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Club Sale | It’s done!

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RyRy11

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Due to the club's size, I don't believe a full sale was ever actually viable. Because there aren't many single entities willing or able to entirely buyout United, this was always going to be the solution. Because our club is already listed on the stock exchange, the sale would have always been based on gaining majority ownership rather than just purchasing the club and delisting it. Given that the Glazers have been largely passive owners looking to profit from the club, a joint Glazer minority interest was always going to be the best choice, given their initial profit-driven motivations. Fans may not like it, but it's business; fan rage would never drive them to leave billions of dollars behind, but sound business that suited their goals would. I believe that this transaction provides a potential entry point for this, especially given that United is a PLC.

So for me, I'm very happy with Ratcliffe and Ineos coming in, as it spells a change in what our actual issues have been; the Glazer's being passive owners.

Passive owners can be good when an organization is already functioning properly.Under Fergie and Gill, this relationship worked really well because their lack of involvement allowed knowledgable footballing minds ( Fergie and Gill) have a complete hold of football operations with very little disturbance outside of availability of funds. However, when both left, and we needed active planning, strategy and activity from the Glazers, they weren't able and were unwilling to step out of that role. We hired a CEO who was as limited in football knowledge as the Glazers were, whilst also being quite passive, so we weren't able to sustain our good work in football operations. Woodward hired managers who didn't have a big picture mindset that Fergie had. Managers who were either self-serving or didn't have the knowledge or skillset to actually support him in the way Fergie did with Gill. Active owners would have spotted these issues and made immediate adjustments. A knowledgable CEO would have seen the tactical irregularities that were constantly apparent on the pitch and put pressure on these managers.

For example, LVG was able to waste six months failing tactically with the 352 and selling off half our squad in his first season. He had the complete trust and support of Woodward and never faced pressure to correct these issues, given that our on-field performances were not great. Where a manager at Real/Barca/Bayern would have been under pressure immediately when the experimental system wasn't working, LVG got the complete freedom to test this out all the way to December, with very little challenge. It's not surprising then that he didn't succeed, as he had not shown signs that he would succeed outside of a 4-week period in March 2015. More active owners and CEO's would have addressed these issues earlier and would not have entrusted him with the type of finances they did in the summer of 2015, particularly if they could spot the gaps in our tactics. We allowed him to get rid of decent players despite having little proof that he could succeed on the pitch, which left us with the weakest squad we've ever had by the end of the 2015/2016 season.

My argument here is that the Glazers' and our CEOs' passivity has given managers and players far too much leeway. This is because no one above them has the authority or football knowledge to effectively supervise proceedings They have been given free rein to do anything they want and are only restrained when their situations become utterly untenable and the team's season is in disarray. Both players and managers have lacked accountability since 2013, and this has resulted in consistently falling standards.

We have given managers much too much time at the start of their tenures, with no pressure from within the club. As a club seeking to return to the top, we must guarantee that our manager and players are driving us in that direction. For a team that hasn't had a manager do this in a long time, and given our size and financial standing, we should be more active in monitoring and checking in with managers without giving them 100% support until they prove their worth, rather than closing our eyes and giving the manager a full season automatically. Fans have the right to be forgiving and hopeful, but the club should always be meticulous in this regard, and unfortunately, that's something that has obviously not been the case in the last 10 years.

The manager at United has been determining when patterns should emerge, when a player isn't working out, and directing the resources they require to succeed. These statements are made by the manager both publicly and privately. These talks are then used by the club and the supporters to evaluate our progress as a team. With public and private briefings, interviews, and conversations, the manager is essentially authoring his own appraisal. As a result, the club has constantly echoed the manager's thoughts.When it should be the club that evaluates the team and the manager. As a result, there are no playing pattern timelines, poor squad management, and inconsistent/illogical transfer requests.

With Ratcliffe and his team taking a stake that provides them with complete control over football operations, this changes all of this. We may have a more active football operations department, with our manager in particular having people to answer to. This may not result in changes to preseason schedules or changes in branding/media, but it could lead to better squad management and on-pitch performances. Which, despite all the anger fans have displayed, is what all the anger is actually about. Fans are upset because the team has put out poor performances and results over the last ten years. Ratcliffe has essentially bought the division of the club putting out those poor performances and results and has taken full control with a promise to bring a new team and structure. This is exactly what people want.
Really good post which describes a similar thought process that I'm at with this. It remains to be seen how SJR approaches this and whether it will be successful but I struggle to see how employing people with good track records team building and recruiting, would put us is a worse position than now.

People have very valid issues with keeping the Glazers involved and not clearing the debt, but in the grand scheme of things, I want us back to challenging for titles. Renovating a stadium won't make us world beaters, its the cherry on top. If Ratcliffe can deliver a title challenging outfit, the rest will come later.
 

Winrar

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If INEOS takeover records are anything to go by, at least the first few years are gonna be rocky.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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If INEOS takeover records are anything to go by, at least the first few years are gonna be rocky.
It’s gonna be rocky regardless, but given Nice seems to be doing well finally, maybe there’s hope they’ve learned from the previous experiments. While people are rightly skeptical due to their early troubles with Lausanne and Nice, it is encouraging that they started small instead of diving head first into a major league.
 

Lemoor

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As far as I know the current debt situation is $425m at a fixed 3.79% due in 2027 and a further $225m at a low variable interest rate due in 2025, the revolving credit facility is on similar rates. Given the current levels of inflation and interest rates they're likely to have to pay much higher rates of interest to be able to refinance it. I don't think the $225m has been refinanced yet, but I may be wrong as I don't follow as closely as I used to, but the $425m at 3.79% that needs refinancing before 2027 is going to be at much higher rate next time, edging towards the PIK loan levels of the early years, and they simply couldn't afford to deal with that, the stadium, the training ground and continuing to invest in the team. It would have forced them to sell. The 18-24 month timeline is because they would have to sort out refinancing before 2027. The Ratcliffe deal gives them a lifeline of patching up the stadium so they can deal with refinancing the debt. Interest payments will increase dramatically in the next couple of years though and impact the clubs ability to invest in the team.
Sure, but they don't have to patch up the stadium or do anything about training infrastructure anyway. Those things matter only when they care about sporting standards in the club and some long-term future of it. But imo it should be evident by now that they care about it only when they can monetise it quickly. They never showed they have any issues with the club slowly rotting as long as the dip in value of the club gets offset by something else.
Investment in the team is also something that they can't really be forced into doing, if the club is in bad condition financially. The club could definitely use it, but the possibility of never getting it was something very real.

Refinancing the debt has similar issues. Even if we assume that they would be incapable of refinancing this at all, there was always a risk of them getting a minority investor in few years on conditions that would be much worse for the club.
 

Gavinb33

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It seems those who opposed the Qatar bid are now trying to convince themselves and others that this Ratcliffe deal was the only option because the Glazers would never have sold under any circumstances, but it simply isn't true. Before announcing this 'strategic review' in November '22 they spent at least 12 months trying to raise investment from other sources but failed.

There were 2 possibilities from this process, either they got the investment they were looking for or they sold the club. This deal with Ratcliffe gives them everything they could have hoped for, they got just enough investment to patch up OT and now have the financial headroom to refinance the debt. It'll mean reduced transfer budgets due to incresed interest payments and the club will fall further and further behind our rivals as they invest in new stadiums and training grounds, but at least we're not debt free with a new stadium under Qatari ownership.
If Qatar bid enough they would have sold it to them in fact if anyone enough they would have sold it, the deal now has nothing to do with fans being against a Qatar deal and every bit to do with the Glazers not getting what they wanted and thinking they can get more than that for the club in the future.
 

bosnian_red

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If INEOS takeover records are anything to go by, at least the first few years are gonna be rocky.
Given the amount of work that is needed to revamp everything, yes it will likely be rocky. Even if they have the perfect structure planned, still hiring the right people is difficult and will take time
 

croadyman

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Turkeys voting for Christmas mate.

The whole talk that this deal would come with a clear path to majority ownership went quiet the closer this got because it was never happening & now we have people saying, ‘so long as we’re successful the Glazers can stay’.

I maintain had this deal been put on the table a day after Glazers announced it would have been laughed out of town. What happened it’s a Qatar vs SjR war started in which anyone that questioned either side was told they were supporting the other.

I had some fool answer my questions on SjR with ‘is it cause you wanted Qatar’ in another thread. The way people have entrenched themselves to SjR is worrying, this is not a good deal but ‘it’s not sports washing’ which is apparently in this big old world the only other option :rolleyes:
You will never hear me say "so long as we're successful these leeches can stay" so let's get that out there straight away.

Yes I like what INEOS are looking to do in terms of structure,however I do have a horrible feeling our hopes of getting them out completely are looking very slim.
 

croadyman

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Good thing I’m only raising reservations then.

Again, if you struggle to have a debate on a forum without moaning about people ‘moaning’ then perhaps debates aren’t for you.

When we reach the point where people are championing this charade with ‘the debt has no real detrimental impact on the footballing side’ which is a cleverly worded way around saying it has no impact cause we both know it does then I think it’s best I wish you a Merry Christmas.
The debt definitely has a detrimental impact on the footballing side,I wish there had been a full sale non sportswashing option but alas not to be
 

Eyepopper

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Are you saying even with control of sporting matters he won't have any influence or you don't believe he will have control of sporting side?
What happens if/when things go to shit when he has control of sporting matters?
 

sglowrider

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What happens if/when things go to shit when he has control of sporting matters?
We start a new era of hope all over again. Yearning for new, better minority owners!!

But not before blaming the Glazers (the ol' faithful) for not wanting to sell out 100% to Jassim.
 

Castia

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If Qatar bid enough they would have sold it to them in fact if anyone enough they would have sold it, the deal now has nothing to do with fans being against a Qatar deal and every bit to do with the Glazers not getting what they wanted and thinking they can get more than that for the club in the future.
But didn’t Qatar offer pretty much the same rate Jim paid for 25%?

The TV deal and main sponsorship is already signed off, there’s no super league happening and I can’t see Jim upping his investment to the tune of 6B or whatever they estimated it at there’s no chance. All parties are happy with the deal, Glazers stay, Jim gets his slice without having to put billions of debt onto himself/INEOS
 

Champ

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You are aware our recent transfers were put on the credit card? So not sure how you figure it’s not affecting the “ football “ side.

Also I find this recent trend in breaking up the club into football vs non football categories rather concerning and naive. All the world’s top clubs are run professionally at all levels.
Nearly all our transfers are put on credit and paid for over X amount of years, would have been like that even if we were debt free.

Generally speaking United will have multiple budgets, with the main one set our for the football side of things, hence the reason it's easy to 'split' factors into football and non football, especially when it's the largest proportion of a clubs expenditure.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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That debt that's stopped us spending huge net spends yeah? That one? :lol: :lol:
Nice try. You were saying it will have no impact going forward. The debt has grown because of the huge net spends.

So let’s gets back to your nonsensical point. . .

Again, the debt has no real detrimental impact on the footballing side, it doesn't affect FFP, just as a full takeover wouldn't affect FFP.
Would Manchester United Football Club be in a better position with FFP in the coming windows, not just the immediate one, had a full takeover with investment & the debt cleared?
 

kafta

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Is there now a clear timeline for how long this should take to be cleared by the premier league? and when will the new team actually start running things?
 

AneRu

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If INEOS takeover records are anything to go by, at least the first few years are gonna be rocky.
The last ten years have been rocky, we are looking at several departures and the manager is on the ropes. I don't think there will be a problem if things get rocky but we are working in a direction that leads to improvement.
 

vanrooney

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If the athletic articles about our football structure under Murthough are accurate every change in structure can only be good. i just hope for a professional set up with a top Director of football
 

Gavinb33

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But didn’t Qatar offer pretty much the same rate Jim paid for 25%?

The TV deal and main sponsorship is already signed off, there’s no super league happening and I can’t see Jim upping his investment to the tune of 6B or whatever they estimated it at there’s no chance. All parties are happy with the deal, Glazers stay, Jim gets his slice without having to put billions of debt onto himself/INEOS
As far as I know they did but they didn't have to sell the whole club to SJR so they get to keep most of it and try and realise a sale fee akin to what they want down the line, I don't see their valuation as being a realistic at all even down the line unless they see something coming none of us do
 

Champ

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Nice try. You were saying it will have no impact going forward. The debt has grown because of the huge net spends.

So let’s gets back to your nonsensical point. . .



Would Manchester United Football Club be in a better position with FFP in the coming windows, not just the immediate one, had a full takeover with investment & the debt cleared?
It wouldn't have made a difference whether it was a full takeover or not.
Any investment wouldn't have any say on transfers nor would it have any impact on any FFP regulations.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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As far as I know they did but they didn't have to sell the whole club to SJR so they get to keep most of it and try and realise a sale fee akin to what they want down the line, I don't see their valuation as being a realistic at all even down the line unless they see something coming none of us do
We can question it but they aren’t alone in that value judgment, it’s the same one that drove the likes of Boehly to buy Chelsea (esp. at that cut price) and JP Morgan to fund the ESL, they all believe that there’s money in it yet and the major football clubs can double in value in the next decade. Is it delusional? Possibly, but it’s one reason more that full sale was never the only option, and we might well have equity investment from the likes of Elliott or Carlyle and literally no change in the way the club is run, instead of this deal.
 

devilish

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I was a pro Qatari bid. I wanted a 100% buy out and the Qatari seem to have deeper pockets which would be needed considering the mess the Glazers had caused. However that's irrelevant

a- SJR had offered the best bid which is ultimately what real matters. We fans has no say on it. The Glazers is all that matters
b- even at 69% SJR's bid was bigger then that of Jassims. Jassim expected the Glazers to pay their debt while SJR did not.
c- SJR had already played this trick on the Qataris regarding Mercedes. He bought a stake which is what the Mercedes people wanted
d- A 300m cash injection might not sound alot. However its the first cash injection United have had for decades. Neither the Glazers nor Edwards had ever invested a penny from their own pockets into the club
e- I criticized SJR's running of Nice and Lausanne and that's still relevant. However there's no denying that he seem to be tackling the United issue seriously. He took control over the sporting side which was one of the many things the Glazers neglected and which United really need to improve. If its true that the likes of Blanc, Mitchell and Ashworth are hired then we're improving big time on that regard

My biggest concern is that there's no clear route to buying the entirety of the club. These people are frigging greedy and they hate change. Which means that they will either hold control on the darn thing or else this will be a sale of a thousand cuts for Ratcliffe and INEOS as the Glazers will demand their top dollar for every share. I only hope that SJR doesn't see this as a passion project and will use his financial acumen on this deal as well. Else these guys will take him to the cleaners or we'll end up stuck in limbo. He's got far more to lose then them (ie INEOS reputation, his legacy and the 300m he pumped into the club which is probably the first of many).
 

sglowrider

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The last ten years have been rocky, we are looking at several departures and the manager is on the ropes. I don't think there will be a problem if things get rocky but we are working in a direction that leads to improvement.
Have you not noticed how quickly the fans have turned on ETH? The expectations of Ratcliffe are pretty high; many have touted his record at various clubs, potential hires, previous investments, and smart billionaire.
 

devilish

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If the athletic articles about our football structure under Murthough are accurate every change in structure can only be good. i just hope for a professional set up with a top Director of football
I was Murtough's biggest and earliest critic. I never understood how the guy with no prior experience as DOF could literally build United's football structure (the previous one was built around SAF and collapsed day 1 after he left) on the sole basis that Woodward/Joel took a liking to him. After all every single appointment these guys made (Woodward, Judge, O'Boyle) proved to be disastrous.

However Murtough is tied to the hip with the Glazers and vice versa. They hired him and they kept him here despite United's consistent underperformance. So SJR must make sure that every corner is covered and that the Glazers are relegated to silent partners.

And before someone say that ain't possible, well, I think it is and I suspect that its exactly were this is heading.

a- The Glazers aren't 1 person. They are 6 siblings in the mix with very differing views. The only thing that unites them is their lust for money. Thus if they believe that SJR can generate more money then he'll be the one stirring the ship
b- The Glazers weren't great commercially. That's the biggest myth in football. They were lucky to have bought the meanest ship at a time when a proper wave of cash was going to hit football. Actually the Glazers has mismanaged that as well. Back in the day we were the top dogs commercially. Now we're not.
c- Blanc is the Mozart/Machiavelli/Steve Jobs of football commercial side. Its the area that he shines in. Football management is actually his weakest point. Having Blanc focuses solely on the football side is like having Gordon Ramsay painting your house and as far away from the kitchen as possible.
 
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sglowrider

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I was Murtough's biggest and earliest critic. I never understood how the guy with no prior experience as DOF could literally build United's football structure (the previous one was built around SAF and collapsed day 1 after he left) on the sole basis that Woodward/Joel took a liking to him. After all every single appointment these guys made (Woodward, Judge, O'Boyle) proved to be disastrous.

However Murtough is tied to the hip with the Glazers and vice versa. They hired him and they kept him here despite United's consistent underperformance. So SJR must make sure that every corner is covered and that the Glazers are relegated to silent partners.

And before someone say that ain't possible, well, I think it is.

a- The Glazers aren't 1 person. They are 6 siblings in the mix with very differing views. The only thing that unites them is their lust for money. Thus if they believe that SJR can generate more money then them then we've got a winner
b- The Glazers weren't great commercially. They were lucky to have bought the meanest ship at a time when a proper wave of cash was going to hit football. Actually the Glazers has mismanaged that as well. Back in the day we were the top dogs commercially. Now we're not.
c- Blanc is the Mozart/Machiavelli/Steve Jobs of football commercial deals. Its the area that he shines in. Football management is actually his weakest point.
tbf its not like Murtough has had no experience in a football environment; he has had a ground-up job progression that is typical of many DOFs


https://www.transfermarkt.com/john-murtough/profil/trainer/100862
 

devilish

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tbf its not like Murtough has had no experience in a football environment; he has had a ground-up job progression.


https://www.transfermarkt.com/john-murtough/profil/trainer/100862
The sporting director role is basically at the top of the football pyramid. Considering that United's football structure was non existent at the time (SAF was our previous football structure and he retired) then having someone with zero experience in the role to build everything from scratch is asking for some serious trouble. Let's not forget the owners, what United represents (ie the biggest media spotlight is constantly on us) and the challenges United were facing at the time (ie the loss of SAF/Gill, an ageing squad etc).

Quite frankly I don't even think Murtough did the job. He relied on the manager to do most of it on his behalf and to take the blame once everything went to crap
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I was a pro Qatari bid. I wanted a 100% buy out and the Qatari seem to have deeper pockets which would be needed considering the mess the Glazers had caused. However that's irrelevant

a- SJR had offered the best bid which is ultimately what real matters. We fans has no say on it. The Glazers is all that matters
b- even at 69% SJR's bid was bigger then that of Jassims. Jassim expected the Glazers to pay their debt while SJR did not.
c- SJR had already played this trick on the Qataris regarding Mercedes. He bought a stake which is what the Mercedes people wanted
d- A 300m cash injection might not sound alot. However its the first cash injection United have had for decades. Neither the Glazers nor Edwards had ever invested a penny from their own pockets into the club
e- I criticized SJR's running of Nice and Lausanne and that's still relevant. However there's no denying that he seem to be tackling the United issue seriously. He took control over the sporting side which was one of the many things the Glazers neglected and which United really need to improve. If its true that the likes of Blanc, Mitchell and Ashworth are hired then we're improving big time on that regard

My biggest concern is that there's no clear route to buying the entirety of the club. These people are frigging greedy and they hate change. Which means that they will either hold control on the darn thing or else this will be a sale of a thousand cuts for Ratcliffe and INEOS as the Glazers will demand their top dollar for every share. I only hope that SJR doesn't see this as a passion project and will use his financial acumen on this deal as well. Else these guys will take him to the cleaners or we'll end up stuck in limbo. He's got far more to lose then them (ie INEOS reputation, his legacy and the 300m he pumped into the club which is probably the first of many).
Good post overall, very balanced from someone admitting they preferred the other bud. Would be good to see the same in the other direction.

Only issue I have with point d, is that if we set the bar at ‘better/more than the Glazers’ then anything looks significant.
 

devilish

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Nearly all our transfers are put on credit and paid for over X amount of years, would have been like that even if we were debt free.

Generally speaking United will have multiple budgets, with the main one set our for the football side of things, hence the reason it's easy to 'split' factors into football and non football, especially when it's the largest proportion of a clubs expenditure.
I have a feeling that the Glazers are set to become silent owners. The key appointment that justify my theory is Blanc. Blanc is not a football person. That's the area of expertise were he tanked at Juve. What Blanc does best is keeping costs at a manageable levels (building Allianz stadium, PSG new training facilities etc) and bringing cash into the club. He was the brains behind the PSG's partnership with Jordan brand and had Hollywood superstars adorning PSG shirts thus elevating PSG to a big player marketing wise. At Juve he was responsible to the Betclic and Balocco sponsors. That's were the man truly shines
 

devilish

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Good post overall, very balanced from someone admitting they preferred the other bud. Would be good to see the same in the other direction.

Only issue I have with point d, is that if we set the bar at ‘better/more than the Glazers’ then anything looks significant.
you're right however you need to take this into perspective. We have a MINORITY SHAREHOLDER who is pumping 300m out of his own money in a club that he own just 25% off. Neither Edwards nor the Glazers have done that and they owned the whole darn thing. As said, I was a huge critic of SJR and there are still things I am deeply concerned about. However one has to applaud that.
 

Andy_Cole

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you're right however you need to take this into perspective. We have a MINORITY SHAREHOLDER who is pumping 300m out of his own money in a club that he own just 25% off. Neither Edwards nor the Glazers have done that and they owned the whole darn thing. As said, I was a huge critic of SJR and there are still things I am deeply concerned about. However one has to applaud that.
As great as that is, I think the 300m is converted into shares. There will be a share dilution. So it’s not charity.
 

AneRu

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I have a feeling that the Glazers are set to become silent owners. The key appointment that justify my theory is Blanc. Blanc is not a football person. That's the area of expertise were he tanked at Juve. What Blanc does best is keeping costs at a manageable levels (building Allianz stadium, PSG new training facilities etc) and bringing cash into the club. He was the brains behind the PSG's partnership with Jordan brand and had Hollywood superstars adorning PSG shirts thus elevating PSG to a big player marketing wise. At Juve he was responsible to the Betclic and Balocco sponsors. That's were the man truly shines
And that's whats needed from a CEO because you can't have all of your executive team, esp the big players, all focused on football. You need someone to look after the money, be able to bring it in and ensure that it's used effectively and preferably efficiently.

Money is the most important factor in any business so I am comfortable with a money man up top and a football man as no. 2. What is needed from a CEO is the minimum football knowledge, confidence in his judgement and boldness to tell a Murtough that - I ain't dropping 80m on Antony. And you also need him to know the game well enough to identify the skills gaps in the Technical Department - to me this is where Woodward failed, he didn't identify the scouting and recruitment weaknesses in his structure and wasn't willing to empower experts to resolve these issues.
 

devilish

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As great as that is, I think the 300m is converted into shares. There will be a share dilution. So it’s not charity.
If its the case then ineos is buying more chunks of the club. If not then it's 'charity'. Irrespective it's a benefit to us (though I prefer that it's not charity)
 

cyberman

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Every transfer window for the last few years there’s been stories coming out about Joel’s indecision costing us opportunities. He’s notoriously cautious and slow to make big calls. So even if we follow an identical process (and I doubt we will) having someone more decisive with his finger on the trigger will make a huge difference.
Isn’t this just an assumption though? I went through Nice transfers from last summer there and their signings came in late July and mostly August. Year before that had nearly all of their deals done in August as well.
I don’t know where this assumption of Jim being able or willing to speed things along comes from. If anything the history of successful business men in football shows they stretch negotiations out throughout the window to cause urgency..I say history but I mean Levy. I’ll be honest
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
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Messages
61,784
And that's whats needed from a CEO because you can't have all of your executive team, esp the big players, all focused on football. You need someone to look after the money, be able to bring it in and ensure that it's used effectively and preferably efficiently.

Money is the most important factor in any business so I am comfortable with a money man up top and a football man as no. 2. What is needed from a CEO is the minimum football knowledge, confidence in his judgement and boldness to tell a Murtough that - I ain't dropping 80m on Antony. And you also need him to know the game well enough to identify the skills gaps in the Technical Department - to me this is where Woodward failed, he didn't identify the scouting and recruitment weaknesses in his structure and wasn't willing to empower experts to resolve these issues.
There are CEOs who are more football oriented like for example Marotta. Blanc is what Arnold/Woodward were supposed to be. The guy is an absolute genius in involving himself in huge infrastructure works, keep cost low and bring money into the club out of nowhere. Which is why I believe that SJR's domain will extend much further then simple football.
 

Castia

Full Member
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Jun 18, 2011
Messages
18,478
I was a pro Qatari bid. I wanted a 100% buy out and the Qatari seem to have deeper pockets which would be needed considering the mess the Glazers had caused. However that's irrelevant

a- SJR had offered the best bid which is ultimately what real matters. We fans has no say on it. The Glazers is all that matters
b- even at 69% SJR's bid was bigger then that of Jassims. Jassim expected the Glazers to pay their debt while SJR did not.
c- SJR had already played this trick on the Qataris regarding Mercedes. He bought a stake which is what the Mercedes people wanted
d- A 300m cash injection might not sound alot. However its the first cash injection United have had for decades. Neither the Glazers nor Edwards had ever invested a penny from their own pockets into the club
e- I criticized SJR's running of Nice and Lausanne and that's still relevant. However there's no denying that he seem to be tackling the United issue seriously. He took control over the sporting side which was one of the many things the Glazers neglected and which United really need to improve. If its true that the likes of Blanc, Mitchell and Ashworth are hired then we're improving big time on that regard

My biggest concern is that there's no clear route to buying the entirety of the club. These people are frigging greedy and they hate change. Which means that they will either hold control on the darn thing or else this will be a sale of a thousand cuts for Ratcliffe and INEOS as the Glazers will demand their top dollar for every share. I only hope that SJR doesn't see this as a passion project and will use his financial acumen on this deal as well. Else these guys will take him to the cleaners or we'll end up stuck in limbo. He's got far more to lose then them (ie INEOS reputation, his legacy and the 300m he pumped into the club which is probably the first of many).
Good post. I'm pretty much in the same boat but I'm beyond sceptical about Jim. Ultimately if there's no route to full ownership he's essentially a shareholder who's going to appoint a DoF....I mean it's a step in the right direction because we've been run so bad but in the grand scheme of things even half the clubs in the Championship have a DoF it's so fecking underwhelming.

A DoF and a lick of paint at OT is what we currently have until the Glazers decide to sell up which could be never.

Underwhelming isn't even the word but that's probably my own fault for thinking the Hills Have Eyes siblings actually wanted out
 

Stinkypete

Full Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2022
Messages
158
As far as I know they did but they didn't have to sell the whole club to SJR so they get to keep most of it and try and realise a sale fee akin to what they want down the line, I don't see their valuation as being a realistic at all even down the line unless they see something coming none of us do
The shares for sale were 69%, majority ownership. Ineos original offer was for that amount and was around the same offer as what Quatar were offering for 100%. Quatar never offered for just the Glazer shares, only wanted full ownership and so regardless of them muddying the water with an extra billion in infrastructure investment which the Glazers were never going to benefit from, the Quatari bid was not beating INEOS.
 

sglowrider

Thinks the caf is 'wokeish'.
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Messages
25,238
Location
Hell on Earth
The sporting director role is basically at the top of the football pyramid. Considering that United's football structure was non existent at the time (SAF was our previous football structure and he retired) then having someone with zero experience in the role to build everything from scratch is asking for some serious trouble. Let's not forget the owners, what United represents (ie the biggest media spotlight is constantly on us) and the challenges United were facing at the time (ie the loss of SAF/Gill, an ageing squad etc).

Quite frankly I don't even think Murtough did the job. He relied on the manager to do most of it on his behalf and to take the blame once everything went to crap
99.99% of us have never worked in a football organisation. I am not sure who we can judge what or who is good for any specific role.

We can whine all we want. But the reality is that we have no clue what goes on never mind what or who is required for us to gauge.

Football clubs are quite a different animal compared to most corporate roles most of us have had.
 

Fts 74

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Apr 21, 2019
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salford
Due to the club's size, I don't believe a full sale was ever actually viable. Because there aren't many single entities willing or able to entirely buyout United, this was always going to be the solution. Because our club is already listed on the stock exchange, the sale would have always been based on gaining majority ownership rather than just purchasing the club and delisting it. Given that the Glazers have been largely passive owners looking to profit from the club, a joint Glazer minority interest was always going to be the best choice, given their initial profit-driven motivations. Fans may not like it, but it's business; fan rage would never drive them to leave billions of dollars behind, but sound business that suited their goals would. I believe that this transaction provides a potential entry point for this, especially given that United is a PLC.

So for me, I'm very happy with Ratcliffe and Ineos coming in, as it spells a change in what our actual issues have been; the Glazer's being passive owners.

Passive owners can be good when an organization is already functioning properly.Under Fergie and Gill, this relationship worked really well because their lack of involvement allowed knowledgable footballing minds ( Fergie and Gill) have a complete hold of football operations with very little disturbance outside of availability of funds. However, when both left, and we needed active planning, strategy and activity from the Glazers, they weren't able and were unwilling to step out of that role. We hired a CEO who was as limited in football knowledge as the Glazers were, whilst also being quite passive, so we weren't able to sustain our good work in football operations. Woodward hired managers who didn't have a big picture mindset that Fergie had. Managers who were either self-serving or didn't have the knowledge or skillset to actually support him in the way Fergie did with Gill. Active owners would have spotted these issues and made immediate adjustments. A knowledgable CEO would have seen the tactical irregularities that were constantly apparent on the pitch and put pressure on these managers.

For example, LVG was able to waste six months failing tactically with the 352 and selling off half our squad in his first season. He had the complete trust and support of Woodward and never faced pressure to correct these issues, given that our on-field performances were not great. Where a manager at Real/Barca/Bayern would have been under pressure immediately when the experimental system wasn't working, LVG got the complete freedom to test this out all the way to December, with very little challenge. It's not surprising then that he didn't succeed, as he had not shown signs that he would succeed outside of a 4-week period in March 2015. More active owners and CEO's would have addressed these issues earlier and would not have entrusted him with the type of finances they did in the summer of 2015, particularly if they could spot the gaps in our tactics. We allowed him to get rid of decent players despite having little proof that he could succeed on the pitch, which left us with the weakest squad we've ever had by the end of the 2015/2016 season.

My argument here is that the Glazers' and our CEOs' passivity has given managers and players far too much leeway. This is because no one above them has the authority or football knowledge to effectively supervise proceedings They have been given free rein to do anything they want and are only restrained when their situations become utterly untenable and the team's season is in disarray. Both players and managers have lacked accountability since 2013, and this has resulted in consistently falling standards.

We have given managers much too much time at the start of their tenures, with no pressure from within the club. As a club seeking to return to the top, we must guarantee that our manager and players are driving us in that direction. For a team that hasn't had a manager do this in a long time, and given our size and financial standing, we should be more active in monitoring and checking in with managers without giving them 100% support until they prove their worth, rather than closing our eyes and giving the manager a full season automatically. Fans have the right to be forgiving and hopeful, but the club should always be meticulous in this regard, and unfortunately, that's something that has obviously not been the case in the last 10 years.

The manager at United has been determining when patterns should emerge, when a player isn't working out, and directing the resources they require to succeed. These statements are made by the manager both publicly and privately. These talks are then used by the club and the supporters to evaluate our progress as a team. With public and private briefings, interviews, and conversations, the manager is essentially authoring his own appraisal. As a result, the club has constantly echoed the manager's thoughts.When it should be the club that evaluates the team and the manager. As a result, there are no playing pattern timelines, poor squad management, and inconsistent/illogical transfer requests.

With Ratcliffe and his team taking a stake that provides them with complete control over football operations, this changes all of this. We may have a more active football operations department, with our manager in particular having people to answer to. This may not result in changes to preseason schedules or changes in branding/media, but it could lead to better squad management and on-pitch performances. Which, despite all the anger fans have displayed, is what all the anger is actually about. Fans are upset because the team has put out poor performances and results over the last ten years. Ratcliffe has essentially bought the division of the club putting out those poor performances and results and has taken full control with a promise to bring a new team and structure. This is exactly what people want.
Very well put.
 
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