he's a scouser, and we know how they are predisposed towards boom-bust cycles.
Rooney
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Benzema's still settling into a new club where he's more of a perhipheral figure amongst a number of stars. He'd be more suited to United I feel where he would be partnered with a more dynamic player such as Rooney than Raul who is at the latter end of his career.
For what it's worth I thought he was poor last season to the extent where he went from a guaranteed starter to one that couldn't get into the first XI. Nothing suggests that this season won't head the same way for me.
I know goals aren't the be all or end all of the game but Berbatov hasn't been excellent as you claim. In fact I'd say he's only been excellent for about 3 matches which isn't exactly great. Rooney has been pretty good for about 3 matches in the same period despite having an abysmal season as some claim. I'd expect a return of more than just 1 goal in four which is what Berbatov has given us this season for someone to be deemed excellent.
He probably doesn't bring the best out of Rooney which doesn't help his case. But if he was consistently performing rather than the odd flick or touch then the doubters would be pressing his case further rather than suggesting that we're still dependent Rooney. Because even if Wayne is in poor form, he still remains influential.
I will repeat what smart posters have said.
Rooney is in poor form for his standards. However, he is soo good that even when he is playing shit he is still our most influential attacker besides Ryan feckin Giggs and Patrice Evra.
Rooney obviously has alot on his mind but I also think he is struggling with playing with new forwards and forwards that change week in and week out. God I hope Berba and Rooney can learn to play with eachother because if they do they have the ability to set the PL on fire.
The question is - should Rooney alter his game to accomodate Berba or should Berba alter his game to suit Rooney?
Maybe its not as easy as this but something has got to give, they are too talented to not be effective together.
Or we could have 2 world class playmakers that refuse to get behind defenders and poach for goals.
Rooney is in poor form for his standards. However, he is soo good that even when he is playing shit he is still our most influential attacker besides Ryan feckin Giggs and Patrice Evra.
Rooney obviously has alot on his mind but I also think he is struggling with playing with new forwards and forwards that change week in and week out. God I hope Berba and Rooney can learn to play with eachother because if they do they have the ability to set the PL on fire.
The question is - should Rooney alter his game to accomodate Berba or should Berba alter his game to suit Rooney?
Maybe its not as easy as this but something has got to give, they are too talented to not be effective together.
Or we could have 2 world class playmakers that refuse to get behind defenders and poach for goals.
I had this discussion over a nice smoke with some mates today and I had a few points I brought up i'd like to share, feel free to rip me up if you please:
1. Taking the fierceness out of his game has ruined him.
It's not a mystery, he's not as aggressive as he used to be... The Rooney that used to do whatever it took to get the ball at his feet was the Wayne Rooney we've grown to love since he stepped foot on that cold European night. OK, so there's obvious benefits: Less cards dished out, less spastic moments, more focus on the game, lets off the refs a bit than in years past... But he still bitches at teammates, and will still have a tantrum when things don't go his way. Does he need that drive in his game?
2. Fergie putting him on the left...
Broken record, I know, but maybe his versatility is his downfall? Most people were, are, and are forever against the idea of Rooney playing wide in a front 3 (Or middle 5) and it may have has long-term effects on his talents up front?
3. Maybe he's just not that prolific?
I mean, we could actually compare him to other great strikers in the world and he'd probably lose in most comparisons when it comes to what you want a striker to do... Compare him to them in other aspects, and he runs circles around most of them. Wayne Rooney is probably one of the most dynamic, if not THE most dynamic "forward" in football, because of his skillset around the entire pitch. I for one se no harm in this, but for people who look at goals and the final ball as a judge of his form, they don't like this.
4. The partner is yet to be found
Van Nistelrooy & Rooney were magic to watch, but you feel they never reached their peak before Ruud left for Madrid... His partnership with Rooney was on itsway to fantastic status, wheeeen Ronaldo decided to be a one-man show and also leave to Spain... MAYBE Wayne Rooney doesn't have the partner yet, and as RDC mentioned before me: Should he sacrifice and adjust?
So many questions with this lad, but I still don't complain.
1. Taking the fierceness out of his game has ruined him.
It's not a mystery, he's not as aggressive as he used to be... The Rooney that used to do whatever it took to get the ball at his feet was the Wayne Rooney we've grown to love since he stepped foot on that cold European night. OK, so there's obvious benefits: Less cards dished out, less spastic moments, more focus on the game, lets off the refs a bit than in years past... But he still bitches at teammates, and will still have a tantrum when things don't go his way. Does he need that drive in his game?
2. Fergie putting him on the left...
Broken record, I know, but maybe his versatility is his downfall? Most people were, are, and are forever against the idea of Rooney playing wide in a front 3 (Or middle 5) and it may have has long-term effects on his talents up front?
3. Maybe he's just not that prolific?
I mean, we could actually compare him to other great strikers in the world and he'd probably lose in most comparisons when it comes to what you want a striker to do... Compare him to them in other aspects, and he runs circles around most of them. Wayne Rooney is probably one of the most dynamic, if not THE most dynamic "forward" in football, because of his skillset around the entire pitch. I for one se no harm in this, but for people who look at goals and the final ball as a judge of his form, they don't like this.
4. The partner is yet to be found
Van Nistelrooy & Rooney were magic to watch, but you feel they never reached their peak before Ruud left for Madrid... His partnership with Rooney was on itsway to fantastic status, wheeeen Ronaldo decided to be a one-man show and also leave to Spain... MAYBE Wayne Rooney doesn't have the partner yet, and as RDC mentioned before me: Should he sacrifice and adjust?
So many questions with this lad, but I still don't complain.
Rooney's presence alone fires a lot of players into action, including opposition defenders. But what sucks is his erratic passing. Sometimes many a promising move gets broken down due to bad passing; and Rooney is the offender most of the time. ( I can feel the stones coming down).
No you're 100% right, and what is most depressing is the majority of this mis-placed passes are with the back to goal, which are, for all purposes, continuation passes for a build up.
Your letting his last few appearances cloud your view.
Rooney is perhaps one of the best passers and playmakers in the world. When I think of Rooney, I think playmaker, NOT goalscorer.
Rooney's passing percentage is never high like Scholes or Fabregas because Rooney plays waay more killer balls than midfielders like them. Rooney is so good at these balls that you encourage him to keep doing them because when they come off he can slice a team right open.
Not many footballers can place a through ball, flick, cross field bullet or backheel to Rooney's effect.
It only seems like Rooney is less effective these days because goals and screamers get more spotlite than buildup, assists and influence.
Take the CL final in 08. Many say he was crap. He was marked out of the game more than usual but provided one of the best passes Ive ever seen after stripping Carvalho in his own half and sending a 60 yarder right to Ronnie who set up Carrick who blew his chance. he also threaded a beauty pass between Cole's (think it was him) legs right to Tevez who blew that chance.
Rooney is fine. Once he improves his finishing, especially his one on ones, he will be among the elite. He needs to score more. End of. I love the rest of his game. He hasn't scored a screaming volley for a while, but more importantly he has learned how to win.
I think you talk about Rooney from previous seasons when he was one of the best creative players in the league. This season, Rooney has started 15 games and created 0 goals. Berbatov isn't much better either with only 2 assists in the league and 1 in the CL. That's not enough. The team as a whole however scores enough goals IMO and this is more important. Last season we had Ronaldo but were scoring less goals.
I get the feeling that Wayne Rooney only plays to the best of his abilities when he has that red mist of his going. When he's all calm and collected, he's pretty wasteful.
This season, we've really looked like going on to score a lot of goals when Giggs has been in vintage form. When he's been at it, the goals/chances have generally flowed. When Giggs hasn't played or has been below par, we've look devoid of ideas in all honesty. I think Berbatov has done well as a creative player, but to a lesser extent. We're definetly missing someone of that creative ilk - we can't rely on a 36 year old for every game.
The bit in bold is just not true though is it? There are few players around who attempt more daring killer balls than Fabregas and Scholes.
I see some logic in this.
The fiereness thing is a tricksy one isn't it? Has he genuinely had it taken out of him? Or is he just a bit older and wiser? Is he paranoid about getting carded? He certainly doesn't appear to be but he also has less of those moments in the game where you used to sit there and think 'shit, shit, shit ... he's losing it. He's going to get sent off.' That rawness, that single minded need to win is clearly still there, but it sometimes seems like he thinks he needs to drag the rest of the team with him - consciously dictate the whole game. Whereas before it was just him and the ball and the net.
Lies, damned lies and statistics. Berbatov could easily have had 6-7 assists, he's made some brilliant passes to create chances. He can't do anything about other players taking those chances or missing them. Chances are things will even up eventually, and he'll have a good number at the end of the season.
As for Rooney and this thread, yeah - he's a different player now. And it was right for us in previous seasons, for the team, but now we need the more explosive Rooney rather than the more thoughtful one.
In previous seasons Rooney had Tevez and Ronaldo as an outlet, both who gave decent returns (in Ronaldo's case more than decent). This season it's Berbatov, Valencia and a misfiring Nani. Berbatov's goal return is about 1 in 4 in his excellent start to the season so we'll be lucky to get about 10 league goals from him.
We can't expect Rooney to be prolific as he is more of a playmaker than a striker. He's being forced to play primarily as a striker because he's a better one than Berbatov.
He's scored 4 in 11 starts. 7 in 5 for Bulgaria.
He looks far more dangerous this season. The goals will flow.
Let's hope so.
As for Bulgaria, it doesn't concern me in the slightest unless he is playing in a different position to what he has at United and then we should perhaps consider playing him there. Plus during the entire Cup qualification campaign he never really had much of an impact in the big matches against Ireland or Italy. Pretty much how it is for us, look fantastic against Wigan or Sunderland, non-existant or not starting against City or Arsenal.
He may have started 11 matches but I'd only say he had a great impact in three of them. Not that brilliant. Has it all do yet.
Interesting how even though he played in his 'best position', he didn't look significantly better.
Well he looked far more ineffective in his actual 'best position' last week when he had SWP to his right, Milner to the left and Bent up ahead.
He wasnt non-existant against City - he got into good positions and was foiled by a couple of good saves. Had 5 minutes against Arsenal.
Re Bulgaria - it's good for us if he is getting his eye in because form should transfer over.
Irrespective, I'm confident he'll go onto have a class season.
They weren't good saves, more like poor finishes as majority of shots were straight at Given. Had such a good game he eventually had to be taken off. Hasn't played a full match against any of big sides either. Least in the five minutes against Arsenal he spoiled a great chance to put the game to bed when the gooners were chasing.
In terms of Bulgaria the fact that the internationals are over and he's still injured, the good form might be a bit useless. Particularly as he hasn't transferred it over to United already.
Again I'm not saying he's had a bad season. Just not been brilliant and certainly not put Rooney to shade. People thought he would kick on this season after a pre-season. Still waiting I'm afraid.
He has kicked on this season.
He might not be your favourite striker but you can't ignore his improvement this season.
If by kicked on you mean he went from poor to fairly decent then yeah he has kicked on. I was hoping he would be exceptional and show he is a world class player which he hasn't done. I don't know, maybe I'm asking too much and the fact is that he isn't good enough.
You have to be exceptional to be good enough?
Hmm.
Hmm.
You do if you want to be more than just a squad player. Or be deemed to have had a great season.
I never said Berbatov wasn't "good enough" for the moment. Just has to show a lot more for me to be convinced he will be a great player for us.
If you're asking too much then he can never be good enough by the impossible standards you set, so that's a moot point.
He's clearly good enough for United though.
So he won't be a great player for us? And the form he has shown so far this season is the best we can hope for?
If so then fine, I'll back off from castigating Berbatov to improve further and just assume he is playing to the best of his ability.
Bollocks.
So the likes of Van Der Sar, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Fletcher, Rooney are all just good enough? Players who's spot in the team is unquestionable. Berbatov hasn't joined that rank seeing as I don't think he would start if we played 4-3-3.
I've no idea what you're expecting from him, to be honest, but you've just admitted to expecting too much.
Personally, I'm very happy with his performances so far this season - which was to expected, in his second season at the club - and more of the same will do just fine. feck knows if that will satisfy you but again, that's a moot point.
Wouldn't call VDS or Fletcher exceptional, and I'd say Valencia's well on his way to being more than just a squad player, despite not being an exceptional player.
You can be a very good to play for United, Berbatov's getting there. Slowly, but he's getting there.
You don't think you're a tad over-critical of him?
No I didn't. I said maybe I'm expecting too much, key word being "maybe". If this season so far is the best he can do, then no one should expect anything further.
I've generally found his performances ok but nothing outstanding. If by the end of the season he plays an integral part to the season I'd be happy.
Depends on what you would class as exceptional. I'd say VDS and Fletcher are, although I wouldn't count either as a world class player. They're in the notch below. Agree though that Valencia is on his way as well and am glad he is showing he is a useful player. But I think he has the capability to be an exceptional player.
Berbatov is an outstanding player on his day. But still has a while to go and I'd like it if he was a bit more consistent.
Probably am a bit over-critical but he is a record signing, and it's his second season with a pre-season behind him. I'm not saying he has had a bad season just if he needs to show more for people to hype up his performances.
Players like Berbatov and Valencia have it in them to be consistent match-winners.. however they have to be given time to develop and buy into the mentality of how to operate within a successful club. Playing for the likes of Spurs and Wigan you can afford long spells of mediocrity.
Fergie is the master of instilling this winning ethos, he will make sure they will string successive great performances and not one offs.. just give them time. Both have the potential to be exceptional.
Berbatov is 29 soon though, how much more time can we give him to become 'exceptional'? I think it's better at this stage to accept what he is for us, he's never going to be the clinical striker that we needed when we bought him, but he does have his other uses, fo' sho'.
He's not the sort of player who is suddenly just depreciate in terms of his qualities as he gets older.
nor is he going to appreciate to becoming a world class striker. he is what he is....a leverkusen/spurs level striker.
Who just played a vital role in winning the Premier League. Go figure.
vital indeed
just to spark some debate
He'll come good sooner or later, just a dip in form probably related to having a new baby to look after! His shooting is feckin awful lately though.
just like macheda played a vital role in us winning the prem.
lets not go and over estimate what berba did last term. he came to an already double winning side, that had the BPITW and the best defense in europe. he didn't have to do much to contribute. tevez had game winning goals for us as well, but as we all know, he isn't utd first XI quality either.
when the chips were down in the run in during the season, berba was dropped left and right.
fact is, players like berba and tevez, while united squad quality, are not first xi united material.
until we get wayne the proper partner up top, he's going to be a victim of his own superior ability/versatility and have to 'do a job' to mask inadequacies of the the squad.