Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[Licha-Vidic]

We are 11 on passes sequence in EPL.

We can't string more passes in a sequence, more than other 10 teams in the league. The result of all this is, zero control. This is our main problem.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[stefan92]

We are 11 on passes sequence in EPL.

We can't string more passes in a sequence, more than other 10 teams in the league. The result of all this is, zero control. This is our main problem.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Interesting stat - also the "Direct Speed" is quite telling. Only West Ham, Nottingham, Everton and Liverpool play more direct than United.

 

[anant]

Interesting stat - also the "Direct Speed" is quite telling. Only West Ham, Nottingham, Everton and Liverpool play more direct than United.

tbf, it just reinforces the idea that we are a more transition based team than a possession based team

 

[stefan92]

tbf, it just reinforces the idea that we are a more transition based team than a possession based team

Yes. It shows that EtH puts his money where his mouth is - he said he wanted to become the best transition team in the league and the style of play statistically proves that he tries that. Is it good enough executed at the moment? Surely not. Is this how EtH wants to play? This is an indication that it is - which also explains we he so often says he is happy with the team.

 

[anant]

Yes. It shows that EtH puts his money where his mouth is - he said he wanted to become the best transition team in the league and the style of play statistically proves that he tries that. Is it good enough executed at the moment? Surely not. Is this how EtH wants to play? This is an indication that it is - which also explains we he so often says he is happy with the team.

But it also makes signing of Antony more idiotic. I'd also say we needed a Fred type of player as well in that case, and I don't think Eriksen is a player for this type of football.

 

[stefan92]

But it also makes signing of Antony more idiotic. I'd also say we needed a Fred type of player as well in that case, and I don't think Eriksen is a player for this type of football.

I won't disagree with this. It looks like he at some point changed his mind about how he wants to play and his recruitment doesn't really fit the style he currently tries. Which is a big part of why I don't think he should be allowed to stay.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

We are 11 on passes sequence in EPL.
We can't string more passes in a sequence, more than other 10 teams in the league. The result of all this is, zero control. This is our main problem.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Those numbers all seem a bit similar. The difference between United and Aston Villa is one extra pass every 10 sequences.

 

[el3mel]

It's because a lot of fans have it in their mind that he's our last chance at a successful rebuild. We've been through five failed managers and to them if Erik doesn't succeed then nobody will.

I agree with them in the sense our entire club structure is the root cause of our problems but I also do not believe that even with the right structure Erik is ever going to be winning titles with us. He's not the main problem, but he's still a problem.

This is a ridiculous concept that I hope no one actually believes this.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Those numbers all seem a bit similar. The difference between United and Aston Villa is one extra pass every 10 sequences.

It does look similar but, boy make no mistake. We can't hold on the ball more than 10 seconds on average. I have always said, we need players who can hold on to the ball for 5-10 more seconds for us to achieve anything meaningful.

Yet City hold on to the ball, 5 seconds more than us. Add that to like 5 players doing it as norm, it equates to significant difference between us and team like city. We need 5 more players who can hold the ball 5 more seconds under extreme pressure. This will transform the team immensely.

 

[sugar_kane]

What is so special about this guy? Why does he get the grace that Ole, Jose or LvG never got?

For a start, he finished higher in the league than all three of those did in their first seasons and won a trophy. He also has a win rate significantly higher than any of them.

He's been dealing with so much more shit than any of them ever had to either, eg. Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood.

But more than that, most of us are at the point now where we realise that solely blaming the manager for the club's footballing failures is futile, as is changing the manager every two years.

 

[Conor]

I think he has the same problem like LVG had. LVG can play attacking football but the defence will be left quite open. If he played more defensive the goal dry up. LVG started to play defensive once we got pumped by Leceister and started the zombie football until he was sacked.

They seem to can't play both attack and defence well. There are many similarities too especially our build up and counter attack are so slow and predictable especially in PL. We were so easy to defence against.

Or, the more likely thing, you need extremely good players in key positions to play attacking football and not be completely open. See Liverpool pre Fabinho and Van Dijk.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

Massive game for him tomorrow. It’s about time he shows signs of managing us to victory in a big away game.

 

[sugar_kane]

I think he has the same problem like LVG had. LVG can play attacking football but the defence will be left quite open. If he played more defensive the goal dry up. LVG started to play defensive once we got pumped by Leceister and started the zombie football until he was sacked.

Sorry mate but that's one of the biggest forum myths going, we were shite before Leicester under LVG.

16 August 2014	Swansea City	H	1–2	Rooney 53'	75,339	16th
24 August 2014	Sunderland	A	1–1	Mata 17'	43,217	13th
30 August 2014	Burnley	A	0–0		31,399	14th
14 September 2014	Queens Park Rangers	H	4–0	Di María 24', Herrera 36', Rooney 44', Mata 58'	75,355	9th
21 September 2014	Leicester City	A	3–5	Van Persie 13', Di María 16', Herrera 57'	31,784	12th

He started to get going towards the end of the first season (the fabled trio of matches against Spurs, Liverpool & City) but after Arsenal the next season when he started Carrick/Schweinsteiger in midfield and we got battered is where he started to get really negative to the point of us being completely unwatchable.

In Nov/December we didn't win a game for six matches straight, he somehow survived the sack and we were just on life support for the rest of the season.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Sorry mate but that's one of the biggest forum myths going, we were shite before Leicester under LVG.

16 August 2014	Swansea City	H	1–2	Rooney 53'	75,339	16th
24 August 2014	Sunderland	A	1–1	Mata 17'	43,217	13th
30 August 2014	Burnley	A	0–0		31,399	14th
14 September 2014	Queens Park Rangers	H	4–0	Di María 24', Herrera 36', Rooney 44', Mata 58'	75,355	9th
21 September 2014	Leicester City	A	3–5	Van Persie 13', Di María 16', Herrera 57'	31,784	12th

He started to get going towards the end of the first season (the fabled trio of matches against Spurs, Liverpool & City) but after Arsenal the next season when he started Carrick/Schweinsteiger in midfield and we got battered is where he started to get really negative to the point of us being completely unwatchable.

In Nov/December we didn't win a game for six matches straight, he somehow survived the sack and we were just on life support for the rest of the season.

I can't really remember the details. Broadly, many of us remember that we play attacking football initially even though our results were not good. After Leceister game, the approach certainly totally changed and it got worse and worse in LVG time to the point that many fans fell asleep watching us play.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Or, the more likely thing, you need extremely good players in key positions to play attacking football and not be completely open. See Liverpool pre Fabinho and Van Dijk.

Well, there should be a middle way in the transition during rebuild? Many teams with less "quality players and resources" than us play much better football.

From day one, Klopp was showing signs of building something special with or without Fabinho and Van Dijk.

 

[Conor]

Well, there should be a middle way in the transition during rebuild? Many teams with less "quality players and resources" than us play much better football.

From day one, Klopp was showing signs of building something special with or without Fabinho and Van Dijk.

Klopp was conceding goals up to his eye balls before he got key players, they were just outscoring teams. We are playing subs that our manager specifically tried to sell during the summer in midfield and defence.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Klopp was conceding goals up to his eye balls before he got key players, they were just outscoring teams. We are playing subs that our manager specifically tried to sell during the summer in midfield and defence.

Yes, but he was clearly building something special even in early stage with gegenpressing attacking football. Their style of play was clear and entertaining. Without Abu Dhabi unlimited funds, he could have dominated PL.

 

[Donut]

Can’t shake the feeling that a lot of other managers would do much better than him, be it tactics, man management or transfers. The only things I can give him credit for are Garnacho and Mainoo, but they are world class talents and we have a lot of injuries.

 

[Fortitude]

We are 11 on passes sequence in EPL.

We can't string more passes in a sequence, more than other 10 teams in the league. The result of all this is, zero control. This is our main problem.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Thanks for this. Definitely a massive bone of contention for me. Tells why we can't control a game to save our lives.

 

[Ocelot]

I’ve been a lurker on this forum for almost two decades. I have never seen fans make excuses for a manager like this.

Sir Alex was criticised a lot during that 2003-07 transitional period, and then the whole ‘value for money’ stuff after we sold Cristiano, alongside the fact that we were so used to winning that we wanted to see more attractive football.

Moyesy never stood a chance. The club was too big for him. Van Gaal and Jose had criticism over their style of play and personality. Ole also never stood a chance in the eyes of many fans.

But Ten Hag gets every excuse under the sun. It’s either the players or the owners, but it’s never the manager who has got us repeatedly playing the same ugly football with the same inability to control games.

What is so special about this guy? Why does he get the grace that Ole, Jose or LvG never got?

The fact that we are only 6 points off top despite losing so many games speaks volumes about how weak the league is this season. We should be challenging. Instead, we’re happy to be in a fight for top 6. The bar is on the floor.

Only 3 managers in our history have won the league. That's unheard of for a club this size. Most people now realise firing and hiring another manager will achieve nothing without changing the structure of the club. We're not a Madrid or even a Chelsea from a few years ago where we can cycle through managers and expect success. It hasn't happened before and it won't now.

 

[Gehrman]

Only 3 managers in our history have won the league. That's unheard of for a club this size. Most people now realise firing and hiring another manager will achieve nothing without changing the structure of the club. We're not a Madrid or even a Chelsea from a few years ago where we can cycle through managers and expect success. It hasn't happened before and it won't now.

But doesnt it make sense for the club structure to evolve rather than wait for a Fergie and Busby every 40 years? If we spend a fortune on transfers that all turn out duds isnt it best to target our scouts, dof and manager of course.

 

[ColvaleGoa]

Disagree. That's lazy comparison.

LVG's style is always more pragmatic among total football school. His Netherland sides were not that exciting even when they had better attacking talents. He would always find fault and micro managing players even in attack: Herrera was corrected after scoring a goal because he took the shot first time instead of taking a first touch like LVG wanted for example.

Leicester result was one thing. LVG would always try to coach players into his robotic approach. There is a reason he had issue with Brazillian players who often played with natural instinct and free thinking.

LVG's philosophy issue is that it is too allergenic to direct football: almost always taking short corner which many times resulted in passing all the way back to our CBs and DDG, and/or lack of running in behind counter attacking option (LVG had zero issue with Martial style of play).


Absorbing pressure and playing on the counter is not so LVG. We didn't create much under LVG not because we sit deep in low block waiting for counter. It's more to do with overcomplicating the desire to keep possession that players chose safe passes, which usually sideways or back to CBs and DDG. The ball was not well progress into goal scoring position enough.

Also, LVG is as inflexible as it gets. ETH maybe stubborn on some aspect, but he clearly tries to adapt to the players for the better and worse (playing a counter attacking style). The issue with ETH this season is the change into a team relying solely on counter attack, where he's not well versed in absorbing pressure, nor making the most out of less direct players like Antony, Eriksen.

LVG gave youth chance because he couldn't sell his ideas to experienced players. Young players are more open to follow him to get chances. It's a double edge sword. Good young players may benefit from the chances, but as we saw with hindsight, plenty of players LVG gave chances too ended up with nothing career after moving away.

ETH man management issue seems that he lack the understanding of big ego players. He bring discipline which is needed, but it seems he can overstep and rub the players the wrong way, too.

Last season we played some exciting football. There were some games where we saw the direction we were going in. The spurs home match etc. There were foundations to build something from. Last season petered out after the CC final as we ran out of steam.

This season has been shambles due to injuries, you can accept to turn a blind eye to it. Also Mount didn't make sense . Preseason was a massive shambles . We are now suffering for this . EtH has some blame but we really need to give this a chance . Rather than jumping on manager outt bandwagon . I think RtH will be here long term.

 

[Brightonian]

Yes, but he was clearly building something special even in early stage with gegenpressing attacking football. Their style of play was clear and entertaining. Without Abu Dhabi unlimited funds, he could have dominated PL.

That's hindsight, massively. Their style was as inconsistent as their results. At times the 'gegenpress' looked like a load of clueless running and hoofing. He was getting ripped to shreds on here and RAWK fell to pieces over it time and time again.

The same is true of Arteta at Arsenal. We all knew he would pursue a Pep-esque style of football, but for a long time there was no actual discernible style to what they were doing on the pitch. There never really is when a team are playing badly.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, as the saying goes. When will people learn that changing managers when one has a bad season is never going to yield results. We've tried most different kinds of managers now: a pragmatic PL vet, an old European master, a big-name 'winner', an old player who understands the traditions of the club, and now a young European with modern coaching ideas. How many more 'types' of manager can we write off in hindsight as a bad idea before we recognise that it's not the type of manager that is the problem, it's our inability to grit our teeth and stick with them through the inevitable hurdles of trying to turn this fecking supertanker of a club around.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Klopp was conceding goals up to his eye balls before he got key players, they were just outscoring teams. We are playing subs that our manager specifically tried to sell during the summer in midfield and defence.

It's only Maguire, and it's his own choice to start him over Varane.

 

[Brightonian]

I've been really pleased with ETH's response to the Galatasaray result.

• Front and centre, he took direct responsibility.
• He rightly pointed out the overall continuing improved performances, and the fact that we ought to have won.
• He also rightly did not just let the players get away scot-free. 'I was pleased with how we played but at the same time I have to criticise the team because the defending is not good enough. We are leading 3-1 and we cannot afford mistakes as it makes a difference.'
• The language is critical, but constructively: demanding improvement, not laying blame. 'Everyone has to step up and take responsibility of their own mistakes.'
• He accepts that the results in the CL have simply not been good enough.
• Publicly, he refuses to blame an individual player, particularly when that is what everyone else is doing. He defends Ohana's overall performances ('If you analyse it well then you see he is the second-best goalkeeper in the Premier League based on stats').
• He acknowledges Onana's mistakes in the CL, he asserts his belief in his strength of character and ability to respond well.
• It doesn't actually matter if he's right - the point is you don't openly blame individual players for results, and when externally your player is getting heat, you defend them. Fergie always did it and it's the right thing to do. Mourinho, notably amongst all our post-Fergie managers, did not.

 

[Conor]

It's only Maguire, and it's his own choice to start him over Varane.

McTominay is a huge reason why we are conceding loads of chances.

 

[Mickeza]

McTominay is a huge reason why we are conceding loads of chances.

Yes. We never conceded chances with Casemiro playing. It’s all on Mctominay - the chosen scapegoat for everything.

 

[mu4c_20le]

We've conceded more with Casemiro earlier in the season believe it or not. I get the hope is that he may reach last season's level again, but right now it's not much difference and McT's goals against Brentford and sheffield arguably saved Ten Hag's job.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

We're going to go nowhere if we keep ceding possession vs any half-decent team. It doesn't work. All of the best teams the past decade were miles better than us in recycling the ball/pinning teams back via waves of sustained/controlled attacks. The point was to build towards that. This chaotic football on display won't manage much vs the top teams. Any time we face a top team lately, we look comfortably worse.

It has a ceiling cap unless you have 8-11 world class players in your team.

Also bizarre to try to play so transitional with a team that doesn’t press particularly well for an entire game and the defensive structure behind the press is horrid

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Yes. We never conceded chances with Casemiro playing. It’s all on Mctominay - the chosen scapegoat for everything.

Calling him a scapegoat when he’s been here for 5 years as the exact same fecking player is bizarre. People have eyes and can watch football you know.

 

[Conor]

Yes. We never conceded chances with Casemiro playing. It’s all on Mctominay - the chosen scapegoat for everything.

I'm not scapegoating him, I like McTominay, but he's a limited footballer, who isn't very good in a traditional midfield role. Having to play Maguire and McTominay is definitely a major contributor to our defensive issues, when we try to play attacking football. Maguire can't play a high line, and McTominay has bad positional awareness, and floats forward a lot, this leaves huge gaps that teams expose regularly.

 

[tjb]

Some of you must have missed the amazing excuses for Jose, and especially Ole

Stop acting like this is a new phenomena and just be truthful ffs. If you think ETH is shite, then cool, but stop pretending these ridiculous excuses weren't made for other managers just because you're on a different side of the coin now.

That's the point. None of our managers deserved for those excuses to be made for them. For me, the only manager we hired that deserved some form of grace was Mourinho based on his past successes in other locations. Every other manager we hired should not have received. IMO they should all have been treated the way we initially treated Moyes. With caution.

However since Moyes, we've given all the managers the keys to the kingdom. We allowed LVG to tear us apart. Mourinho was treated like the messiah and allowed to do and say what he wanted until the 18/19 season. If the board hadn't stopped him, he would have signed Perisic and Maguire. Yet still had the nerve to state that United didn't give him the player he wanted. For me, due to his own personal drive, he was the only manager we've had that seemed to have a sense of urgency. However that fight was clearly to protect his own legacy rather than to impact the club positively, which in the end was the reason for his sacking. Ole had no business being United manager for as long as he was. Again, the same sentimental trash that we led to us keeping Moyes, LVG and Mourinho longer that we should have, is the same reason we kept Ole on. Other teams have successfully had interim managers, only at United do you keep them on for average results without any confidence on whether their a good manager or not. That was another waste of 3 seasons. As a club, we knew he wasn't great tactically. We had coaches who were stronger tacticians than him in the side. There were signs about urgency, man management problems and clear tactical issues. Yet because we wanted a good sentimental story, we kept him on for 3 seasons. We also delayed hiring on a DOF to allow him to have the freedom. Even when Murtough came in, it was described as a partnership, rather than him overseeing Ole. Then we moved on to ETH. Again, trying not to impose ourselves on the manager, every statement and move was made to look like we were supporting Ten Haag in every way and giving him the keys to turn us around. Murtough wasn't empowered, so transfers were still coming from the manager. Yet again, tactically, we're struggling with the build up ( we had this down last season), controlling possession and creating chances. Ten Haag, like LVG has shown an inflexibility with personnel. Apparently, not have player x or player y means we can't play any form of good football.

The silver lining for me is that he has had a spell at United last season from late November to March, where we played good controlled football. We were winning home games, building up well and controlling possession. It's those few months that's hoping he can turn this around. However, for me, we can't afford to waste another season on someone who isn't going to take us where we want to go. There needs to be more urgency in this regard and hopefully Ratcliffe brings this and puts more pressure on managers to acheive and provides them with less control. As fans, we should expect good performances and wins from a club as big and wealthy as United. For me, not enough pressure has been coming from the club to make this happen as we've always been very easy-going in our approach with managers. We are actually the club that follows the patient approach that the media asks clubs to follow. "Its not nice sacking managers" and the media always feels sorry for them, despite asking for players to be flogged off without regard. Being too ruthless can be bad, but being as passive as we've been over the last decade will almost always lead to stagnation. Ratcliffe seems to have a bit of ruthlessness about him, and hopefully he can bring that with him to the club which would progressively stop the bleeding.

 

[Bastian]

 

[THE ZOL]

If he had 400 million spent and absolutely no other issues , I’d be more skeptical, but seriously, the sh*t that’s been going on in and outside the dressingroom has been unreal.

one disgruntled player can unsettle a squad. Replacing a keeper can unsettle a squad. Having lots of players injured can unsettle a squad. Ownership change can unsettle a squad. Two woman beating cases could unsettle a squad. Taking over an already unsettled squad can lead to failure quickly. No fit or decent striker (weghorst) for a season can unsettle teams. Replacing a world class striker like ronaldo with weghorst could unsettle a squad of ambitious players.

ETH has had all these issues and in his first 18 months at the club and some are acting like “well 400 million was spent” as if that trumps everything else.

I want to see what an ETH fully fit team can do with no other distractions. Then we can fairly assess his competency’s. The issue for me is that no other manager has all these problems and yet fans expect “a style of play” in a “yeh Theres issues but no excuse” kind of sentiment which is reductive.

This is what I mean by excuses being made for Ten Hag.

When is he going to be held to account for unsettling the squad with his own decisions and signings? His job currently being saved by Maguire and McTominay he tried to get rid of while he doesn’t even rely on his own signings is telling. Not to mention publicly humiliating Sancho and then banishing him unless he goes on his knees and kisses his feet. Even Jose was not so stubborn to insist on doing this to grown men.
We’re even excusing the £400m he spent andsuggesting he deserves another £400m despite the fact that only Lisandro has been a good signing and the others are either flopping (Onana, Hojlund) or he doesn’t trust them (Mount, Antony).

He's been dealing with so much more shit than any of them ever had to either, eg. Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood.

Again - when will some fans accept that these squad issues are of Ten Hag’s doing?

Greenwood aside, he’s fallen out with Cristiano and Sancho, plus murmurs from Cas & Varane who played a crucial part in the trophy and top 4 finish.

It seems like Ten Hag doesn’t know how to handle superstars. He’s the common denominator in all of these problems.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

This is what I mean by excuses being made for Ten Hag.

When is he going to be held to account for unsettling the squad with his own decisions and signings? His job currently being saved by Maguire and McTominay he tried to get rid of while he doesn’t even rely on his own signings is telling. Not to mention publicly humiliating Sancho and then banishing him unless he goes on his knees and kisses his feet. Even Jose was not so stubborn to insist on doing this to grown men.
We’re even excusing the £400m he spent andsuggesting he deserves another £400m despite the fact that only Lisandro has been a good signing and the others are either flopping (Onana, Hojlund) or he doesn’t trust them (Mount, Antony).



Again - when will some fans accept that these squad issues are of Ten Hag’s doing?

Greenwood aside, he’s fallen out with Cristiano and Sancho, plus murmurs from Cas & Varane who played a crucial part in the trophy and top 4 finish.

It seems like Ten Hag doesn’t know how to handle superstars. He’s the common denominator in all of these problems.

I will address your points with the same kind of detailed response you provided to my post.

 

[Atheist]

He definitely values favoritism over actual performances. Guaranteeing that a keeper who has made a number of mistakes will start the next CL game says volumes. So much for the supposed standards.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

No one had the clear competency to ask him about our defensive form ?
That in the 3 or 4 last games we had a combined amount of 70 attempted shots against us ?
I don't think there's a living keeper on this earth that can save us from conceding(or conceiving ? I'm always confused between them) so many goals

 

[Pronewbie]

His nepotistic transfers mean a low risk of dressing room revolt. For now, that's arguably his greatest tactical achievement at United.

 

[Luffy]

Ten Hag deserves more time. It might get to a point when managers of his calibre will find United too problematic or too unattractive a destination. I hope it does not come to that. But I also think that the situation is hopeless.

 

[Vidooq]

Perhaps its a case of horses for courses then. How many managers have done well at one team, only to fail at another?

Also as an aside; when folks go on about injuries, I can only think of 5 first teamers out. Casemiro, Evans, Martinez, Eriksen and Mount. You could argue Mount isnt a regular and Evans is a makeshift to cover injuries. How come other teams still manage to play decent football with a few injuries?

Lets ignore the fact that Luke Shaw and Wan-Bissaka were also injured. I dont care which coach it is, when you have more than half of your defence out, your main ball playing CB, your most experienced DM injured, and you qre constantly changing the first 11, you will struggle. City lost 3 games in a row without Rodri. 1 player only. Look at whats happening with injury plagued Totenhem and Newcastle.

The football has not been convincing, I expect an improvement once everyone is fit. But I have serious doubts if it will be enough to match the top teams. We have a goalkeeper who's confidence is shot to pieces, forward line that is having such a hard time scoring goals in the Premier League, midfield thats not balanced a team who is mentally fragile and a coach who does not make in game tactical decisions on time, or at all. I hope however that he survives by the summer and it's fully backed, as I have a feeling that he had to deal with things that no top coach does, like Sancho, Greenwood, club sale, and on top of that, worst injury period in the last 20 years.