Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

He's getting below par performances from a mediocre group of players. He does at least appear to be aware that he's getting things wrong, but he doesn't seem to know how to adjust to the players he has. I do think we should allow him the summer and pre-season to get things more to his vision, but I am unconvinced that he will be able to based on how much player turnover looks to be needed to suit what he wants.
 
People are overreacting to a loss in a throw away game vs a good team with a manager in the hospital and needing wins for top four. We played a so so first half despite that and a heavy rotation of players. Second half we gave them several goals due to slips and bad defense + a keeper error. Not ideal but we move on til Thursday.
 
bgoodall said:
People are overreacting to a loss in a throw away game vs a good team with a manager in the hospital and needing wins for top four. We played a so so first half despite that and a heavy rotation of players. Second half we gave them several goals due to slips and bad defense + a keeper error. Not ideal but we move on til Thursday.
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Agreed
 
Posh Red said:
Because he has been extensively criticised both in the media and even on this very forum by very large sections of the fan base?
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By the media maybe, but not this forum, a lot of posters trust INEOS. Raoul mentioned Ratcliffe being all in on Amorim, I think INEOS have been awful so far, and Ratcliffe being all in on Amorim could easily be one more of many mistakes he has made so far.
 
bgoodall said:
People are overreacting to a loss in a throw away game vs a good team with a manager in the hospital and needing wins for top four. We played a so so first half despite that and a heavy rotation of players. Second half we gave them several goals due to slips and bad defense + a keeper error. Not ideal but we move on til Thursday.
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I would agree. I feel both our results and performances have been a lot better in the last couple of months, and this is without having a functioning striker and missing Amad.
 
bgoodall said:
People are overreacting to a loss in a throw away game vs a good team with a manager in the hospital and needing wins for top four. We played a so so first half despite that and a heavy rotation of players. Second half we gave them several goals due to slips and bad defense + a keeper error. Not ideal but we move on til Thursday.
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Agreed.
 
How the hell is three points off 17th place with the season almost over anything close to acceptable? He would need to work wonders in the Europa League.
 
Ali Dia said:
What do ye reckon? We are aiming for top 6 next season with a few good signings and luck with injuries to key players? Top 4 if it clicks? Decent chance it won't click to the extent we need whoever we sign? Will top 6 keep him his job?
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All the teams above us will get better to, we need not to just get better we need to get a lot better there is a lot of ground to make up and these teams are not going to stand by and watch us make up the ground, we need a lot better profile of player than the likes of Dorgu to make up the ground on the rest and if I was a player United wouldn't be in my top 6 clubs to sign for in the PL
 
Ali Dia said:
What do ye reckon? We are aiming for top 6 next season with a few good signings and luck with injuries to key players? Top 4 if it clicks? Decent chance it won't click to the extent we need whoever we sign? Will top 6 keep him his job?
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You never place limits of where you aim. In recent years we’ve seen Leicester finish 17th and win the league the following year, Chelsea finish 10th and then win the league the following year and now Forest finish 17th and currently in 3rd.

Clubs can and do reverse their fortunes very quickly sometimes. A good start to next season might be all it takes to build some confidence and then you are away and running.

Regardless of league position it would be hard for us to replicate the ineptness of the finishing and individual errors next season. Our set piece defending has improved from calamitous to acceptable. Literally a less shambolic goalkeeper and one goalscoring forward would make a big difference.

Meanwhile, we seemed to deliberately hamstring ourselves with the January loans of Rashford and Antony. That lack of squad depth in the forward areas has been clear and will surely be addressed come the summer.

I think given how poor our finishing position will be there will naturally be low expectations next season. If we aren’t at least in the mix for the top 6 then pressure will grow. A Europa League win naturally buys some time though.
 
sparx99 said:
You never place limits of where you aim. In recent years we’ve seen Leicester finish 17th and win the league the following year, Chelsea finish 10th and then win the league the following year and now Forest finish 17th and currently in 3rd.

Clubs can and do reverse their fortunes very quickly sometimes. A good start to next season might be all it takes to build some confidence and then you are away and running.

Regardless of league position it would be hard for us to replicate the ineptness of the finishing and individual errors next season. Our set piece defending has improved from calamitous to acceptable. Literally a less shambolic goalkeeper and one goalscoring forward would make a big difference.

Meanwhile, we seemed to deliberately hamstring ourselves with the January loans of Rashford and Antony. That lack of squad depth in the forward areas has been clear and will surely be addressed come the summer.

I think given how poor our finishing position will be there will naturally be low expectations next season. If we aren’t at least in the mix for the top 6 then pressure will grow. A Europa League win naturally buys some time though.
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Spot on. There aren’t any limits of how high we can finish if we make the right moves this summer.
 
Andy_Cole said:
Less points than Hodgson at his season at Liverpool
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Two league wins in two months is the only stat you need to know he's been atrocious. We are also the second worst team in the league for losing the ball in our half.
 
Blood Mage said:
Two league wins in two months is the only stat you need to know he's been atrocious. We are also the second worst team in the league for losing the ball in our half.
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The league has been evolving and the level of competence is way higher now. Previous mid table and lower table teams are now competing for top 6 or at least doing better than united and spurs who are now stuck at the bottom end.
It’s easy to sit at home and ask a manager to change things up and take more risks or be more adventurous to chase wins but we don’t have the personnel to be more entertaining.
Since we can’t change the squad, the next thing we could do is change formations and play more men up front but we really don’t have the players in midfield who we can trust to lock it down in the middle of the park. Some may say and have said that Ruben is limited in his knowledge of the game and tactics but I think he has rightly been stiff with his decision to not change formations and keep things compact.
Our current situation may be the worst by us fans’ standards but if it weren’t for damage control, things could actually be much worse.
Sometimes you have to be pragmatic due to your limitations instead of being all rockstar like EtH for instance.
I’m really curious, if you were the manager in the current situation, what would you do to make things to be less atrocious?
 
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.

But I give you David Moyes at Everton.

and I just read this

Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.

It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.

If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
 
MF1138 said:
He's getting below par performances from a mediocre group of players. He does at least appear to be aware that he's getting things wrong, but he doesn't seem to know how to adjust to the players he has. I do think we should allow him the summer and pre-season to get things more to his vision, but I am unconvinced that he will be able to based on how much player turnover looks to be needed to suit what he wants.
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He's struggling because he's inexperienced in management. Neither he nor his coaching staff have been in enough different situations to know how to handle this.
 
roseguy64 said:
He's struggling because he's inexperienced in management. Neither he nor his coaching staff have been in enough different situations to know how to handle this.
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That is very inaccurate.
A squad as poor as ours will not help any manager or coach prove their acumen to be good enough or not, on a consistent basis.
And how do you describe ‘different situations’?
I think he has managed to get decent results against top managers in certain situations.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The point is this team struggled badly in the system since Solkjaers demise. Its never been remotely consistently good enough even up to ETH sacking since. Hence the desire to ditch 3-4-3 so quickly is quite baffling. Up there with moaning about being having self autonomy in a wilderness and desiring to be a decade plusSlave again back in Egypt......
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It's not baffling when you see that this current shit team isn't suited for it. I have no fecking idea about the part in bold.
There is being bad and there is being what we currently are. What was the point in appointing Amorim if there wasn't an expectation that things would improve ?

Stig said:
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.

But I give you David Moyes at Everton.

and I just read this

Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.

It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.

If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
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I have no doub he's given carte blanche. It's the only sensible explanation.
 
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kouroux said:
What was the point in appointing Amorim if there wasn't an expectation that things would improve ?
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In theory it is to start implementing the system as soon as possible, trading immediate results for speeding up the process, and not wasting time on a temporary strategy. However, people have also defended the results by claiming that he doesn't have enough time to train the players, due to how often United play. If that's true then it's unclear how useful it is to start in less-than-ideal conditions.
 
Red Company said:
That is very inaccurate.
A squad as poor as ours will not help any manager or coach prove their acumen to be good enough or not, on a consistent basis.
And how do you describe ‘different situations’?
I think he has managed to get decent results against top managers in certain situations.
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Meaning that the reason Moyes and Pereira have managed to turn around Wolves and Everton is because of their experience in multiple different situations at different clubs. Relegation battling and otherwise.
 
next_number_seven said:
If he was an unsexy British manager, we'd all be calling for his head.
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Bluh-deh furriners ar tooo sex-eh
Andy_Cole said:
Less points than Hodgson at his season at Liverpool
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Hodgson had Gerrard in midfield and Luis Suarez up front.

Who the hell do we have? Bruno, maybe, a past it Case and Hojlund.

Keep things in perspective rather than torture ourselves with such comparisons.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
You will recruit wingbacks and No 10s who are not great fit for a 4231. CBs, CMs, strikers are less affected.

Few teams play wingbacks hence there are very few of them. It is plain statistics that the 4231 player pool is the biggest. Of course we then go down the 3421 path for which I have never heard a solid explanation other than it worked for Amorim at Sporting and that we have to do this because ETH couldn't get 4231 to work. Bad bad risk reward.
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But can you name any of these players who are specifically wingbacks and can't play as a fullback or winger?
 
MaxZorin said:
Bluh-deh furriners ar tooo sex-eh


Hodgson had Gerrard in midfield and Luis Suarez up front.

Who the hell do we have? Bruno, maybe, a past it Case and Hojlund.

Keep things in perspective rather than torture ourselves with such comparisons.
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Hodgson didn’t have Suarez, he was signed by Dalglish, who replaced him on an interim basis.
 
Stig said:
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.

But I give you David Moyes at Everton.

and I just read this

Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.

It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.

If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
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But you've also seen Moyes go into clubs and struggle right?

So how does that work with your theory? Was Moyes a bad manager then but a good manager now?

Or are other factors at play?
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Ask that to fans moaning tha the manager 'wont change his formation to suit the players". Players who struggled for an entire season in the formation they were all bought to play in and were used to operating in.....
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Fair enough but our current struggles under Amorim aren't solely down to switching formation. And our struggles under Tan Hag for 18 months weren't due to playing 4231 either it was primarily due to Ten Hag employing a brand of football that made little or no sense and stubbornly sticking with it. We did fine in 22/23 with 4231 using more sensible tactics.

I'd agree that this squad is more suited to 4231/433 but I think most of our struggles this season can be traced back to a lack of quality training under Ten Hag, virtually no midfield/defensive structure being implemented for a long period (something Amorim has improved), key personnel missing and a factor that gets overlooked I feel. This squad virtually to a man has or was rock bottom in terms of confidence. Half of them look much worse players than they are right now.
 
Stig said:
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.

But I give you David Moyes at Everton.

and I just read this

Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.

It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.

If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
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Though Moyes has tweaked us as a side and performed far better than Dyche has, the structure of our side is much more similar in terms of Dyche and Moyes, than it is between Ten Hag and Amorim.

It baffles me that posters here, fans in general and pundits (saw Murphy mention it on MOTD) throw out the line about Amorim not playing a style which suits the players you have more and changing his system to cater to that. He has said countless times he's not doing that. The management team at United will know he's not going to do that. They appointed him to do what he did best at Sporting which was that style and formation. They already started to back him in that respect in Jan with the signing of Dorgu and they will in the summer. It's a risk because you'll then be stuck with a squad suited to that style but it's obviously a risk the upper management team at United have been willing to take and are willing to take.
 
roseguy64 said:
Meaning that the reason Moyes and Pereira have managed to turn around Wolves and Everton is because of their experience in multiple different situations at different clubs. Relegation battling and otherwise.
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Turning things around at a club with the size and intense level of scrutiny of United is obviously a much more difficult job than doing it at a smaller club. Just ask Moyes, who took a league winning side from Champions into complete free fall in months. Amorim was never going to be successful in year one given the unique circumstances of how he took the job.
 
kouroux said:
It's not baffling when you see that this current shit team isn't suited for it. I have no fecking idea about the part in bold.
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It's a fairly simple analogy to get. A number of fans are acting like it's better to return to slavery on a brutal plantation "cause they fed better". Rather than retain self autonomy on the journey to true freedom at the first sight of hunger pangs from inconsistent food supply. ....

kouroux said:
There is being bad and there is being what we currently are. What was the point in appointing Amorim if there wasn't an expectation that things would improve ?


I have no doub he's given carte blanche. It's the only sensible explanation.
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Honestly there is more to it than just bring given "Carte Blanche*


The entire point of appointing him was to improve the long term footballing health of the team. Not a temporary short in the arm fix like adrenaline. Which keeping a Van Nistelrooy till the summer running the status who would have been.


That is why the entire footballing direction, from tactics to style was uprooted in mid season. An incredible risk to take in mid season. I'm hence struggling to believe anyone who now expresses surprise at significant improvement proving difficult since, yet the uprooting was done with significant weakining rather than reinforcing of the already problematic squad in January after it was done.
 
stevoc said:
Fair enough but our current struggles under Amorim aren't solely down to switching formation. And our struggles under Tan Hag for 18 months weren't due to playing 4231 either it was primarily due to Ten Hag employing a brand of football that made little or no sense and stubbornly sticking with it. We did fine in 22/23 with 4231 using more sensible tactics.

I'd agree that this squad is more suited to 4231/433 but I think most of our struggles this season can be traced back to a lack of quality training under Ten Hag, virtually no midfield/defensive structure being implemented for a long period (something Amorim has improved), key personnel missing and a factor that gets overlooked I feel. This squad virtually to a man has or was rock bottom in terms of confidence. Half of them look much worse players than they are right now.
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We are largely on the same page, then. I agree this squad is largely suited to back 4 shapes. However, I feel the greatest thing overlooked about this squad is the knowledge gap they are being forced to over come. 95% of them had NEVER operated in back 3 systems at any level. Bar Maguire, Shaw, Mount, Amad and Hoijlund (I believe) when the switch to a back 3 strategem occurred. Not enough slack is being cut to these players that they are literally learning the formation on the job! Yet at the same time having to try and learn front foot, posession control and pressing football fron the manager. Yet this is ocuuring with minimal training time in mid season, yet the side already was struggling with confidence and mentality before it all began! So it tends to be surspring so many fans are ultra focused on results and position in the table. Rather than whether there has been signigcany progress amongst these players in understanding of playing position, team shape, plus how the coach prefers them to operate on and off the ball as a unit.

In my personal view over the 21 game period we have become a much better team at understanding team how to operate in the preffered 3-4-3 of the coach. Even with personnel issues, when using our strongest possible available team, opponents no longer walk all over us like they were doing even at our best under ETH. We are much harder to play against than when he first took over. Our only significant draw back is we are still just as toothless upfront. Which to be fair to him (even them) is entirely a personnel issue.
 
MaxZorin said:
Bluh-deh furriners ar tooo sex-eh


Hodgson had Gerrard in midfield and Luis Suarez up front.

Who the hell do we have? Bruno, maybe, a past it Case and Hojlund.

Keep things in perspective rather than torture ourselves with such comparisons.
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The comparison is there as this is probably the worst a top 6 manager has ever performed. Until now.
 
Andy_Cole said:
The comparison is there as this is probably the worst a top 6 manager has ever performed. Until now.
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Under much different circumstances, however.

You're not wrong to suggest it's not been good enough and can't carry on too much longer, but comparing Amorim unfairly isn't the solution.

Especially if there's no contingency, no replacement name to discuss.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It's a fairly simple analogy to get. A number of fans are acting like it's better to return to slavery on a brutal plantation "cause they fed better". Rather than retain self autonomy on the journey to true freedom at the first sight of hunger pangs from inconsistent food supply. ....

Honestly there is more to it than just bring given "Carte Blanche*


The entire point of appointing him was to improve the long term footballing health of the team. Not a temporary short in the arm fix like adrenaline. Which keeping a Van Nistelrooy till the summer running the status who would have been.


That is why the entire footballing direction, from tactics to style was uprooted in mid season. An incredible risk to take in mid season. I'm hence struggling to believe anyone who now expresses surprise at significant improvement proving difficult since, yet the uprooting was done with significant weakining rather than reinforcing of the already problematic squad in January after it was done.
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I'm all for long term thinking but a short term strategy alongside that wouldn't have been a bad thing.

No European football of any kind will cost us a shit load of money which is going to ultimately impact our plans in the medium term at the very least.

The points difference between us and 8th (and potential qualification to Europa League) isn't that massive. A few tweaks to this formation might have seen us pick up a couple more wins and at the very least, give us something (however small) to fight for between now and the end of the season.

And I know I keep banging on about this but fans were expected to keep going to matches and paying full price even though the club has essentially decided that the season can just become an experiment.

If I decided to sack a few home games this season, I would have had my season ticket taken off me for next season. Yet, the club have been seemingly happy to do this since January. The whole thing is shite.
 
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The Henry analysis on MNF was a bit damming on the drawbacks of the current formation. We do look like we have struggled to progress the ball out from the back because instead of a CM dropping in and collecting the ball deep, it's now a defender who is worse on the ball. Our wingbacks also sit in quite deep, so the players ahead of the ball are outnumbered. As Henry pointed out it's partly as the wide CBs are not really splitting at coming out wide.

Also it feels like back 5 is generally quite flat and move the ball slowly across themsel. Rarely do we see the CBs breaking the line (eg Sheff Utd underlapping CBs a few seasons back) or wingbacks starting high.

I wonder how much Amorim's vision has been shaped by coaching in a much slower league.
 
Eugenius said:
The Henry analysis on MNF was a bit damming on the drawbacks of the current formation. We do look like we have struggled to progress the ball out from the back because instead of a CM dropping in and collecting the ball deep, it's now a defender who is worse on the ball. Our wingbacks also sit in quite deep, so the players ahead of the ball are outnumbered. As Henry pointed out it's partly as the wide CBs are not really splitting at coming out wide.

Also it feels like back 5 is generally quite flat and move the ball slowly across themsel. Rarely do we see the CBs breaking the line (eg Sheff Utd underlapping CBs a few seasons back) or wingbacks starting high.
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We have looked like we struggle to progress the ball from the back for at least 2 seasons and it has nothing to do with the formation
 
MaxZorin said:
I'm all for long term thinking but a short term strategy alongside that wouldn't have been a bad thing.
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KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
No European football of any kind will cost us a shit load of money which is going to ultimately impact our plans in the medium term at the very least.

The points difference between us and 8th (and potential qualification to Europa League) isn't that massive. A few tweaks to this formation might have seen us pick up a couple more wins and at the very least, give us something (however small) to fight for between now and the end of the season.

And I know I keep banging on about this but fans were expected to keep going to matches and paying full price even though the club has essentially decided that the season can just become an experiment.

If I decided to sack a few home games this season, I would have had my season ticket taken off me for next season. Yet, the club have been seemingly happy to do this since January. The whole thing is shite.
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This. Talk of sacking off matches such as Newcastle on Sunday by many posters and ‘it not mattering’. The club can say it’s planning for the future and it will take time etc. but meanwhile supporters are expected to be patient when many of the recent performances point to us being in this position (if not worse) this time next year.

I was at the game to the very end on Sunday and through sheer bloody mindedness joined in with the Amorim song - but what I had seen unfold in that second half (Drogu was shocking when he came on) made me not necessarily believe the sentiment if Drogu is indicative of the type of player Amorim has in mind as part of his rebuild.
 
rk4utd said:
This. Talk of sacking off matches such as Newcastle on Sunday by many posters and ‘it not mattering’. The club can say it’s planning for the future and it will take time etc. but meanwhile supporters are expected to be patient when many of the recent performances point to us being in this position (if not worse) this time next year.

I was at the game to the very end on Sunday and through sheer bloody mindedness joined in with the Amorim song - but what I had seen unfold in that second half (Drogu was shocking when he came on) made me not necessarily believe the sentiment if Drogu is indicative of the type of player Amorim has in mind as part of his rebuild.
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There's also the fact that I've had friends lose their jobs so the club can save 50k a year yet the team finishing 15th will see us lose out on 10 million on prize money compared to whoever finishes in 10th ffs.

Fair play for sticking to the end on Sunday. Newcastle is usually a decent away even when we're shite.
 
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