[Oranges038]

The thing is we negated shit, as they pressed us up to our throats and pinned us in our box most of the time. They also had 69% possession because we only were able to pass it from the GK to the CB and it was pathetic, and everything else was hoof it and hope, because as shown in our case, the GK was not a priority to go toe to toe with teams like Liverpool, but midfielders and capable forward line. We barely got out without conceding thank to a great game to both of our CBs, Shaw and Dalot too.

So you don't think Utd handled Liverpools high press well? To the point where they actively stopped pressing.

 

[Adnan]

Onana may be a better passer but yesterday certainly wasn’t evidence of it. He played 14 long balls yesterday and had a 62.8% pass completion rate. I can’t find De Gea’s figures for the same fixture but it’s worse than his average last season and considerably more long balls.

Just watching the game was enough to see that Onana has passes and composure in his locker that was non-existent with De Gea. So eventhough we played in a compact lower block yesterday with Liverpool being the more proactive team with their actions, we only allowed them to be threatening up to a certain point and their best chance came from a set piece.

And you just have to listen to Jurgen Klopp in his post match interview where he said that this time United carried a build up threat from Onana which they had to adjust to, where as previously they (United) would just go long.

 

[tomaldinho1]

No, but nobody is saying it does? Must every single metric be included all the time, to avoid somebody interpreting one point like clean sheets, as being the only important one. In this case too, it is fair to say it arguably deserves more weight as onana has been the only constant behind a ridiculously chopped and changed defence. We're incredibly quick to say certain keepers cant organise their defence or inspire confidence, but dont want to entertain this when it doesnt suit.

Clean sheets are an important thing, but not a defining stat - but nobody is claiming it is. This isnt a controversial or arguable things to say, the only reason I can think its triggered some people is because theyve already made their mind up on Onana.

There was a poster using it as a key stat previously which is why I think it's been brought up now sarcastically.

 

[Oranges038]

There was a poster using it as a key stat previously which is why I think it's been brought up now sarcastically.

It's why I used it.

 

[acnumber9]

FBRef have both match reports.
7-0
0-0

Onana had 100% Save % with PSxG of 1.4
De Gea had 12.5% Save % with PSxG of 3.9

Both of them were very poor at dealing with crosses but Onana was worse (3.2% for Onana, 6.7% for DDG)
Average pass length was similar (38.5 m for Onana vs 40.6m for DDG)
When Onana hit the ball long his pass completion was slightly better than DDG (44.4% vs 37.5%)
He also hit it long slightly less often than DDG (51.3% vs 57.6%)

The biggest difference between them was their actions as a sweeper. For Onana his average position was 18m off his line. For DDG an absolutely pathetic 5.7m.

That last stat alone will have made a huge difference in helping to keep Liverpool at arm's length.

Except Liverpool actually had more of the ball yesterday than they did in that freak match last season. The main difference this season is our defenders actually tried to defend and Liverpool were shit. I’m not sure the keepers starting position is the difference. How many balls did he actually sweep?

 

[Pronewbie]

Just watching the game was enough to see that Onana has passes and composure in his locker that was non-existent with De Gea. So eventhough we played in a compact lower block yesterday with Liverpool being the more proactive team with their actions, we only allowed them to be threatening up to a certain point and their best chance came from a set piece.

And you just have to listen to Jurgen Klopp in his post match interview where he said that this time United carried a build up threat from Onana which they had to adjust to, where as previously they (United) would just go long.

Im surprised people are sticking with the lazy narrative Gary Neville, Carragher and some of the the British pundits were droning about in the 1st half.

These are the same experts who criticise our inability to build out from the back.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't springs to mind. They very clearly have it out for us, if not Onana. And our fans need to be clear minded about that.

 

[acnumber9]

Just watching the game was enough to see that Onana has passes and composure in his locker that was non-existent with De Gea. So eventhough we played in a compact lower block yesterday with Liverpool being the more proactive team with their actions, we only allowed them to be threatening up to a certain point and their best chance came from a set piece.

And you just have to listen to Jurgen Klopp in his post match interview where he said that this time United carried a build up threat from Onana which they had to adjust to, where as previously they (United) would just go long.

Our defence allowed that. It had nothing to do with Onana’s passing yesterday. What Klopp said doesn’t match up with fact. Onana went long considerably more than De Gea did in the same fixture last year.

 

[Adnan]

Our defence allowed that. It had nothing to do with Onana’s passing yesterday. What Klopp said doesn’t match up with fact. Onana went long considerably more than De Gea did in the same fixture last year.

Onana played several passes which alleviated pressure on many occasions in the game. And De Gea didn't have those passes in his locker hence both Klopp and Guardiola have mentioned him being someone who constantly went long. The passes into midfield, the clip over the top to the fullbacks and the pass to Antony are just some of the passes that De Gea just couldn't execute. And it's no surprise to me that he seems to have retired because his ego wouldn't allow him to sign up for a team like Real Betis, which imo is his level in the game today.

It's absolutely fine to question Onana and even criticise him imo. But to move De Gea on was the correct decision for footballing reasons.

 

[Kostov]

So you don't think Utd handled Liverpools high press well? To the point where they actively stopped pressing.

We handled feck all, played like cowards and barely kept the ball for 15 seconds. If "handling" pressure is passing the ball from the GK to the CBs and back just to lose it 10 seconds later when the full back has not obvious progression to make, I obviously don't understand football. We conceded 21 shots and it was an open season to our goal, so what exactly did we "handle"?

 

[Oranges038]

We handled feck all, played like cowards and barely kept the ball for 15 seconds. If "handling" pressure is passing the ball from the GK to the CBs and back just to lose it 10 seconds later when the full back has not obvious progression to make, I obviously don't understand football. We conceded 21 shots and it was an open season to our goal, so what exactly did we "handle"?

There's no point. Poster above @Adnan has explained it several times. I can't be arsed continuing with this.

 

[CoopersDream]

He's made 4 less high claims so far than we saw all last season.

While it is an improvement obviously he's still in like 15th place in the league if you combine goalkeepers from other clubs (clubs that have used multiple).

If he keeps on like he has he will reach 24 claims before the end of the season which is 9 more than de Gea (or one claim every fourth game). The idea that this is some huge improvement is a bit misleading.

 

[poleglass red]

He didn't mess up, which is a bonus. His distribution as usual was hit and miss, at one point he kicked two passes in a row into touch. He is what he is, we are stuck with him, ETH isn't going to drop him, so hopefully keeping a clean sheet in this game gives him some confidence moving forward.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Our defence allowed that. It had nothing to do with Onana’s passing yesterday. What Klopp said doesn’t match up with fact. Onana went long considerably more than De Gea did in the same fixture last year.

He didn't though. That's the opposite to what actually happened. You've seen the stats. Why do you keep saying this?

 

[Alemar]

Onana goes long because he often doesn’t have better options. Players should make themselves available for passes, that’s also part of the problem.

 

[SER19]

We handled feck all, played like cowards and barely kept the ball for 15 seconds. If "handling" pressure is passing the ball from the GK to the CBs and back just to lose it 10 seconds later when the full back has not obvious progression to make, I obviously don't understand football. We conceded 21 shots and it was an open season to our goal, so what exactly did we "handle"?

You say that, but I cant remember them actually creating a good chance, and we're the only team in all competitions to stop them scoring at anfield this season. Im sorry, but ive watched football long enough to know that you take a point at anfield and move on, especially if youre in a place as poor as we are with a better XI injured or suspended than what we have. Liverpool stat padding with countless punts at goal doesnt disprove anything. Liverpool didnt get to play the way they wanted to, because we handled it. I dont know why it upsets you so much

 

[SER19]

Onana goes long because he often doesn’t have better options. Players should make themselves available for passes, that’s also part of the problem.

exactly, he'll be even better when martinez is back and when we sign a right back with real passing ability.

 

[lex talionis]

Onana kept a clean sheet against a top club in their fabled fortress. That’s a job well done.

Yes, we can pick apart his poor command of the box and comical long balls into touch, but apart from that he was fantastic.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Onana kept a clean sheet against a top club in their fabled fortress. That’s a job well done.

Yes, we can pick apart his poor command of the box and comical long balls into touch, but apart from that he was fantastic.

'pick apart his poor command of box and comical long balls.' Arent those the reasons we supposedly paid £50m for him, a keeper who was available on a free last summer. And weren't almost all his saves straight at him? One that went wide by a whisker he had taken a step the other way (which he often does) and couldnt move.

 

[Plant0x84]

It's actually unlucky if you concede a penalty as a keeper there. They are very rarely given.

It's definitely at the point where you seem so caught up with a thread you created that you will criticise the guy no matter what.

It that thread is not this. Also if he does well I’ll happily give him his props, but I’m so unimpressed right now and him whimpering in the media about he knows he can do much better doesn’t help things. Less talk, show us lad!
For what it’s worth, I don’t actually think he’s a bad keeper, but I do believe that Man Utd is too big for him.

 

[acnumber9]

He didn't though. That's the opposite to what actually happened. You've seen the stats. Why do you keep saying this?

Because per the stats Onana attempted 33 long passes to De Gea’s 19. It was a lower percentage of his total passes. That doesn’t mean he didn’t play longer than De Gea did. And it’s not the reason Liverpool didn’t score 7 yesterday or the reason we were under less pressure given they had more of the ball.

 

[lex talionis]

'pick apart his poor command of box and comical long balls.' Arent those the reasons we supposedly paid £50m for him, a keeper who was available on a free last summer. And weren't almost all his saves straight at him? One that went wide by a whisker he had taken a step the other way (which he often does) and couldnt move.

There’s no need to lecture me about the stupidity of getting rid of De Gea and spending 40m on an inferior keeper who literally crashed us out of the CL, but I’m only saying here that Onana kept a clean sheet at Anfield, which everyone here know is an achievement. He made the saves he needed to make, which is far and away the top requirement of the job.

On a day like that, especially after how poor he’s been this season (even though the stats say he’s been brilliant this season) a pat on the back for a job well done is in order.

 

[acnumber9]

Onana played several passes which alleviated pressure on many occasions in the game. And De Gea didn't have those passes in his locker hence both Klopp and Guardiola have mentioned him being someone who constantly went long. The passes into midfield, the clip over the top to the fullbacks and the pass to Antony are just some of the passes that De Gea just couldn't execute. And it's no surprise to me that he seems to have retired because his ego wouldn't allow him to sign up for a team like Real Betis, which imo is his level in the game today.

It's absolutely fine to question Onana and even criticise him imo. But to move De Gea on was the correct decision for footballing reasons.

I’m not questioning whether it was right to move De Gea on. I’m questioning the idea Onana’s passing was the reason why we didn’t get thumped yesterday. It simply wasn’t.

 

[Remember the geese]

There’s no need to lecture me about the stupidity of getting rid of De Gea and spending 40m on an inferior keeper who literally crashed us out of the CL

Very obvious that you're still crying inside, whilst feigning to come across as balanced. Amusing.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Has anybody mentioned he was on a free last year yet.

 

[Adnan]

I’m not questioning whether it was right to move De Gea on. I’m questioning the idea Onana’s passing was the reason why we didn’t get thumped yesterday. It simply wasn’t.

I disagree.

His passing and composure did mean Liverpool couldn't press as high as they normally do at Anfield and Klopp quite clearly acknowledged that in his post match interview. And one of the reasons we got thumped last season was due to not having any answers to Liverpool's high pressing tactics, where their press was even more aggressive than yesterday. And their press was more aggressive because they knew who was occupying position in goal and how limited he was on the ball. When you have a GK who is limited on the ball and then come up against a team who is coached to be aggressive in the press from the front, then your midfield won't be as effective you'd like. And the reason they won't be effective, is due to the opponent committing a high volume of players into areas occupied by the midfielders, which will then require the free man to make the difference to progress play. Sadly for us the free man was De Gea and his limitations on the ball meant we had even bigger problems playing through midfield.

So having a GK who is capable on the ball opens up possibilities that didn't previously exist and creates doubts in the opponent's mind about how aggressive they can go with their press.

 

[acnumber9]

I disagree.

His passing and composure did mean Liverpool couldn't press as high as they normally do at Anfield and Klopp quite clearly acknowledged that in his post match interview. And one of the reasons we got thumped last season was due to not having any answers to Liverpool's high pressing tactics, where their press was even more aggressive than yesterday. And their press was more aggressive because they knew who was occupying position in goal and how limited he was on the ball. When you have a GK who is limited on the ball and then come up against a team who is coached to be aggressive in the press from the front, then your midfield won't be as effective you'd like. And the reason they won't be effective, is due to the opponent committing a high volume of players into areas occupied by the midfielders, which will then require the free man to make the difference to progress play. Sadly for us the free man was De Gea and his limitations on the ball meant we had even bigger problems playing through midfield.

So having a GK who is capable on the ball opens up possibilities that didn't previously exist and creates doubts in the opponent's mind about how aggressive they can go with their press.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. The difference is we set up more defensively and they played poorly. We didn’t keep the ball any better, slightly worse actually.

 

[Oranges038]

I’m not questioning whether it was right to move De Gea on. I’m questioning the idea Onana’s passing was the reason why we didn’t get thumped yesterday. It simply wasn’t.

Poor decision making from Liverpool players is one big reason, that and Liverpool are very one dimensional with their attacks and it's quite easy defend long shots, long balls and crosses from deep positions if you have your shape right. Which Utd did for the most part. They didn't get one clear cut chance to score.

Onana’s ability on the ball stopped them from pressing aggressively and winning the ball back in dangerous areas, where players might have been caught out of position. This negated their ability to force high turnovers and take advantage of the exposed spaces. If you watched early on they tried to press quickly, with 2 charging into the box, it didn't work. They were getting bypassed too easily and they eventually gave up on that tactic.

When that happens, it creates doubt, they press high, you ping them over the top, they drop off you ay short and bait them in. Which is why having a keeper with a good passing range is important to having the numerical superiority in the build up phase.

 

[Kostov]

You say that, but I cant remember them actually creating a good chance, and we're the only team in all competitions to stop them scoring at anfield this season. Im sorry, but ive watched football long enough to know that you take a point at anfield and move on, especially if youre in a place as poor as we are with a better XI injured or suspended than what we have. Liverpool stat padding with countless punts at goal doesnt disprove anything. Liverpool didnt get to play the way they wanted to, because we handled it. I dont know why it upsets you so much

That's classic diverting from the point attempt and it's pathetic.

Liverpool have been running of fumes all season, and scrapped to a win just a week ago, they are far from being the well oiled machine they've been the last few years. I've also watched football long enough to see that we did absolutely nothing to boast home about despite managing to not lose at Anfield. Our 4 best players was the complete back line and that tells you half of the story.

The other half story is, Antony, Hojlund and Amrabat are all multi million additions to the front 6, and Garnacho is first team option because Rashford is crap and on the bench, what injured and suspended XI are you talking about? Bruno and Casemiro? Is that the excuse for that display?

 

[Kostov]

There's no point. Poster above @Adnan has explained it several times. I can't be arsed continuing with this.

Adnan also explained how Antony was the second coming of Rivaldo the previous summer, I really don't put much weight on what he is explaining here.

 

[Oranges038]

Adnan also explained how Antony was the second coming of Rivaldo the previous summer, I really don't put much weight on what he is explaining here.

Because what's been posted in this instance makes sense.

 

[Kostov]

Because what's been posted in this instance makes sense.

Maybe to you.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

still think we need to pin at the top of this thread that Onana's performance in no way changes the fact that we needed to move on from DDG, just that we are debating whether he was the right person to bring in.
I was 100 percent joking in the beginning when i said just shouldve rolled with kovar, but to be honest at this point im not sure we would be any worse the wear for goalkeeping in that situation and couldve had extra moneys elsewhere. Wouldve been a crazy ballsy move at the time though for sure and more something you do in football manager knowing you can just reload the save after haha

 

[bond19821982]

Because what's been posted in this instance makes sense.

Laughable, isn't it ? When you arguing with data points, you bring up an old post that has nothing to do with current discussions.

That's how an agenda driven discussions go.

 

[Oranges038]

Maybe to you.

It should to anyone who has a basic understanding of how to beat a press.

Laughable, isn't it ? When you arguing with data points, you bring up an old post that has nothing to do with current discussions.

That's how an agenda driven discussions go.

It's bonkers.

I'm going to try and stay out of here. Can't be dealing with this again and again.

 

[Captmfla]

Onana finally proving why he's worth 50 million!

 

[SER19]

That's classic diverting from the point attempt and it's pathetic.

Liverpool have been running of fumes all season, and scrapped to a win just a week ago, they are far from being the well oiled machine they've been the last few years. I've also watched football long enough to see that we did absolutely nothing to boast home about despite managing to not lose at Anfield. Our 4 best players was the complete back line and that tells you half of the story.

The other half story is, Antony, Hojlund and Amrabat are all multi million additions to the front 6, and Garnacho is first team option because Rashford is crap and on the bench, what injured and suspended XI are you talking about? Bruno and Casemiro? Is that the excuse for that display?

GK...Lindelof, Maguire, Martinez, Malacia. Casemiro, Mount, Fernandes, Eriksen....Martial

So not quite 11, but if its not obviously stronger than what we fielded, its not far off. But you're upset that we set up defensively and to hit on counter. A very weird situation and game to have such a meltdown over. You know that defending is part of football too? It might not be as much fun as youtube highlights with lots of goals and tricks, but it matters and mattered yesterday. Its a point at anfield after a rotten week, with several first teamers out. Our entire midfield was second or third string. Could we have created more? Yeah, maybe. Maybe hojlund buries that chance and its called a tactical masterclass. Whether you like it or not Liverpool resorted to smacking it from long range and set pieces. We didn't get opened up once. You should learn to admire organisation and defence, its part of the game and especially part of some fixtures.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Silent domination at it again.

Liverpool didn't know what hit them.

 

[Gordon Godot]

GK...Lindelof, Maguire, Martinez, Malacia. Casemiro, Mount, Fernandes, Eriksen....Martial

So not quite 11, but if its not obviously stronger than what we fielded, its not far off. But you're upset that we set up defensively and to hit on counter. A very weird situation and game to have such a meltdown over. You know that defending is part of football too? It might not be as much fun as youtube highlights with lots of goals and tricks, but it matters and mattered yesterday. Its a point at anfield after a rotten week, with several first teamers out. Our entire midfield was second or third string. Could we have created more? Yeah, maybe. Maybe hojlund buries that chance and its called a tactical masterclass. Whether you like it or not Liverpool resorted to smacking it from long range and set pieces. We didn't get opened up once. You should learn to admire organisation and defence, its part of the game and especially part of some fixtures.

Maguire was 5th choice last season and we tried to sell in summer. Evans on current form is better. Malacia is poor. Lindelof never been good enough. Casimero legs have gone but probably better than Amrabat. Fernandes would have fallen over a lot and given the ball away a lot. Eriksen legs have gone, would rather Mainoo start. Mount would have touched the ball twice. Why do you even mention Martial. the only player who definietlay makes us better is martinez.

 

[SER19]

Maguire was 5th choice last season and we tried to sell in summer. Evans on current form is better. Malacia is poor. Lindelof never been good enough. Casimero legs have gone but probably better than Amrabat. Fernandes would have fallen over a lot and given the ball away a lot. Eriksen legs have gone, would rather Mainoo start. Mount would have touched the ball twice. Why do you even mention Martial. the only player who definietlay makes us better is martinez.

I cant take this post seriously. You cant refer to last seasons form for one player, then this seasons for another, then just predict how others would have performed. If we're even arguing that we're missing a huge number of players, including many senior ones, then i just dont see the point. Its absolutely crazy what people will argue here.

 

[Red in STL]

I’m not questioning whether it was right to move De Gea on. I’m questioning the idea Onana’s passing was the reason why we didn’t get thumped yesterday. It simply wasn’t.

Football is a team game, it was a collective effort, that's why we didn't get thumped and Onana's passing was a large part of that but not the only part