Hopefully the new regime give him a chance and haven’t already made up their mind. He deserves a fair crack at the job with proper support.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
No point in trying to convince @el3mel . He has made up his mind .
Yes it is, because Utd were missing those players who were very experienced professionals that had high standards and have been successful. Arteta has done the same at Arsenal, brought in experience like Jorginho and William etc. Utd under SAF always had those players within the squad, but in those 10 years since they just dont exist, so they've had to be brought in.
There's almost always 3 tiers to squad structure in successful teams, older mature players (30+) who have the experience to lead the group and help maintain standards, the mid age players (24-30) who are at their peak and do most of the work in games. Then your younger players 18-24 who are being developed to take over from the upper tiers in a few years. Utd have lacked the players in the upper age brackets to guide the next group upwards. Leaving guys like Rashford, AWB, Dalot, McT etc to figure it out for themselves, it hasn't worked out well.
Hopefully building a properly structured squad can help these young guys like Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund etc develop into top players. Even Rashford should benefit over the next few years by having a proper team structure around him where he's not expected to do everything in attack.
People just aren't willing to give players a chance to settle in. Antony has been pretty gash and played relentlessly because of a real lack of options, but the rest of his signings had shown signs of promise. There will always be ups and downs while the players get used to each other on the pitch.
I think the youth players' intensity at the end made a huge difference to how high we pressed. They could barely make it to our box in the last 10 mins. It was glorious to watch.Nice to see so many youths on at the end
Please play the youngsters more, if not from the start, more at the end. Their intensity will help a lot.
"If you think the manager should be replaced, you're not a real fan and probably want us to lose"
Personally I cheered so loud that I nearly woke up my 5 year old son.
But then again I support the club and don't turn the manager into some kind of father figure.
You can support the club without putting the manager on some kind of pedestal you know.
I was ETH out at the start of the month and said the only thing that could change my mind was a good run in the December fixtures.
Our record this month is W2 D1 L4. Even if we win at Forest that is poor. He should still go at the end of the season when the Ineos chaps identify someone new.
Changing your mind or reconsidering after one games makes no sense to me. It’s a season of 50+ games of course there will be good performances and some entertaining games. The key issue is will we have enough of these and the answer is no.
Our record this month is W2 D1 L4. Even if we win at Forest that is poor. He should still go at the end of the season when the Ineos chaps identify someone new.
Changing your mind or reconsidering after one games makes no sense to me. It’s a season of 50+ games of course there will be good performances and some entertaining games. The key issue is will we have enough of these and the answer is no.
Indeed. Don't waste your time.
Yesterday was fun but doesn't change anything from the fact we have been crap since the start of the season. It doesn't change the fact we lost 8 games out of 19 league games and finished bottom of CL group with one win out of 6 games.
Don't worry about the results, seriously. I know it's a results business but I try to look past and use the following things:
How good is he at the transfer biz? Do his signings fit his vision? Yes the club needs to have a structure to support him better but he's on the committee and he's saying yes to these players / prices.
Build up patterns: Can we build up against the bottom half consistently? (yes) Can we build up against the top six consistently? (no)
Pressing: Can we execute a high press against the bottom half? (maybe) Can we execute against top six? (no)
Open play chance creation: Over a reasonably long stretch of time (ignoring temporary dips in form, injuries etc.) can we create chances at a volume expected for a top four side? (no for me)
(You can throw in rest defence, set piece attack / defence etc. but those are boring to me so I won't look at them)
For me it's transfers and chance creation: terrible, build up, pressing: a solid maybe. I'm still 50-50 on him, it's possible that finding one WC player in attack is enough to paper over other cracks.
No matter how good the comeback felt, none of this is sustainable in the long term. It was an emotive response to adversity more than a systematic approach that led to a solution. Fans tend to love the former, but it's the latter that serves as a measure of progress. Wins like yesterday should be the cherry on top of a tasty cake, not the cake itself. Getting results when playing badly is nice for the fans and shows character, but it's both physically and mentally exhausting. It's no surprise that AV's best chances in the second half came right after we had scored our first two goals respectively, when we were still high on adrenaline, trying to figure it all out again on the spur of the moment. You'd expect more a year and a half into a manager's tenure.
It's not that we became any wiser yesterday, either. United's press caused problems to AV's build-up. Our press always causes high turnovers, the difference was that we actually scored a goal from them this time. United produced some nice passages of play, with purposeful and decisive passing that led to quick transitions. We always look at our best when the opposition's tactics allow us to exploit spaces in-behind, instead of when we have to create them on our own. Eriksen added another dimension to our build-up, one that McT simply can't offer. He always does, even when people are crying out for his lack of physicality. He can drop in all three deep positions in the build-up, he can be the "receiver" in front of them, and he can also move higher up the pitch. This opens up options, allows for more rotations in the first phases of the build-up, and generates off the ball movement (if the rest are willing to do their part). He can do much for a design that demands a lot of Varane, AWB and Dalot early in the build-up, but there's not much to be done there, at least until Martinez and Casemiro get back.
Some other comments like "look, i was right, he reverted to the double pivot and gave Bruno a free role and that's why we won" are, for the most part, bollocks. Eriksen's heatmap is spread in both halves of the pitch. Just like McT's is most of the time, despite what people think. In fact, Eriksen spent more time in the attacking half. Just like he (and Fred) were doing last season. Bruno's heatmap covers the whole of the pitch. Just like it does in every game he features for us, and no matter his starting position. The difference wasn't the formation, but the personnel. Eriksen's ability on the ball drew Bruno to the left side, where we were trying to play Rashford into space. From there, we were able to hit on the counter and use Garnacho's pace to find good finishes without the risk of constantly isolating him on the right side. A similar pattern (Bruno creating overloads on the left) was often used by Solskjaer, and this "get the ball into the wide areas and hit it in-behind" is also classic later-era Mourinho. We were still shaky on both ends of the pitch. Good win, but there's still a long way to go if we want to fix this mess.
It's not that we became any wiser yesterday, either. United's press caused problems to AV's build-up. Our press always causes high turnovers, the difference was that we actually scored a goal from them this time. United produced some nice passages of play, with purposeful and decisive passing that led to quick transitions. We always look at our best when the opposition's tactics allow us to exploit spaces in-behind, instead of when we have to create them on our own. Eriksen added another dimension to our build-up, one that McT simply can't offer. He always does, even when people are crying out for his lack of physicality. He can drop in all three deep positions in the build-up, he can be the "receiver" in front of them, and he can also move higher up the pitch. This opens up options, allows for more rotations in the first phases of the build-up, and generates off the ball movement (if the rest are willing to do their part). He can do much for a design that demands a lot of Varane, AWB and Dalot early in the build-up, but there's not much to be done there, at least until Martinez and Casemiro get back.
Some other comments like "look, i was right, he reverted to the double pivot and gave Bruno a free role and that's why we won" are, for the most part, bollocks. Eriksen's heatmap is spread in both halves of the pitch. Just like McT's is most of the time, despite what people think. In fact, Eriksen spent more time in the attacking half. Just like he (and Fred) were doing last season. Bruno's heatmap covers the whole of the pitch. Just like it does in every game he features for us, and no matter his starting position. The difference wasn't the formation, but the personnel. Eriksen's ability on the ball drew Bruno to the left side, where we were trying to play Rashford into space. From there, we were able to hit on the counter and use Garnacho's pace to find good finishes without the risk of constantly isolating him on the right side. A similar pattern (Bruno creating overloads on the left) was often used by Solskjaer, and this "get the ball into the wide areas and hit it in-behind" is also classic later-era Mourinho. We were still shaky on both ends of the pitch. Good win, but there's still a long way to go if we want to fix this mess.
Last night didn’t change my mind on things and if I’m honest I think the crowd finally vocally getting on ETH’s and the players case is what changed things, there was finally very loud booing from the crowd and last night was the loudest I’ve heard the crowd in a long time which shows they’ve finally had enough too.
We weren’t the worst I’ve seen us this season last night but we’ve had so many false dawns so we need to keep the same intensity and drive, I can take losing but not trying is criminal in my opinion but that said it’s a combination of players not trying and ETH being out of his depth.
We weren’t the worst I’ve seen us this season last night but we’ve had so many false dawns so we need to keep the same intensity and drive, I can take losing but not trying is criminal in my opinion but that said it’s a combination of players not trying and ETH being out of his depth.
Good analysis and fair points. Also in another thread I was expressing disappointment we signed Mount not Maddison, who I think would be a good cover/ replacement for Eriksen, especially given how far forward Eriksen tends to get for us.
Large portions of the crowd also sing ETH's name, so I wouldn't just focus on HT boo's.
As I've said before I like him, he's probably the most tactically clued in manager we've had since SAF.
The only bad side is the terrible recruitment - he desperately needs help with that (which tbf is down to the Glazers, we've had horrible recruitment under LVG and Ole too by leaving it all to the managers).
The only bad side is the terrible recruitment - he desperately needs help with that (which tbf is down to the Glazers, we've had horrible recruitment under LVG and Ole too by leaving it all to the managers).
Any chance of Mount being back too,seems uncertainty on when he is due to return in January
As far as I remember Patrice Evra was the only man on EtHs side at halftime and many he called him “far too lenient” etc.
Seems he knew what he was on about.
Seems he knew what he was on about.
Even though Garnacho scored and he was offside I can't help but think this is one of those times he should have just slotted it back to Hojlund.
Would have been a tap in. In hindsight glad he didn't because another Hojlund disallowed goal would have been infuriating but for future times it's probably best to be less selfish there.
No he is not.
Dude didn't won ONE game away at the any of the top teams because he is tactical naive and doesn't know how to set up his team.
His style is only good in gung ho football when we have space to exploit. When team sit and give us ball we are toothless.
Great game last night, but we are still 11 points behind our biggest rivals.
The caveat is Villa are not the same away. Away form is 4-2-4, as opposed to home form of 8-1-0.
Also the players don't always play with the same intensity as the 2nd half. And then there's the worry we will revert back to McT for the next match.
AFCON is from Jan 13 to Feb 11. We have only one league game in Jan on 14th, against Spurs.
We have 3 matched from Feb 1 to 11, thats when the AFCON quarterfinals begin. So depending on how far Cameroon go ( I have no idea of their chances) onana may not miss much
I'll give him credit for managing to inspire the team to a win last night, but I can't see me changing my mind about him at this point. I've seen too many concerning things already this season.
We hired Ragnic because he is great at transfers and then fired him because he lost the dressing room and was a bad coach.
We then hired a great coach in ETH and you guys want him out because he is bad at transfers.
Makes perfect sense...
We then hired a great coach in ETH and you guys want him out because he is bad at transfers.
Makes perfect sense...
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Eriksen is actually an important cog even if his physical limitations do end up costing us. One would think Hanibal could be trained for the role but it hasnt happened because of expediency where McT was expected to be the solution to our goalscoring woes.
The other bad side for me is how quick he is latch on to a temporary solution that isn't in keeping with his philosophy and modern football like he has done with McTominay because of a few goals when he was supposed to be building a proper system. I don't mind an emergency solution to get us through a tough period in a game but to the make that player a fixture in the team is just wasting valuable time needed in team building.
This is what ten Hag was talking about when he mentioned "transitions". He was mocked by many who believed he intended for United to play like a small side who relies upon counter attacks. These clips are much closer to the truth.
I still want to believe, and second half performances like last night do help.
No one still knows what the intention is. You're also just making up stuff based on a few positive clips.
In any case, people were complaining that he's struggling to implement whatever master plan he has.
If we played like a small side that relies upon counter attacks and won, no one would complain. In fact this sort of ability would be handy when defending 2 goal leads in, say, the CL.
Amen.
The crowd lifted us last night, the players pride and Villas capitulation. I lost faith in Ten Hag after the 1st half last night and last nights result doesn't change that.
The answer is yes! Actually it’s “maybe”.
If anyone thinks EtH doesn't know what he wants to achieve, or isn't having an influence of style on this team...compare it to the state of our pressing some 2 years ago.
It's kind of baffling how we can press as well as that, or as against Chelsea and have a complete stranglehold on the game, and have other games like Newcastle away where it's like we don't even bother.
Some great work in there from Rashford as well, which hasn't always been the case, to go with one of his better games in a good while on the ball as well.
He's having some effect. Definitely not enough given he was around for a year and a half already. There's no consistency in how many times we can turn the ball over with a high press against the lesser teams (the CL run was evidence for that). If we attempt the same high press against the big sides, they have cricket scores against us so he sits in a mid to low block and counters.
ETH = Lego Arteta
I'm telling you, he's got some bollocks about him. Needs a DOF and some time. Stay the course!
What I want from ETH is simple. Start playing young players like Mainoo instead of limited players like McTominay, Antony, Lindeloft, Martial and etc. Play with 2 midfielders who can hold and pass the ball. Tell Onana to stop his stupid pass to midfielder when he is surrounded by opposing forwards and midfielders. Keep it simple and play Garnacho on the right and Rashford on the left. Just listen to the fans, I think you will be alright.
Really hope he’s learned a few lessons with squad selections. Want him to succeed so bad. There’s no one out there who could even replace him anyway. We’ve lost the chance of ever getting Klopp and Guardiola because they’ve managed our rivals. They’re probably 2 of the only managers capable of sorting this team out.
Balanced view, is it even possible?
First of all - people who call ETH "fraud" or "the worst manager we ever had", are clowns. Get offended if you want, but it's the truth. You lack any perspective and just chat shit, based on your current anger or emotional state.
Now, about him...
Pros:
- Great first season, winning a cup, getting to another cup final and finishing in top 3. Easily the best season we've had since 2013. (No, the first Mourinho season wasn't as amazing as you make it out to be.)
- Doesn't allow players to give him shit. Stands his ground.
- Some of the football we played since he is in charge, is the best we've played since 2013.
- Doesn't hesitate to give academy youngsters a chance.
- Players 100% play for him.
Cons:
- Seems way too stubborn with the way he wants to play. Refuses to change tactics for the benefit of the results, bar the Liverpool game.
- When his plan works, it's beautiful. When it doesn't, it's a complete mess. Feels like he asks the wrong players to do stuff they can't.
- Unwilling to drop Onana even after he single handedly removed us from Europe. Actually, there is another big test for his player management ability right now. Onana is going ot Afcon. Surely he should let Bayindir play against Forest and Wigan to get synced with the team? Throwing him against Spurs for a debut would be a huge mistake in my opinion.
- For the astonishing amount of money we spent ot Antony, he should have been on Salah level, or close. Unfortuantely, whilst hardworking, he is Dan James without the electric pace and with (mostly unsuccessful) step overs.
- He failed to solve many problems in our squad. This season the lack of experienced striker cost us. I firmly believe Hojlund is our future, but right now the only option is glass legged, lazy and generally shit Martial.
- Fails to realise that sometimes his choices work one time, and tries to replicate it. For example, the McTominay situation.Yes, sometimes he'll score goals, but generally he doesn't contribute to the team at all. You can instantly see that even Eriksen with dead legs makes the team 100 times better.
He made many, many mistakes, enough to get him sacked.
On the other hand, he had to deal with insane amount of injuries, with the whole club ownership saga, Ronaldo drama, Sancho drama, Greenwood drama. And he doesn't really have a working structure above him, to support him.
I've been thinking - with how this season unfolded, would any other manager have done better? I believe - absolutely not.
Newcastle get insanely overhyped, to the point that people on this forum were asking for Eddie Howe to take over United. The moment they got exactly 2 injuries, they completely collapsed.
Same thing applies to Spurs. Even to fecking City.
It's been difficult season so far, with tremendous amount of pressure.
As much as ETH annoys me sometimes, he still does many, many things right. And again - players are 100% behind him.
Very, very important to beat Forest and Wigan comfortably.
First of all - people who call ETH "fraud" or "the worst manager we ever had", are clowns. Get offended if you want, but it's the truth. You lack any perspective and just chat shit, based on your current anger or emotional state.
Now, about him...
Pros:
- Great first season, winning a cup, getting to another cup final and finishing in top 3. Easily the best season we've had since 2013. (No, the first Mourinho season wasn't as amazing as you make it out to be.)
- Doesn't allow players to give him shit. Stands his ground.
- Some of the football we played since he is in charge, is the best we've played since 2013.
- Doesn't hesitate to give academy youngsters a chance.
- Players 100% play for him.
Cons:
- Seems way too stubborn with the way he wants to play. Refuses to change tactics for the benefit of the results, bar the Liverpool game.
- When his plan works, it's beautiful. When it doesn't, it's a complete mess. Feels like he asks the wrong players to do stuff they can't.
- Unwilling to drop Onana even after he single handedly removed us from Europe. Actually, there is another big test for his player management ability right now. Onana is going ot Afcon. Surely he should let Bayindir play against Forest and Wigan to get synced with the team? Throwing him against Spurs for a debut would be a huge mistake in my opinion.
- For the astonishing amount of money we spent ot Antony, he should have been on Salah level, or close. Unfortuantely, whilst hardworking, he is Dan James without the electric pace and with (mostly unsuccessful) step overs.
- He failed to solve many problems in our squad. This season the lack of experienced striker cost us. I firmly believe Hojlund is our future, but right now the only option is glass legged, lazy and generally shit Martial.
- Fails to realise that sometimes his choices work one time, and tries to replicate it. For example, the McTominay situation.Yes, sometimes he'll score goals, but generally he doesn't contribute to the team at all. You can instantly see that even Eriksen with dead legs makes the team 100 times better.
He made many, many mistakes, enough to get him sacked.
On the other hand, he had to deal with insane amount of injuries, with the whole club ownership saga, Ronaldo drama, Sancho drama, Greenwood drama. And he doesn't really have a working structure above him, to support him.
I've been thinking - with how this season unfolded, would any other manager have done better? I believe - absolutely not.
Newcastle get insanely overhyped, to the point that people on this forum were asking for Eddie Howe to take over United. The moment they got exactly 2 injuries, they completely collapsed.
Same thing applies to Spurs. Even to fecking City.
It's been difficult season so far, with tremendous amount of pressure.
As much as ETH annoys me sometimes, he still does many, many things right. And again - players are 100% behind him.
Very, very important to beat Forest and Wigan comfortably.
Good post and I agree with most of it. He will live and die by the results on the pitch, if he can get a good run of results and football he might still have a chance but if the goals and points dry up and he keeps sticking to his guns he will rightly get the chop.