve been reading if you haven’t seen posts of people wanting us to get rid of him.
He annoys me for giving the high turnovers, the whinging, I think he’s a terrible choice of on field captain.
But, he’s the only player trying to create anything, without him or someone like him trying something we’d be stuck with Antony and Sancho doing feck all
Until we sort out what the feck is going on with our wide players Bruno needs left alone
But, he’s the only player trying to create anything, without him or someone like him trying something we’d be stuck with Antony and Sancho doing feck all
Until we sort out what the feck is going on with our wide players Bruno needs left alone
I read criticism. Some was mild, some was pretty over the top. The circle of life as it has always been. You posting some videos where one footballer selects another footballer is nice, but it doesn't change peoples thoughts about this particular player.
There is only a small minority who isn't able to see or agree what a talent Bruno is and how important he has been to us in the close past. But we have to think progressive and that means every player has to be looked at. Even the ones some other fans, like you, seem to like dearly.
I wasn’t responding to your point, though. He wasn’t making a point about fit. He was making a point about quality. Bruno plays shit per 90 and creates chances, with some comparison to Ruud.