Same old story from this manger and this team. Play someone half decent, and we can't win.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
De Zerbi it will probably be if you are right. Cant see anyone above us or Howe coming.
Nah not having that. Onana is to blame on his own. Mctominay was a threat going forward and deserved to stay on after the goal. If Onana didn’t concede them sloppy goals then we’d of probably not gone out all attacking anyway and we’d of perhaps controlled the game a bit better. You can’t predict what’s gonna happen when the opposition as a free kick on the edge of the box. Even for their last goal, Onana was at fault what on earth was he doing of his line. Galatasaray scored all goals through the keeper fault so really it should have been 3-0.
Howe will probably be sacked before he leaves for a bigger team. What manager would leave their unlimited funds.
His in-game management is pathetic, he's useless and his subs never make sense. Honestly don't know what goes through his mind sometimes.
I just hope he bought Mason Mount to challenge and eventually replace Bruno because he recognises the hinderous side of the Portuguese. If he's thinking along these lines, there's hope yet.
I'm guessing xG / xPts. This table shows United 6th on xPts. Those aren't really "underlying" numbers though. They are the output of a mathematical and statistical model.
I'd take that.
We need a much better goalkeeper trainer
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Ridiculous number of of shots conceded. No control over games whatsoever. With harder games to come.
I hope he does what he has shown no signs of doing so far, so maybe this thread can be quiet for a while and people can stop making those perfectly valid criticisms 
I thought he would be more of a football man but he seems happy to play hoof ball. We're playing AWFULLY. If I'm honest, I'm quite shocked about it.
I’m not even sure that was necessary last night. He could have dropped McT and Bruno 20 yards further back and absorbed Galas attacks easily then sprung some counters with the front threes pace
Yeh absolutely. Close shop with on field players is fine. But take that pragmatic approach when 2 goals up in a must win game. I’m fuming.
My issue with Ten Haag doesn't even have much to do with Ten Haag himself. I hope he succeeds and can put us in a position where we can consistently play well whilst winning games to a level so high we can truly contend and win any competition we enter.
For me, its his job to have us playing well as a team. If our team as a whole doesn't play well, then the responsibility should fall on the manager, particularly when its a long string of performances. In our case, I can go as far as saying we haven't played well all season. Regardless of injuries, at a club like United with the type of expectations we have and the type of money we've spent, is unacceptable. It's one thing to have a poor string of games after previously providing a period of success and proving that your systems and strategies work. Sir Alex at certain points in his career had spells of bad performances, but we could always identify his style and system. We could also identify that he had previously had success with that style and system, so it was easy to trust. Ten Haag hasn't proven his style and system works in England or at United. During his spell, we haven't scored many goals and we're not great at creating a myriad of chances. We haven't enjoyed the type of control in games that teams like City, Liverpool or Arsenal have. Outside of a brief period between December and February last season, we haven't proved we can play good football under Ten Haag. The only definitive statement that can be made with him is that when fully fit, we have the capacity to have a strong defence. For me, that's not enough. Ten Haag's job is to prove to fans and the club that he can actually play good enough football to win games consistently enough to truly challenge for major honours. In his time here, we haven't created many chances, controlled many games and are currently in a spell where we concede a lot.
So the question is, why should he be given as much grace as he's been given? Another, far bigger question at United is, what exactly is the manager responsible for? What can we actually hold him accountable to? For me, this is an unanswered question that has actually plagued us for the last ten years. I've seen players like Antony held accountable for poor performances. I've seen Di Maria sold for not fitting in. I've seen Pogba derided for not being 100% focused. I've seen Bruno lambasted for leadership and not playing exceptional in EVERY game. However, despite managers being sacked after their positions become untenable due to the sheer amount of losses, when are they ever truly held accountable. If a group of players come together and can't create chances, consistently concede goals and can't control games when having higher quality players than the majority of the opposition players they come across, I don't understand how that cannot be seen as the manager's fault. We bought Mount and a lot of people have already made their minds up that he's not good enough. Same with Antony. Same with Onana. How? Because they played a certain number of games for us and haven't produced enough quality to drive us forward as a team. Yet one can argue that this is the same for our manager, particularly over the course of the current season. He hasn't produced. Our team isn't playing well and we aren't dominating games we are expected to dominate. This is his second season, so enough time has been given for his playing patterns to be established enough to be clear. In being a manager and setting up tactics and systems, communication is key. There is a good chance that his system doesn't work in England. There's a good chance, that in England, he's a poor communicator. There's a chance that the size of the club is too much for him to handle. Yet when our fans make excuses for him and at first sight blame individual players and the club for team performances on the pitch, their doing the club a disservice by not actually evaluating the manager. Performance on the pitch is how his job is measured. United could have a terrible season, but Bruno could create a billion chances and still have a good one. It's Bruno's job to ensure he produces good enough performances to try to help the team. It's Ten Haag's job to get the team playing well enough to win games consistently at a level that can have us challenging. It's not the fans job to support the manager. The fans should be supporting the club and assessing the manager's performance. In the same way Maguire can have terrible performances and be evaluated, our fans should start looking at our managers in the same way, because they are even more responsible for poor performances than our players.
Why do I say this? Too many times I hear fans say " the players should be ashamed of themselves", " I feel sorry for what the manager has to deal with" " How's he supposed to know that player a would make a mistake and cost us the game?". The manager is accountable for everything happening on the pitch. Just like in the NBA, the collation of results and performances determine how good of a job that manager has done. Lebron can score 16 points in a game, but average 27 plus points at the end of the season because he plays well most of the time. We can then conclude that he's had a good season because for the most part he scored a lot of points ( averaged good rebounds and assists too), whilst having a good shooting percentage. It's the same for managers. At present, he's doing a really poor job this season and he hasn't been good enough prior to this for us to expect that this wouldn't be the standard. Not realizing that early enough with Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole has been what has led us to failure over the last ten years. Ten Haag has to prove that he can perform and fans shouldn't be so quick to rise to his defence until he proves that.
For me, its his job to have us playing well as a team. If our team as a whole doesn't play well, then the responsibility should fall on the manager, particularly when its a long string of performances. In our case, I can go as far as saying we haven't played well all season. Regardless of injuries, at a club like United with the type of expectations we have and the type of money we've spent, is unacceptable. It's one thing to have a poor string of games after previously providing a period of success and proving that your systems and strategies work. Sir Alex at certain points in his career had spells of bad performances, but we could always identify his style and system. We could also identify that he had previously had success with that style and system, so it was easy to trust. Ten Haag hasn't proven his style and system works in England or at United. During his spell, we haven't scored many goals and we're not great at creating a myriad of chances. We haven't enjoyed the type of control in games that teams like City, Liverpool or Arsenal have. Outside of a brief period between December and February last season, we haven't proved we can play good football under Ten Haag. The only definitive statement that can be made with him is that when fully fit, we have the capacity to have a strong defence. For me, that's not enough. Ten Haag's job is to prove to fans and the club that he can actually play good enough football to win games consistently enough to truly challenge for major honours. In his time here, we haven't created many chances, controlled many games and are currently in a spell where we concede a lot.
So the question is, why should he be given as much grace as he's been given? Another, far bigger question at United is, what exactly is the manager responsible for? What can we actually hold him accountable to? For me, this is an unanswered question that has actually plagued us for the last ten years. I've seen players like Antony held accountable for poor performances. I've seen Di Maria sold for not fitting in. I've seen Pogba derided for not being 100% focused. I've seen Bruno lambasted for leadership and not playing exceptional in EVERY game. However, despite managers being sacked after their positions become untenable due to the sheer amount of losses, when are they ever truly held accountable. If a group of players come together and can't create chances, consistently concede goals and can't control games when having higher quality players than the majority of the opposition players they come across, I don't understand how that cannot be seen as the manager's fault. We bought Mount and a lot of people have already made their minds up that he's not good enough. Same with Antony. Same with Onana. How? Because they played a certain number of games for us and haven't produced enough quality to drive us forward as a team. Yet one can argue that this is the same for our manager, particularly over the course of the current season. He hasn't produced. Our team isn't playing well and we aren't dominating games we are expected to dominate. This is his second season, so enough time has been given for his playing patterns to be established enough to be clear. In being a manager and setting up tactics and systems, communication is key. There is a good chance that his system doesn't work in England. There's a good chance, that in England, he's a poor communicator. There's a chance that the size of the club is too much for him to handle. Yet when our fans make excuses for him and at first sight blame individual players and the club for team performances on the pitch, their doing the club a disservice by not actually evaluating the manager. Performance on the pitch is how his job is measured. United could have a terrible season, but Bruno could create a billion chances and still have a good one. It's Bruno's job to ensure he produces good enough performances to try to help the team. It's Ten Haag's job to get the team playing well enough to win games consistently at a level that can have us challenging. It's not the fans job to support the manager. The fans should be supporting the club and assessing the manager's performance. In the same way Maguire can have terrible performances and be evaluated, our fans should start looking at our managers in the same way, because they are even more responsible for poor performances than our players.
Why do I say this? Too many times I hear fans say " the players should be ashamed of themselves", " I feel sorry for what the manager has to deal with" " How's he supposed to know that player a would make a mistake and cost us the game?". The manager is accountable for everything happening on the pitch. Just like in the NBA, the collation of results and performances determine how good of a job that manager has done. Lebron can score 16 points in a game, but average 27 plus points at the end of the season because he plays well most of the time. We can then conclude that he's had a good season because for the most part he scored a lot of points ( averaged good rebounds and assists too), whilst having a good shooting percentage. It's the same for managers. At present, he's doing a really poor job this season and he hasn't been good enough prior to this for us to expect that this wouldn't be the standard. Not realizing that early enough with Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole has been what has led us to failure over the last ten years. Ten Haag has to prove that he can perform and fans shouldn't be so quick to rise to his defence until he proves that.
If the Attack would score more regularly then the Midfield wouldn't need to compensate as much and a balance could be found.
Things can change quickly in football. The biggest impact would be for Hojlund to score a brace in the league.
Things can change quickly in football. The biggest impact would be for Hojlund to score a brace in the league.
Yup. When was the last time we beat a side that was a little unexpected?
What’s that from?
Paying around £141m for Mount & Antony was absolutely mental. Surely we could have found a cheaper RW and better midfield fit.
Wouldn't mind betting Bayindir doesn't get a minute before Onana goes to AFCON either. That would mean him admitting a mistake and he's too stubborn to do that. We know from experience he opts to play people when they are low on confidence.
It will be interesting to see if he recognizes that and learns. I'm sure he reads the papers and hears all the talk. I didn't realize it while watching the match but year, McT probably should of been replaced instead of Ama or he should of instructed McT to stay back after we got the 3-1 lead. I'm confident he will get the message.
Give Ten Hag 400 mill to spend then sack him before he figures it out. Hope the next guy can figure it out while he's now saddled with Oles and Ten Hags bad signings. Cant possibly go wrong.
Yeah will be staggered if we take many points up to xmas,might beat Bournemouth and maybe draw at West Ham if Onana avoids mistakes
Me too. I can't believe we don't play more compact in general but definitely when we are leading. Doesn't make any freaking sense
I think he has the same problem like LVG had. LVG can play attacking football but the defence will be left quite open. If he played more defensive the goal dry up. LVG started to play defensive once we got pumped by Leceister and started the zombie football until he was sacked.
They seem to can't play both attack and defence well. There are many similarities too especially our build up and counter attack are so slow and predictable especially in PL. We were so easy to defence against.
They seem to can't play both attack and defence well. There are many similarities too especially our build up and counter attack are so slow and predictable especially in PL. We were so easy to defence against.
I’ve been a lurker on this forum for almost two decades. I have never seen fans make excuses for a manager like this.
Sir Alex was criticised a lot during that 2003-07 transitional period, and then the whole ‘value for money’ stuff after we sold Cristiano, alongside the fact that we were so used to winning that we wanted to see more attractive football.
Moyesy never stood a chance. The club was too big for him. Van Gaal and Jose had criticism over their style of play and personality. Ole also never stood a chance in the eyes of many fans.
But Ten Hag gets every excuse under the sun. It’s either the players or the owners, but it’s never the manager who has got us repeatedly playing the same ugly football with the same inability to control games.
What is so special about this guy? Why does he get the grace that Ole, Jose or LvG never got?
The fact that we are only 6 points off top despite losing so many games speaks volumes about how weak the league is this season. We should be challenging. Instead, we’re happy to be in a fight for top 6. The bar is on the floor.
Sir Alex was criticised a lot during that 2003-07 transitional period, and then the whole ‘value for money’ stuff after we sold Cristiano, alongside the fact that we were so used to winning that we wanted to see more attractive football.
Moyesy never stood a chance. The club was too big for him. Van Gaal and Jose had criticism over their style of play and personality. Ole also never stood a chance in the eyes of many fans.
But Ten Hag gets every excuse under the sun. It’s either the players or the owners, but it’s never the manager who has got us repeatedly playing the same ugly football with the same inability to control games.
What is so special about this guy? Why does he get the grace that Ole, Jose or LvG never got?
The fact that we are only 6 points off top despite losing so many games speaks volumes about how weak the league is this season. We should be challenging. Instead, we’re happy to be in a fight for top 6. The bar is on the floor.
LvG coached a team that could control games either through possession or by absorbing pressure and playing on the counter. The “zombie” football wasn’t always present. We blew big teams away on occaison. We dominated Liverpool at Anfield, beat Spurs, City, Spurs and Arsenal convincingly at home.
Both managers had a rigid structure but LvG was at least flexible. This manager sticks to the same tactics and system even though they just do not work. We’re getting bailed out by the fact that we have better players than most opponents, but the minute we faced a team of similar quality who are better drilled, we get destroyed. This seldom happened with LvG because the gaps weren’t there for opponents to exploit.
I’m more impressed by ETH’s ability to grind out wins than he’s given credit for here. Yes of course we should be hammering clubs that instead we’re only beating 1-0, but where I’m really struggling with ETH is his poor squad building.
Antony, Mount and Onana were idiotic buys.
Antony, Mount and Onana were idiotic buys.
Disagree. That's lazy comparison.
LVG's style is always more pragmatic among total football school. His Netherland sides were not that exciting even when they had better attacking talents. He would always find fault and micro managing players even in attack: Herrera was corrected after scoring a goal because he took the shot first time instead of taking a first touch like LVG wanted for example.
Leicester result was one thing. LVG would always try to coach players into his robotic approach. There is a reason he had issue with Brazillian players who often played with natural instinct and free thinking.
LVG's philosophy issue is that it is too allergenic to direct football: almost always taking short corner which many times resulted in passing all the way back to our CBs and DDG, and/or lack of running in behind counter attacking option (LVG had zero issue with Martial style of play).
Absorbing pressure and playing on the counter is not so LVG. We didn't create much under LVG not because we sit deep in low block waiting for counter. It's more to do with overcomplicating the desire to keep possession that players chose safe passes, which usually sideways or back to CBs and DDG. The ball was not well progress into goal scoring position enough.
Also, LVG is as inflexible as it gets. ETH maybe stubborn on some aspect, but he clearly tries to adapt to the players for the better and worse (playing a counter attacking style). The issue with ETH this season is the change into a team relying solely on counter attack, where he's not well versed in absorbing pressure, nor making the most out of less direct players like Antony, Eriksen.
LVG gave youth chance because he couldn't sell his ideas to experienced players. Young players are more open to follow him to get chances. It's a double edge sword. Good young players may benefit from the chances, but as we saw with hindsight, plenty of players LVG gave chances too ended up with nothing career after moving away.
ETH man management issue seems that he lack the understanding of big ego players. He bring discipline which is needed, but it seems he can overstep and rub the players the wrong way, too.
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You're right. However all this proves is that we've been saddled with poor managers since Sir Alex came. Either coming at the wrong time in their career or never being good enough in the first place. For me, Ten Haag is the first manager that we hired that on the basis of what we wanted, should have hired. It was a gamble and there's a good chance that he just isn't good enough. Fans and the media need to accept that fact. 5 managers in 10 years isn't bad considering how far we've dropped off. For me, we need to be much better about knowing when we need to cut our losses.
All incredibly expensive too.
Ye one of his biggest weaknesses which is a surprise because last season I think we had one of the best impact in games from subs.
I think a lot of people convinced themselves that Ten Hag was the real deal. He was built up to be the first real modern manager we've had, and therefore the turning point that'd finally see us playing fast attacking football and going toe to toe with Klopp and Pep.
In reality he's no where near that level. But some people are happy to die on that hill because delusion is more comforting than reality
xG, xGD and even GD.
It's because a lot of fans have it in their mind that he's our last chance at a successful rebuild. We've been through five failed managers and to them if Erik doesn't succeed then nobody will.
I agree with them in the sense our entire club structure is the root cause of our problems but I also do not believe that even with the right structure Erik is ever going to be winning titles with us. He's not the main problem, but he's still a problem.
Id like to see how his in game management is when we have a full compliment of players.
In the Gala game he could have brought on Mainoo for Scott, that’s a fair tactical point. But it’s an 18 year old who has one super 70 mins in the previous game. It’s like people think he’s a bench of world class alternatives and making a sub is the obvious choice. Yeh, the man United manager is relying on an unproven 18 year old in a vital game and the issue is not that a United manager is relying on an 18 year old.
I mean even the “he should drop Rashford or Onana etc” logic from some is flawed. If he dropped every under performing player he’d be dropping every other player every other week. With the injuries we have had some people don’t seem to grasp it gives the manager less options. Managers do play their first team players through poor form at times, but the difference is usually that top teams are playing well to help the experienced players find form.
And people wanting Rashford replaced by Garnacho. I don’t completely disagree with the sentiment to be honest but again a uniteds managers best option is an unproven youth player. That’s been a huge issue for me and has been an issue for a decade, our managers are stuck with unbalanced squads and poor alternative options.
There has been so many games over the years where I see people post “make a change/sub” and you look at the sub bench that’s less then inspiring and I’m wondering who exactly people are talking about bringing on.
Because he got to a CL semi final with Ajax 4 years ago. We should have probably took more notice that he lost the tie from 3 goals up - a sign of things to come.
Some of you must have missed the amazing excuses for Jose, and especially Ole 
Stop acting like this is a new phenomena and just be truthful ffs. If you think ETH is shite, then cool, but stop pretending these ridiculous excuses weren't made for other managers just because you're on a different side of the coin now.
Stop acting like this is a new phenomena and just be truthful ffs. If you think ETH is shite, then cool, but stop pretending these ridiculous excuses weren't made for other managers just because you're on a different side of the coin now.
I can’t speak for others but I don’t see ETH as “our last chance” for anything. I just don’t see anybody else making a decent go of things while the club isn’t restructured in a manner fit for a quality manager to come in and make the most of our resources.
I don’t know what ETH can or will do for us but for a multitude of reasons I don’t believe he’s had a decent crack at it.
If he had 400 million spent and absolutely no other issues , I’d be more skeptical, but seriously, the sh*t that’s been going on in and outside the dressingroom has been unreal.
one disgruntled player can unsettle a squad. Replacing a keeper can unsettle a squad. Having lots of players injured can unsettle a squad. Ownership change can unsettle a squad. Two woman beating cases could unsettle a squad. Taking over an already unsettled squad can lead to failure quickly. No fit or decent striker (weghorst) for a season can unsettle teams. Replacing a world class striker like ronaldo with weghorst could unsettle a squad of ambitious players.
ETH has had all these issues and in his first 18 months at the club and some are acting like “well 400 million was spent” as if that trumps everything else.
I want to see what an ETH fully fit team can do with no other distractions. Then we can fairly assess his competency’s. The issue for me is that no other manager has all these problems and yet fans expect “a style of play” in a “yeh Theres issues but no excuse” kind of sentiment which is reductive.
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I think he made a mistake the other night when bringing Mainoo on, not bringing Mainoo on but rather taking Amrabat off. When the change was about to be made I was certain Kobbie was coming on for Antony, pushing Bruno wide and locking down the midfield.
Being 2 goals up in a must win champions league game, away from home, in a hostile atmosphere like that I do not understand how that is a good time to substitute your most defensive minded midfielder
Being 2 goals up in a must win champions league game, away from home, in a hostile atmosphere like that I do not understand how that is a good time to substitute your most defensive minded midfielder
You know what they say about insanity right? And you throw in his OTT charisma, transfer and man management skills.. we have a perfect storm gentlemen.