Ive seen Rooney outrun Henry and Essien. He also kept up with Ronaldo just fine. All this lack of pace Bullshit doesn't make sense. Rooney is is one of the fastest and most powerful players in England.
Rooney
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Oh right, sorry I was talking about the fact that many of Rooney's shouts at the edge of the area get blocked. But again that's to be expected as he plays much further up and a lot close to either centre back.
His run just before he scored yesterday was quick as feck.
I just think that judging a player's speed - from watching on TV and or the stands - is such an inexact science you can't take the perception of an observer as an accurate barometer of his true speed. There's all sorts of examples of fans being a poor judge of how quick a player really is. I remember SAF recently pointing out the fastest player he has ever managed was Gary Pallister, I doubt he would have been the first name mentioned by anyone on redcafe!
When Rooney burst on the scene there was such a buzz around him and we got so excited about his potential that there's every chance we were perceiving him as being quicker than he really was. You've also got to bear in mind he wasn't paid as much attention by defenders and was much better able to engineer a one on one against a defender and beat them comprehensively enough to give him a yard head start. These days he's usually got at least two defenders all over him the second he's got the ball and they're much wiser to the (somewhat limited, to be fair) array of tricks he might use to beat them.
I just can't buy this theory that he's in decline, physically. I think it's much much more likely that he's just as quick, if not quicker, but less likely to get the wide open spaces to exploit it. Same thing with his shooting. It's not getting worse it's just that the opposition know he's deadly from range and are much quicker to close him down whenever a shot is on, hence it's much harder to find the time and space he used to get around the edge of the box.
Beside, he still looks quick as feck when he needs to be. Left the West Ham defence for dead when he scored at the weekend and frequently kept pace with Ronaldo on breakaway goals in the last couple of seasons (including that amazing goal against Arsenal)
I think it's great that Rooney has scored as many league goals as Drogba and more than Torres. He can't be too bad!
Torres has hardly played.
It might be connected to all the injuries. Sometimes it's psychological.... Giggs in his late twenties could probably run as fast as he could at seventeen, if he had to, but it looked like he was scared to open up fully in case the groin went. Same with Owen now. Rooney's injuries have been more bone breaks though, so maybe not.
Maybe not the fastest ever, but he was clearly fast as feck and everyone knew it.
This is a good point, the arms race between attackers and defenders doesn't get enough focus. Especially with wingers... people are very quick to declare that the likes of Lennon have lost it after a difficult season or two, but usually it's because defenders have learnt where to position themselves to stop the getting a yard of space, and they have to rethink their moves.Pogue said:
I'm certainly not saying he's in decline, it's not like he's getting slower every year. I just think he's lost half a yard since he was eighteen. It's not just general explosiveness and getting away from his man, you can see it when he's put through on goal - balls he would have reached the keeper gets to just before him. It's no catastrophe, he's still quick.Pogue said:
The one where Gibson played him through? If it's the same I'm thinking of then he looked bloody rapid for sure.
i think his top speed is probably the same pogue, however, he has definatlty lost the explosiveness over the first couple of yards, which would carry him clear of his marker. This happens, it seemsyou are your quickest between the ages of 18-22, same has happened with ronaldo whos acceleration used to be rapid and was so light footed. I could be wrong about that observation on the whole but rooney has undoubtedly lost a bit of acceleration.
Yeah but that was probably a 50m sprint, speed in football is all about acceleration over 5/10 yards. Bergkamp for example was the fastest Arsenal player over 50m but Ljungberg was the quickest over 5m.
Over 5 miles?
This has been discussed before. It's simply not true. Check out the age at which most olympic sprinters run their personal best. Almost always mid to late twenties (with the few exceptions being those who get hampered by recurrent muscular injuries, like Owen and Giggs)
I was going to respond to your post, Pogue, but Plech basically wrote what I would have. I don't think he's in decline physically, as I would say he's gotten a lot stronger in that time, I just think he's slightly slower. He's still quick, so I'm not suggesting he's slow, but I don't think he has the same sort of raw pace he had.
Didn't Linford win an Olympic gold when he was around 30?
And you're correct; physically sprinters are at their peak in their mid to late 20's
Maurice GREENE was 26, Owens was 23,donovan Bailey was 29,Carl Lewis 23 when he won in LA
Fairy muff.
It's funny actualy. This is one of those very few occasions where it's not just about opinions. There's someone at the club knows for certain whether or not Rooney has lost some pace since his teens.
Until we get hold of that info, us llesser mortals will have to keep on disagreeing and calling each other spastics and stuff. Spastic.
spastic 
Is it wise to use Sprinters as an example when most of them are pumped up on drugs?
My take on Rooney is this, due to injuries, his body filling out he isn't as agile as he was as a youngster. Has he lost pace? I doubt it... last year when he was on that crazy form during October he was running as fast as he ever has done.. it's directly linked to confidence and match fitness.
When he's lean and in form, he can still reach optimum pace. However he cannot consistently display pace throughout 90 minutes like a messi for instance or a young Rooney, this is down to his body shape and weight.. it takes more out of him having to move that heavy body than in his younger days.. so he picks and chooses his moments and is less inclined to dribble past players.
Ronaldo is going through the same thing, he can barely dribble like he used to back when he was 18-22..06/07 was the zenith of his dribbling, after that he's bulked up too much and isn't very light on his feet.
Both can still run very fast, but their pace with the ball has declined especially when running at defenders.. once they're free of a defender they are still as fast as they ever were.. but I believe both of them have overbulked and lost agility in the process.
What amazes me is someone like Giggs whose body shape has stayed relatively slim and is just as agile as he ever was.
My take on Rooney is this, due to injuries, his body filling out he isn't as agile as he was as a youngster. Has he lost pace? I doubt it... last year when he was on that crazy form during October he was running as fast as he ever has done.. it's directly linked to confidence and match fitness.
When he's lean and in form, he can still reach optimum pace. However he cannot consistently display pace throughout 90 minutes like a messi for instance or a young Rooney, this is down to his body shape and weight.. it takes more out of him having to move that heavy body than in his younger days.. so he picks and chooses his moments and is less inclined to dribble past players.
Ronaldo is going through the same thing, he can barely dribble like he used to back when he was 18-22..06/07 was the zenith of his dribbling, after that he's bulked up too much and isn't very light on his feet.
Both can still run very fast, but their pace with the ball has declined especially when running at defenders.. once they're free of a defender they are still as fast as they ever were.. but I believe both of them have overbulked and lost agility in the process.
What amazes me is someone like Giggs whose body shape has stayed relatively slim and is just as agile as he ever was.
Bump
Today, I watch the match with some mates and obviously we were frustrated... One of the lads at the other table I over-heard, said Rooney will: "Never be a leader or the star of the team, he needs a sidekick"
Obviously he meant Ronaldo, doesn't take rocket science to discover that, but i'm just wondering what your opinions of this statement are.
Today, I watch the match with some mates and obviously we were frustrated... One of the lads at the other table I over-heard, said Rooney will: "Never be a leader or the star of the team, he needs a sidekick"
Obviously he meant Ronaldo, doesn't take rocket science to discover that, but i'm just wondering what your opinions of this statement are.
Most of my ire during the Villa game was directed towards Rooney.
It's a good job that he has scored at a good rate this season, because I'd say that his overall contribution to any other aspect of our game has been a long way short of what we expect.
I almost blew a gasket when Joe Royle said on about 92 mins that he had been extremely impressed with Rooney just because he'd come scurrying back to win possession in his own half. He's supposed to be the fecking centre forward and fulcrum of our attack. How about doing what should be supposedly simple right?
There was one ball which summed Rooney up. It was a 10 yard diagonal pass to put Berbatov through. There was a chasm of space between the two Villa defenders. Get the weight right and Berbatov takes it in his stride and he's through one on one. As so often is the case though the execution of a relatively simple pass was poor and it went through to Friedel.
It's not just a criticism of Rooney actually. We play some great stuff up until the penalty box and the final ball consistently lets us down. Our crossing is consistently poor and when we do whip a good one in, none of our strikers (bar Owen) are any good at anticipating - they're always on their heels (especially Berbatov). And let's not even start on corners.
10 yard pass? It was 3 at the most.
Very very disappointing second-half display from Rooney.
All the more so, since he played so well in the first. The touch which set up his shot against the bar was absolutely breathtaking.
As Cpt Marvel said the other day. Rooney is nowhere near consistent enough for us to build a team around him. Not yet anyway.
Very very disappointing second-half display from Rooney.
All the more so, since he played so well in the first. The touch which set up his shot against the bar was absolutely breathtaking.
As Cpt Marvel said the other day. Rooney is nowhere near consistent enough for us to build a team around him. Not yet anyway.
Rooney's been disappointing in recent weeks thats for sure. Needs to get his shit sorted because we need a in form Rooney.
Well I thought he was one of our best players in the fist half.
His second half though was a feckin scandal
But does he even posess the attributes to be that guy? I know this coming World Cup many focus Englands hopes on Rooney, but from my perspective the most important piece of Englands puzzle is consistancy from all levels, not one player.
I hate using the word, but maybe we over-rate Rooney's current ability, which would in hand, over-rate his potential ability?
I still think Rooney has these skills potentially, but with every passing oppourtunity i'm a bit skeptical.
Mind you, this is his first season in these chances, he'd always been shadowed by that Portugal lad.
Our entire second half was a fecking scandal to be fair to him, Godfather.
Rooney has been England's best and most consistent player because he's played in the same position all the time. This season he started off playing with Berbatov and then finds himself up front on his own and then just recently he played left wing in the second half of the Villa game. Go figure.
No where near the top bracket of strikers in my eyes. Been banging on for absolutely ages now. We needed a talisman after Ronaldo went and this boy ain't it.
Fair enough. Let's sign Benzema! Could do with another decent striker in the team that isn't named Rooney.
Rooney is quieter these days for me which isn't good. He's better when he's angry
As for today - we can talk about people playing alongside Rooney BUT look at our defence....People shouldn't forget how hampered we've been for a number of weeks now and it does effect all areas of the team. We had done remarkablely well to go this far and not be battered.
Today was about the injuries coming back to bite us on the backside. You can have Ronaldo out there - you can have who you want. The fact is you need a settled defence. Our backline is too inexperienced and today the midfield has not protected it well enough.
However, Rooneys form should bother people. In general, he's lost his spark.
As for today - we can talk about people playing alongside Rooney BUT look at our defence....People shouldn't forget how hampered we've been for a number of weeks now and it does effect all areas of the team. We had done remarkablely well to go this far and not be battered.
Today was about the injuries coming back to bite us on the backside. You can have Ronaldo out there - you can have who you want. The fact is you need a settled defence. Our backline is too inexperienced and today the midfield has not protected it well enough.
However, Rooneys form should bother people. In general, he's lost his spark.
This is kind of unfair to judge right now, considering Rooney's poor form this season came a) While his wife was giving birth, b) While our backline has gone through dispair, and c) With a midfield behind him that's still trying to click.
He's also still left alone and to the left far too much, but we won't dwell into that.
Still have faith in the lad, but he seems like Ronaldos Robin to his batman.
He's also still left alone and to the left far too much, but we won't dwell into that.
Still have faith in the lad, but he seems like Ronaldos Robin to his batman.
Nah, don't rate Benzema much son. Nice try though.
This isn't about replacing Rooney. This is about getting to why he's so inconsistent. No actually, inconsistent gives him too much credit. I can't think of his last truly stand out game.
Be honest, you're struggling to as well.
He's still our best player.
His form has nose dived since the baby was born....maybe thats got something to do with it....although in all honesty he hasnt been great for a long time now....
This season thats more likely between Fletcher and Giggs.
I'd give that to Evra.
He is a top class striker. I think you're just expecting too much from Rooney. He is scoring more regularly than Ronaldo did last season. The problem is not replacing Ronaldo, but replacing Rooney. We had two or three goal scorers last season who could change the game, we now only have one.
define 'best player'.
Evra's been more consistent and put in better performances more often than not this season.
he is our best player.
Being brought down by the rest I'd say.
And that's why I'm so frustrated. I'm not an idiot. I full well know that he has a shit load of potential, but he's miserably failing to fulfill it with his performances.
My criticisms of Rooney are not because I want him sold/dropped. It's just that he'd be so much more valuable if he sorted his form out.
We currently have no talisman. It's undeniable. Someone who can just change the route of the game at 1-0.
He needs a regular partner. Its just so obvious, playing him upfront as a lone front man just wont work. And relying on him to score all our goals wont either, hes not a goalscorer, hoping he turns into one doesnt actually mean he will.
Give him a pacy striker to play behind, and watch him fly.
Give him a pacy striker to play behind, and watch him fly.
i thought great players were supposed to lift the rest.