Goals scored is a statistic. Number of red cards. Number of corners. Free kicks conceded. Etc, etc. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I think the MM transfer could break his break his managerial reign.
It was probably a big error than signing Antony and in hindsight a right-sided Martínez should've been signed. Perhaps he banked on Maguire being sold.
If there was at least a stand-in for Martínez we might have fared a bit better in the first half of the season.
It was probably a big error than signing Antony and in hindsight a right-sided Martínez should've been signed. Perhaps he banked on Maguire being sold.
If there was at least a stand-in for Martínez we might have fared a bit better in the first half of the season.
This is my issue - an obvious lack of progression on the pitch and the wasted money.
The wheels came off last season to some extent after the Carabao Cup Final, but it was understandable given the lack of depth in the squad. That could have been addressed in the summer with the money available. Instead, with the exception of Hojlund who has real potential, it's all been wasted. Mount in particular I don't get. Poor injury record generally and plays in the same position as Bruno. Where was he supposed to fit in?
Whilst the footballing structure of the club has to be, and will be improved by the new regime, some on here seem to want to believe that if someone else is buying the players (because I suspect Ten Hag won't be doing it) he'll suddenly become a great coach and all will be well. I find it a problem if a manager can't identify players not good enough for the league or unable to put his own systems into practice.
Putting aside that he's obviously miles off Pep and Klopp, if someone can point out to me what he's doing that makes him any more qualified to manage United than at least half a dozen other PL managers then I'm all ears. Nobody seems to be able to tell me what I'm missing.
I certainly didn't expect us to be challenging but I expected, by now a direction of travel and a recognisable system or style of play.
You can‘t see it so it doesn‘t exist?
Careful now
I hope he brings Shaw into LCB with Varane to combat Watkins pace.
Watkins would damage Maguire.
Evans had a decent game against Watkins in the home match too so don't be surprised to see him either.
Onana
AWB Varane Shaw Dalot
Or
Onana
Dalot Varane Evans Shaw
The team that beat Villa 3.2 at home was:
Onana
AWB Varane Evans Dalot
Watkins would damage Maguire.
Evans had a decent game against Watkins in the home match too so don't be surprised to see him either.
Onana
AWB Varane Shaw Dalot
Or
Onana
Dalot Varane Evans Shaw
The team that beat Villa 3.2 at home was:
Onana
AWB Varane Evans Dalot
Kim was such a fecking layup of a signing and we fecked it by prioritizing Mount instead.
Kim, Hojlund, and an actual CM would have been 3 excellent moves that made sense squad wise. Onana I don’t blame Ten Hag as much because he was elite with Inter last season and the price we paid was fine. Thats unlucky. But Mount just didn’t fit what we need at all and we went into desperation mode to get him for not even a cheap price.
Mount was purely because he wanted to play the formation we've played for pretty much the entire season.
After watching that David Gill interview with Rio and watching our last few games, these are my takeaways and I think all of these need to be looked at when discussing the manager:
1. Need for a structure that values performance: The belief that performance on the pitch eventually brings performance off it and that pulling everyone in that direction is vital to success - A contrast to the approaches we've taken since Gill left, INEOS on the other hand seem to want performance first which is a good sign so we'll see how that develops.
2. Culture: With point 1., the club needs to shift back towards a culture that rewards performance above all else, not a player's CV before they come to United and definitely not their performance over a single season. The Youth Setup is perfect in changing culture to an extent as well, because they understand the club - That was probably a big help to Fergie in '91/'92. When you do well on the pitch, everything else goes off the radar as well - i.e. the roof still being leaky since Gill's days, players going on a night out etc. Guardiola for example doesn't get criticism for his failed signings because his team is winning.
3. Managers: SAF didn't always get it right with his signings - ETH is slated for Antony, Mount, Onana etc. (Mount and Onana I think still deserves a bit more of a chance, we've seen enough of Antony to know he's not going to work out) but he's got it right with quite a few as well, especially with introducing Rasmus, Garna and Mainoo to the team. Out of the permanent signings, he's had some level of success with Casemiro, Eriksen, Malacia and Lisandro. SAF also took a while to get going at United, you see the same with Artetta now and the quality of football they play. SAF's record when he took over at United for example:
1986/87 - 11th (21st in previous season)
1987/88 - 2nd
1988/89 - 11th
1989/90 - 13th (FA Cup)
1990/91 - 6th (European Cup Winners Cup)
1991/92 - Close 2nd (League Cup + Super Cup)
1992/93 - League Champions, and the rest... is history.
4. Style of play: I see a style of play when we have our first team (Which still needs a new RCB, a younger CDM and RB imo), but I think it will take time to see it consistently as we build up our second 11. Decent build up from the back, pressing from the top, recycling possession well, overlapping fullbacks, working through the low block teams a bit better than under Ole, good hold up play, decent off the ball movement. What is lacking for me: Bad at taking/defending set pieces, lack of leadership across the board, pace/urgency of buildup too slow, lack of traditional wing-play, some starters not fit enough for a high energy gameplan (Casemiro, Varane), bad subs (some down to ETH, some down to the fact that our second team is levels below the first).
There's a lot we can learn from the past, chief among them being that good things take time, and that success is never linear.
1. Need for a structure that values performance: The belief that performance on the pitch eventually brings performance off it and that pulling everyone in that direction is vital to success - A contrast to the approaches we've taken since Gill left, INEOS on the other hand seem to want performance first which is a good sign so we'll see how that develops.
2. Culture: With point 1., the club needs to shift back towards a culture that rewards performance above all else, not a player's CV before they come to United and definitely not their performance over a single season. The Youth Setup is perfect in changing culture to an extent as well, because they understand the club - That was probably a big help to Fergie in '91/'92. When you do well on the pitch, everything else goes off the radar as well - i.e. the roof still being leaky since Gill's days, players going on a night out etc. Guardiola for example doesn't get criticism for his failed signings because his team is winning.
3. Managers: SAF didn't always get it right with his signings - ETH is slated for Antony, Mount, Onana etc. (Mount and Onana I think still deserves a bit more of a chance, we've seen enough of Antony to know he's not going to work out) but he's got it right with quite a few as well, especially with introducing Rasmus, Garna and Mainoo to the team. Out of the permanent signings, he's had some level of success with Casemiro, Eriksen, Malacia and Lisandro. SAF also took a while to get going at United, you see the same with Artetta now and the quality of football they play. SAF's record when he took over at United for example:
1986/87 - 11th (21st in previous season)
1987/88 - 2nd
1988/89 - 11th
1989/90 - 13th (FA Cup)
1990/91 - 6th (European Cup Winners Cup)
1991/92 - Close 2nd (League Cup + Super Cup)
1992/93 - League Champions, and the rest... is history.
4. Style of play: I see a style of play when we have our first team (Which still needs a new RCB, a younger CDM and RB imo), but I think it will take time to see it consistently as we build up our second 11. Decent build up from the back, pressing from the top, recycling possession well, overlapping fullbacks, working through the low block teams a bit better than under Ole, good hold up play, decent off the ball movement. What is lacking for me: Bad at taking/defending set pieces, lack of leadership across the board, pace/urgency of buildup too slow, lack of traditional wing-play, some starters not fit enough for a high energy gameplan (Casemiro, Varane), bad subs (some down to ETH, some down to the fact that our second team is levels below the first).
There's a lot we can learn from the past, chief among them being that good things take time, and that success is never linear.
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After the SAF era, many Manchester United fans believe the club is entitled to success. They have hard time coping with the fact, that it's been downhill for more than 10 years and climbing back up is not easy task.
There will be mistakes, there will be difficulties.
Again - giving Ange and De Zebri as examples for turning playstyles around is not relevant. Nobody cares about Brighton and Spurs. The job there is at least 10 levels easier.
At United the whole world is watching you and your players.
Arteta gets a pass at Arsenal for very average job he's done so far, because he's young, he's media darling and sometimes they play quick and entertaining football.
Chelsea spent 3 times more money than us and yet nobody is at Pochetino's back for being closer to relegation zone, than to top 6.
The biggest mistake is we never gave the proper manager a chance. Moyes was a mistake and everyone knew it. This one is on SAF, honestly.
LVG was too old and his style was outdated. Jose has a whole career proving he's only good for 2 seasons. We gave Ole a proper chance, but he made one costly mistake - bringing Ronaldo back in a team that needed anything but Ronaldo.
Erik ten Hag is the first manager that actually set a direction and moves the team towards it. He made mistakes and in both his first season, and now his second, we have great and awful moments.
Under ETH reign we've scored the most beautiful team goals I've seen us score in the past 10 years and we have some amazing playing patterns. Also we've had some of the worst defending and defensive organisation I've seen in the past 10 years.
During the really bad 2 months we had this season, ETH said he needs his injured players. The recent performances prove he was right.
The only transfer issue I personally have is Antony.
Klopp's first 3 seasons looked very similar to ours under ETH.
Pep with the unlimited funds available started slow at City aswell.
If the season ends in disaster, ETH will be sacked. I certainly hope we continue improving and he keeps his job. Because I can guarantee you, for the next manager, that it takes exactly 5 unconvincing performances to start the "he's a fraud", "get him out of the club", "worst manager we've had" train rolling. And I have a feeling ETH still has a lot up his sleeve. Let' see what happens.
There will be mistakes, there will be difficulties.
Again - giving Ange and De Zebri as examples for turning playstyles around is not relevant. Nobody cares about Brighton and Spurs. The job there is at least 10 levels easier.
At United the whole world is watching you and your players.
Arteta gets a pass at Arsenal for very average job he's done so far, because he's young, he's media darling and sometimes they play quick and entertaining football.
Chelsea spent 3 times more money than us and yet nobody is at Pochetino's back for being closer to relegation zone, than to top 6.
The biggest mistake is we never gave the proper manager a chance. Moyes was a mistake and everyone knew it. This one is on SAF, honestly.
LVG was too old and his style was outdated. Jose has a whole career proving he's only good for 2 seasons. We gave Ole a proper chance, but he made one costly mistake - bringing Ronaldo back in a team that needed anything but Ronaldo.
Erik ten Hag is the first manager that actually set a direction and moves the team towards it. He made mistakes and in both his first season, and now his second, we have great and awful moments.
Under ETH reign we've scored the most beautiful team goals I've seen us score in the past 10 years and we have some amazing playing patterns. Also we've had some of the worst defending and defensive organisation I've seen in the past 10 years.
During the really bad 2 months we had this season, ETH said he needs his injured players. The recent performances prove he was right.
The only transfer issue I personally have is Antony.
Klopp's first 3 seasons looked very similar to ours under ETH.
Pep with the unlimited funds available started slow at City aswell.
If the season ends in disaster, ETH will be sacked. I certainly hope we continue improving and he keeps his job. Because I can guarantee you, for the next manager, that it takes exactly 5 unconvincing performances to start the "he's a fraud", "get him out of the club", "worst manager we've had" train rolling. And I have a feeling ETH still has a lot up his sleeve. Let' see what happens.
Madness.
I agree with some of this post but not others. I am not sure about entitled, but we have allowed standards to fall WAY TOO LOW. RM fans would not have tolerated much of the dross we have seen, terrible appointments, terrible signings, and terrible football for long periods. You are correct that a lot of the managerial appointments were terrible, so this whole we cant keep sacking managers thing is rubbish. We failed to land the more obvious targets, Klopp would have brought success but Woodward pitched some Disney land rubbish.
I also agree that ETH was a sensible appointment, but also came with questions, after all the might Spurs turned him down. His success only came in the Dutch league and that is really a terrible league. We have objectively seen nothing from him over last 18 months in terms of 'direction'. Our style seems to mean a total lack of control and inability to manage games. He seems to be only want to be judged when he has first 11 on the pitch. You may hope he succeeds but lets be honest that is all it is. As for 'recent performances'. we beat a mid table Wolves and WH at home. Its unbelievable how you accept the bare minimum. We still give away lots of chances, look open through the middle and cant defend corners.
I also strongly disagree with the like of Spurs being irrelevant. They are good club with plenty of pressure. But it shows above all a manager with clear beliefs can instill them in a team within months and have them playing good football. It doesnt make Ange the best manager but its childish to dismiss what he has achieved. It also kills the myth that ETH just needs time, another £400m and no injuries to show something. I dont care if we never win another trophy but being a Manchester United manager is above all else about exciting football. Without that we are really finished.
Except the bit where they got to a CL final in his second full season and won it the next year in his third full season. Or where they got 97 points in his third full season (also finishing in top 4 in the previous two).
Amazing how people have really convinced themselves that Klopp struggled as much as ETH.
I’m neither in nor out to be fair, he had a good first season but has made mistakes this year and seems to really be struggling to make us able to control games.
Injuries have been a nightmare for him, no question there so I’ve been desperately waiting to see him end the season with a full squad available before judging.
But feck me, please stop with the “good things take time because they did for SAF”.
Moyes wouldn’t have been the next SAF if given time, nor would LVG, Mou nor Ole.
SAF came into a completely different club, and spent (even adjusted with inflation) nothing like the mouth watering sums Ole, LVG, Jose & ETH did.
The concept that any manager will turn out world class if they are given a lot of time is frankly one of the most ridiculous ones I have seen, and we are the only fan base that I have ever encountered that believes this so casually. I know it's because we actually experienced SAF turning things around despite initial struggles, but we can't keep living off of that forever.
This forum is mad. Not sure if these people are real fans? The attempt to excuse ETH for the terrible performances and signings. He spent far less than ETH in his first 18 months as well. Maybe he will turn things around, but beating Wolves away and WH at home is the bare minimum. INEOS crew are also going to need to work hard to dig us out of the hole his awful signings have left us in financially
The same silly argument was made for Ole too. It’s just foolishness to be honest.
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Lose to villa and it's doom and gloom again
I have to point out to you that you are wrong about what a statistic is. The number of goals scored is a factual data point and not a statistic. Same for actual numbers of anything like red cards, yellow cards etc. Statistics are when you attempt to calculate a representative or predictive model from a dataset that 'represents' a target population. This is one of the first things I have to teach psychology students who are undertaking my stats module. Statistical models can and do include subjective data (again, whether you think this feels 'right' to you or not is irrelevant, it's what happens in actual science).
e.g. The number of goals Garnacho has scored is just a data point. However, his average number of goals per game is a statistical model that represents his goal scoring performance across a time period. You would also want the standard deviation too for a more complete picture.
Similarly, number of passes attempted is not a stat, but average number of passes across ten matches is a stat.
He’ll blame it on Licha’s injury.
I'm all for ETH getting stick, he's made some dodgy tactical decisions and subs this year.
HOWEVER if you ever wanted to see what a media narrative looks like, take village idiot Chris Sutton:
14th Jan: Jim Ratcliffe needs to sack Erik ten Hag NOW
5th Feb:Chelsea must be patient with Pochettino
HOWEVER if you ever wanted to see what a media narrative looks like, take village idiot Chris Sutton:
14th Jan: Jim Ratcliffe needs to sack Erik ten Hag NOW
5th Feb:Chelsea must be patient with Pochettino
With current 'mini-revival' I am more than happy to wait until the end of season, if the team can make progress then he deserves another shot next year but let's not pretend managers are immune to criticism or need to be given 3-5 years before we can reasonably assess their impact.
I still think he is not good enough for where we should aspire to be (which is to challenge for top trophies), however he could very well prove me wrong and I'd be over the moon with that (contrary to the belief that I'm actively rooting against us). It's also entirely possible that he will turn out not good enough for the very top level, but perfectly sufficient to progress us through the next 2-3 years while we prepare for proper title/CL challenge coming up then, with a different manager in charge at that point.
This is silly. Pochettino should be under just as much pressure as ETH and arguably even more. Whatever credit he may have had for his Spurs reign should be long gone by now.
The hounds jumped on me again.
Down boys, stop getting offended on Klopp's behalf.
He finished 8th then two times 4th, then 2nd before winning the league.
ETH finished 3rd in his first season, might yet finish in top 4 again.
Season is there to be saved.
I don't understand why the thought of ETH succeeding bothers you so much.
Down boys, stop getting offended on Klopp's behalf.
He finished 8th then two times 4th, then 2nd before winning the league.
ETH finished 3rd in his first season, might yet finish in top 4 again.
Season is there to be saved.
I don't understand why the thought of ETH succeeding bothers you so much.
There's an element of Sutton with shit opinion shocker, but it's symptomatic of the overall media narrative around United.
Pochettino and Chelsea in general should be getting fecking hounded for their utter clusterfeck since sacking Tuchel. It's a total shit show, especially when coupled with the fact they've bought clubs like Strasbourg that are now collateral damage.
ETH should be under scrutiny, but nowhere near to the extent he has been.
Win away to Villa so I know its real.
Our current hierarchy are a bunch of morons. Why on earth would you brief the press like this on the back of 2 decent results (one which was salvaged in the final seconds of the game) against mid table clubs?
Or the players have seen rumours that Mourinho wants to return so thought forget that, we’ll start playing to save ETH.
Murtough doing Murtough things.
I think some of us are getting carried away follwing victories against Newport County, Wolves and West Ham.
ETH has shown his colours, in managing players, setting up a team (????? still searching...), and his work in the transfer market. I see nothing in him to change my opinion and I think, sincerely hope, that Man Utd can do better. Look where we are in the league, battling to be in the top six! Think about that. That is not impressive for a Manchester United manager.
Teams improved from last season (Spurs, Liverpool, Villa..) and we haven't managed to keep up. We cannot beat the top sides, domestically, and the CL was a joke, and embarrassing campaign. You cannot rely on having all your players fit.. that's a misguided rather silly expectation of management. Look at how the teams above us have dealt with injuries, and have built and developed a resilient squad. ETH has spent £400m to bring in 16 different players.
And aside from that, as many have previously stated, we still have no recognisable identity or method to our play. And that is a joke, sorry. At the moment, his players of the season are Garnacho, and er.. not quite sure who else. And that tells you a lot.
If you consider all this a success then that's fine, but you can forget us winning anything, I include Cups too. Too many other teams are just more consistently better than we are.
Desperate for good pr.
So that they can say "Well Martinez is out and we all saw how good this team can be with all it's players, he deserves time" when it inevitably goes tits up again.
They are setting it up to argue that a single injury to this squad is enough to excuse results - they probably plan to keep Ten Hag until the summer and want to avoid unnecessary media speculation.
It's what we've done for a decade, exact same pattern. Win against Villa and we'll probably have a player interview saying we're back.
I don't think it's any real reflection on how the club assess the manager its just PR spin.
So I agree with your first paragraph, I think I'm in that same camp. I'm not saying the 'good things take time' argument should be used to keep Ten Hag here specifically, I think any manager requires time. Given the positives that I have seen with ETH I would like to wait till the end of the season where I hope he can manage at least 5th, but no excuses going into his third season (Where the club can sack him even a few games into the season after sounding out a few managers like Enrique, or Nagelsmann in the summer) - He's levels above Moyes for me, and he's above Ole in that we saw a more controlled style of play last season. He's not above Mou and LVG for sure because of those managers' pedigrees, but we specifically wanted a manager that was up and coming that would work with youth, would play an attractive style of football and was looking for a long term project - ETH was the best pick at that time, certainly over Pochettino who is having a worse season at Chelsea with more money spent.
I don't think there is a large enough pool of historically great or currently high-performing managers to pick from at the end of this summer either - Ange while he's having a good season with Spurs is still unproven for me personally and I'd rather make my conclusions after his second season, Emery is having a great season with Villa but didn't find success with Arsenal so we'll have to wait and see what his Villa side do next season. Xabi Alonso is doing well of course, but again not proven enough - He could go to Liverpool and still do well there, but he will do well there mainly because of the legacy that Klopp and FSG have built over 9 years, in addition to his coaching prowess (He could still flop there of course). Ancelotti is taken up with Madrid, and Zidane is not interested in United, Tuchel taken up with Bayern. Enrique maybe is an option, but might not be interested. I just don't see many managers improving this team in the short term (Personally don't see any bar Klopp or Guardiola from the current Prem batch).
Without injuries, we are about 3 starters and at least 4-5 squad options off from getting close to City, Liverpool and Arsenal currently. We should've been 4th this season comfortably, but it is also no surprise (while disappointing) that we are 6th when mostly playing with sub-par squad players who themselves have needed replacing for some time.
Without having to be an ETH fanboy, I think ETH will have his pick of clubs (Not quite the RMs and Barca's right away but very good clubs) even if he gets sacked at United. I just worry for United who will be left neither better nor worse off with the next big up and coming manager, if that is the only change we will see at the club.
P.S. - Why is it that I can't post the name "Alonso" without it being it being referred to Fernando?
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Oh I agree, ETH has much more pedigree and will find it much easier to attract a new club if/once he leaves here.So I agree with your first paragraph, I think I'm in that same camp. I'm not saying the 'good things take time' argument should be used to keep Ten Hag here specifically, I think any manager requires time. Given the positives that I have seen with ETH I would like to wait till the end of the season where I hope he can manage at least 5th, but no excuses going into his third season (Where the club can sack him even a few games into the season after sounding out a few managers like Enrique, or Nagelsmann in the summer) - He's levels above Moyes for me, and he's above Ole in that we saw a more controlled style of play last season. He's not above Mou and LVG for sure because of those managers' pedigrees, but we specifically wanted a manager that was up and coming that would work with youth, would play an attractive style of football and was looking for a long term project - ETH was the best pick at that time, certainly over Pochettino who is having a worse season at Chelsea with more money spent.
I don't think there is a large enough pool of historically great or currently high-performing managers to pick from at the end of this summer either - Ange while he's having a good season with Spurs is still unproven for me personally and I'd rather make my conclusions after his second season, Emery is having a great season with Villa but didn't find success with Arsenal so we'll have to wait and see what his Villa side do next season. Xabi [Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1] is doing well of course, but again not proven enough - He could go to Liverpool and still do well there, but he will do well there mainly because of the legacy that Klopp and FSG have built over 9 years, in addition to his coaching prowess (He could still flop there of course). Ancelotti is taken up with Madrid, and Zidane is not interested in United, Tuchel taken up with Bayern. Enrique maybe is an option, but might not be interested. I just don't see many managers improving this team in the short term (Personally don't see any bar Klopp or Guardiola from the current Prem batch).
Without injuries, we are about 3 starters and at least 4-5 squad options off from getting close to City, Liverpool and Arsenal currently. We should've been 4th this season comfortably, but it is also no surprise (while disappointing) that we are 6th when mostly playing with sub-par squad players who themselves have needed replacing for some time.
Without having to be an ETH fanboy, I think ETH will have his pick of clubs (Not quite the RMs and Barca's right away but very good clubs) even if he gets sacked at United. I just worry for United who will be left neither better nor worse off with the next big up and coming manager, if that is the only change we will see at the club.
P.S. - Why is it that I can't post the name "[Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1]" without it being it being referred to Fernando?
The thing is:
Ole was sacked on 1.41 pts /game for the season he got fired, it was absolutely horrendous. Even Moyes did better than that.
EtH is currently on a crap enough 1.65 pts /game this season, yet a tonne of the same posters that backed Ole to the very end believe ETH deserves the sack despite massively outperforming a man they wanted to get more time. Tis odd.
With players back I fully expect ETH will likely beat Ole’s 2nd best PL points tally even in this shit season, that’s just how bad a manager Ole was for this club.
ETH isn’t currently performing poorly enough for the sack, with the injuries he’s had he’s absolutely doing enough to see out the season.
What happens then though will likely boil down to just how much we can improve with players back between now & the Summer.
If he shows enough and gets backed by INEOS, as you say, much higher standards would be expected of him next season.
If he doesn’t show enough between now and May, the new INEOS guys will surely replace him.
That is a very good point and also the reason why I don't want want ETH here next season. He has not shown any good ideas in his time here, and our peak time we just played "pragmatic" football. And the thing is, even ignoring his "transfers" (apart from Antony I don't think it's been very bad, "the Mount fiasco" is more about how ETH got it wrong rather than MM being a bad player), I just don't think he has the right ideas to move us forward. We are playing worse than I would expect this bunch of players COULD perform. So, even if we give the power over transfers to somebody else, it seems very likely ETH will keep pushing for his idea of "single #6 and double #10" setup, because this is what we've been doing all season basically.
Except in the last few matches, where it seemed to be more of a double #6 again. Which means reverting to what worked last season. Which was basically the same system Ole usually used, and which he reverted to after early failures in his first season as well. So far it just feels like he fails to really add tactical ideas to the team, except small details. But the back changes he tried all seem to have backfired.
And that's the point. That's eight players short. Almost a whole team. Liverpool have changed their squad whilst we have watched. And that's just to as you state, get 'close'.So I agree with your first paragraph, I think I'm in that same camp. I'm not saying the 'good things take time' argument should be used to keep Ten Hag here specifically, I think any manager requires time. Given the positives that I have seen with ETH I would like to wait till the end of the season where I hope he can manage at least 5th, but no excuses going into his third season (Where the club can sack him even a few games into the season after sounding out a few managers like Enrique, or Nagelsmann in the summer) - He's levels above Moyes for me, and he's above Ole in that we saw a more controlled style of play last season. He's not above Mou and LVG for sure because of those managers' pedigrees, but we specifically wanted a manager that was up and coming that would work with youth, would play an attractive style of football and was looking for a long term project - ETH was the best pick at that time, certainly over Pochettino who is having a worse season at Chelsea with more money spent.
I don't think there is a large enough pool of historically great or currently high-performing managers to pick from at the end of this summer either - Ange while he's having a good season with Spurs is still unproven for me personally and I'd rather make my conclusions after his second season, Emery is having a great season with Villa but didn't find success with Arsenal so we'll have to wait and see what his Villa side do next season. Xabi [Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1] is doing well of course, but again not proven enough - He could go to Liverpool and still do well there, but he will do well there mainly because of the legacy that Klopp and FSG have built over 9 years, in addition to his coaching prowess (He could still flop there of course). Ancelotti is taken up with Madrid, and Zidane is not interested in United, Tuchel taken up with Bayern. Enrique maybe is an option, but might not be interested. I just don't see many managers improving this team in the short term (Personally don't see any bar Klopp or Guardiola from the current Prem batch).
Without injuries, we are about 3 starters and at least 4-5 squad options off from getting close to City, Liverpool and Arsenal currently. We should've been 4th this season comfortably, but it is also no surprise (while disappointing) that we are 6th when mostly playing with sub-par squad players who themselves have needed replacing for some time.
Without having to be an ETH fanboy, I think ETH will have his pick of clubs (Not quite the RMs and Barca's right away but very good clubs) even if he gets sacked at United. I just worry for United who will be left neither better nor worse off with the next big up and coming manager, if that is the only change we will see at the club.
P.S. - Why is it that I can't post the name "[Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1]" without it being it being referred to Fernando?