Possibly, he was our most attacking midfielder either way. The more the other 2 midfielders take up the responsibility and allow him to just focus on attacking the better we play.
6
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Pogba covered the least of our midfielders, the rest were not far off Kante kind of distances, there was a thread on it. It was our forwards in Martial and Lukaku that had really shocking statistics.
I know he's played there before but the question is does he serve the system as a whole there. It's the Pogba conundrum isn't it, where does he fit best for the good of the team.
Certainly not as a no 10 in a pressing side if his workrate is an issue
What I mean is statistically he did more defending that our DM last season which is an issue, I for one do not think he is great defensively but I don't think a CM has to be, there are plenty of CMs who are not.- you do realise I’d love him to be a success here? I’m just fairly certain in my convictions that is not going to happen.
Anyway I thought he had already come and said his preferred position is on the left of a midfield 3.
I think that's why Ole is playing him as a DLP because he wants that high intensity style favoured by most modern sides.
I think Pogba is better as an 8. He will get more goals and assists if pushed further forward and roaming.
Yeah I get and understand why he has chosen to do that. The main issue is it doesn't work because non of our 10s can create, so it puts more pressure on Pogba to do it from deep or whoever else. I think Ole needs to be practical about the capabilities of the squad. Having a 10 that presses but does nothing on the ball isn't going to help us. We're better of pressing from a midfield 3 and compensating for Pogba or getting him to run a bit more (he does actually press when he is asked to although I don't think he is as effective as others)
The main issue is and always has been having a competent defensive midfield player to allow him to roam. The minute Matic went to shit our midfield looked unbalanced
And his brother is in the mail again today telling everyone on a radio show that will listen how much zidane loves him.
I think a 433 means the midfield 3 have to be extremely energetic and well rounded. They have to suitably connect the defence to attack and it won't suit all 3. I don't see Pogba as a box to box player.
Not always you can make a midfield 3 in different moulds. Or are you speaking in the context of Ole wanting to press?
Partly from a press and partly when I look at how the best midfield 3 operates in Liverpool. Theirs works because they have all rounders in that role. Pogba I don't think suits a 3. He's no way close to the level he should be in rapidly tracking back and hustling opponents like Wjinaldum/milner/Henderson might or even Fabinho for his build from deeper positions.
Pogba's style is best used towards advanced positions in my opinion. His best moments come even driving the ball in possession and running at players in advanced areas. He can make the late runs into the box and cause a lot more havoc too without the worry of leaving gaps behind.
They are doing something different though. Their midfield 3 doesn't work the same as Citys for instance.
Their midfield also has to work how it does because their fullbacks are so attacking.
Also we should be looking to get the best out of the players we have in the squad, Pogba is our best weapon for creating goal scoring opportunities in our midfield and so that is how our midfield should be setup whilst he is here.
Basically there isn't only one way to setup a midfield 3. You don't need to have 2 box to box players.
Anyway think we are going down a tangent slightly now anyway
Lukaku missed a few last season - I distinctly remember one or two headers that were pretty much sitters.
4-3-3 requires a holding midfielders and two high energy midfielders that are strong defenders otherwise it becomes tactically compromised leaving the defence exposed, you can see effective use of this formation in Sarri's sides, Liverpool (who play this formation or derivatives of it) and and City. I don't think Pogba fits this style.
http://www.soccercoachingpro.com/4-3-3-formation/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...good-for-and-which-players-excel-in-it#slide2
Just for laughs, what exactly does he need to do for him to be successful would you say?
Anyway I thought he had already come and said his preferred position is on the left of a midfield 3.
At Man Utd? Well he would have stay past this season for a start as we aren’t winning anything major this season. Then play a part over the next few years in taking us back to title winners and champions league finals again preferably winning but as we’ve only won three of them it’s a bit harsh to say he has to win one with us.
If he does none of that which he won’t then meh and don’t let the door hit you on the arse.
You make a great point and we should also accept that there are two types of 4-3-3 formations, one with the point backwards that City and Liverpool play and one with the point forward that Mourinho and Benitez played at Chelsea and Liverpool respectively with Lampard and Gerard playing in front of Makalele and Essien/Mascherano and Alonso. The latter one is the one we should look to use with Pogba as the most advanced, he will score and assist enough at least more than Lingard and Mata combined. McTominay plus one will complete our midfield and that should make us difficult to breakdown meaning that we will need fewer goals to win matches.
Cassidy is right though that not all cm's have to be rigid defensively in a 4-3-3. Mourinho's first Chelsea side with Lampard further forward is a good example of the type of system that would unleash Pogba. Why do you think Pogba wouldn't fit into the City system too? People love to put Pogba in a box saying he needs this and that to function correctly. That's not true, just a normal cohesive unit is enough. He can play in 4-4-2, diamond, 4-3-3, you name it etc. You wouldn't put Kaká or Deco in a midfield 2 and expect to get the best out of them would you? Gerrard was at his best with Macherano & Alonso behind him. Etc, etc.
Personally, i think our midfield should be a pivot with McTominay & Fred. Always 2 up front with Martial & Rashford. Then depending on the system you wanted to use, Pogba can naturally fit into the other slot with a winger on the other side in James/Whoever.
The really good ability of our team is that Martial & Rashford are capable of playing as inverted wingers whilst Pogba loves to drift to the left also. When you play Pogba in a 2, you stifle a main part of the teams creativity. We have the ability to create overloads on the left that we really should be taking advantage of with James' electric pace on the other wing.
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So your main gripe with him is that he potentially wants to leave, rather than him being a bad player?
That’s probably top of my list of reasons for not getting a Pogba tattoo just yet, I don’t think he is a bad player at all just not as good as some on here think he is and too inconsistent for all the fuss he brings.
Your expectations are completely over the top. When have we even come close to competing for the top honors in the past 6 years since SAF left? I forgot football wasn't a team game. We could replace Pogba with even Messi in our team and we still wouldn't win the title or the champions league. To expect one player to win titles for you shows how ignorant you must be. City & Liverpool have built extremely good teams. You aren't going to compete with that with one really good player in a disjointed team.
What the hell are you on about?
If you don’t think we should be challenging for the title in the next few years then your standards are too low.
3 or 4 good signings over the next few windows and then possible decline of city or Liverpool’s teams and/or manager leaving why not?
That wasn't what I said, they have to be all action, high energy and defensively competent, it's why players like Milner and Henderson can be elite level in that system because they have the attributes to serve it. A 4-3-3 midfielder in those positions isn't really required to be creative primarily so again it doesn't suit Pogba.
I don't think Pogba would fit in City's system because his work rate is well off what City players in that position produce, they play a very hard pressing game, they are mostly diminutive in stature and thus quick off the mark, you have to get those tactical fouls in after all. Gundogan is their weak link in work rate but still does 11.3km a game (worth noting that City fans think he's inadequate) David Silva covers about 11.6km a game, KDB covers about 12.5km per game and B Silva sometimes up to 13.5km!
I just don't see how Pogba fits into that style of football. Perhaps he could play the Rodri role to a degree but I doubt Pep would pay Pogba money for that position.
I agree, hopefully we will be able to compete for titles in the near future, but until we see an improvement in our team quality, i'm not going to hold our lack of competitiveness against Pogba. It takes a lot more than one player to win trophies.
That is what i took exception to. Your pinning your expectations on one player, (which i think are wildly unrealistic right this second) then already writing him off and using it to bash him. You don't think that is unreasonable?
The bit your taking exception to is me saying “if he leaves in the summer”. That would be my feeling to his 3 years here.
Except he played in a 433 at Juventus with a different midfield setup. Im not necessarily saying we should play 4-3-3 only that there isn't one way to play it and he has played it before and it has worked. It just depends on the makeup of the midfield and the team as a whole as with any player
How come you are comparing him against Liverpool's system? They play an industrious midfield 3 to provide a platform for their front 3 and attacking wing-backs. Their midfield isn't a traditional midfield 3. If they never had a magnificent front 3, then they wouldn't be able to get away with such an uncreative midfield.
A traditional 3 has a defensive mid, box to box mid & a creative mid. Pogba fits into the very definition of a creative mid.
Where can i find the distance covered stats?
Manchester United Players distance covered per 90 in EPL 18/19 (Pogba:11.15km)
Resource：Premier League Official Website
(https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
*Manchester United Players distance covered per 90 mins in EPL 18/19（total time>1400 mins）
Pogba：distance covered 317.14km，total time 2559 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：317.14/2559*90=11.15km
Rashford：distance covered 229.50km，total time 1930 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：229.50/1930*90=10.70km
Matic：distance covered 294.06km，total time 2207 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.99km
Martial：distance covered 156.03km，total time 1482 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.48km
Lukaku：distance covered 211.60km，total time 1932 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.86km
Lingard：distance covered 204.69km，total time 1496 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：12.31km
Shaw：distance covered 268.90km，total time 2322 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.42km
Young：distance covered 259.44km，total time 2164 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.79km
Lindlof：distance covered 248.63km，total time 2249 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.95km
Smalling：distance covered 215.12km，total time 1858 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.42km
**Kante VS Pogba
1.This season:
Kante(EPL 18/19)：distance covered 381.49km，total time 2950 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.63km
Pogba(EPL 18/19)：distance covered 317.14km，total time 2559 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.15km
2.Last season:
Kante(EPL 17/18)：distance covered 369.52km，total time 2998 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.09km
Pogba (EPL 17/18)：distance covered 260.22km，total time 2151 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.89km
Resource：Premier League Official Website
(https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
*Manchester United Players distance covered per 90 mins in EPL 18/19（total time>1400 mins）
Pogba：distance covered 317.14km，total time 2559 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：317.14/2559*90=11.15km
Rashford：distance covered 229.50km，total time 1930 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：229.50/1930*90=10.70km
Matic：distance covered 294.06km，total time 2207 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.99km
Martial：distance covered 156.03km，total time 1482 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.48km
Lukaku：distance covered 211.60km，total time 1932 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.86km
Lingard：distance covered 204.69km，total time 1496 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：12.31km
Shaw：distance covered 268.90km，total time 2322 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.42km
Young：distance covered 259.44km，total time 2164 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.79km
Lindlof：distance covered 248.63km，total time 2249 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.95km
Smalling：distance covered 215.12km，total time 1858 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.42km
**Kante VS Pogba
1.This season:
Kante(EPL 18/19)：distance covered 381.49km，total time 2950 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.63km
Pogba(EPL 18/19)：distance covered 317.14km，total time 2559 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.15km
2.Last season:
Kante(EPL 17/18)：distance covered 369.52km，total time 2998 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.09km
Pogba (EPL 17/18)：distance covered 260.22km，total time 2151 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.89km
I found a link to the stat on reddit, where they show Pogba ran on average 11.15km/match last season. Kante in comparison ran 11.63km. So there's nothing in the distance covered stats really. It must be because Pogba *looks* languid if you're casually watching him.
Matic surprisingly covered a lot of distance last season with 12km/match. No wonder he was dead on his feet before the season ended.
That's your opinion which i take on board. But me personally, quality is quality & i don't see how he couldn't take over either Silva or KDB's role in their team.
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Look on any coaching website on how a 4-3-3 formation works best.How come you are comparing him against Liverpool's system? They play an industrious midfield 3 to provide a platform for their front 3 and attacking wing-backs. Their midfield isn't a traditional midfield 3. If they never had a magnificent front 3, then they wouldn't be able to get away with such an uncreative midfield.
A traditional 3 has a defensive mid, box to box mid & a creative mid. Pogba fits into the very definition of a creative mid.
Where can i find the distance covered stats?
Manchester United Players distance covered per 90 in EPL 18/19 (Pogba:11.15km)
Resource：Premier League Official Website
(https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
*Manchester United Players distance covered per 90 mins in EPL 18/19（total time>1400 mins）
Pogba：distance covered 317.14km，total time 2559 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：317.14/2559*90=11.15km
Rashford：distance covered 229.50km，total time 1930 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：229.50/1930*90=10.70km
Matic：distance covered 294.06km，total time 2207 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.99km
Martial：distance covered 156.03km，total time 1482 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.48km
Lukaku：distance covered 211.60km，total time 1932 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.86km
Lingard：distance covered 204.69km，total time 1496 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：12.31km
Shaw：distance covered 268.90km，total time 2322 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.42km
Young：distance covered 259.44km，total time 2164 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.79km
Lindlof：distance covered 248.63km，total time 2249 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：9.95km
Smalling：distance covered 215.12km，total time 1858 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.42km
**Kante VS Pogba
1.This season:
Kante(EPL 18/19)：distance covered 381.49km，total time 2950 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.63km
Pogba(EPL 18/19)：distance covered 317.14km，total time 2559 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.15km
2.Last season:
Kante(EPL 17/18)：distance covered 369.52km，total time 2998 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：11.09km
Pogba (EPL 17/18)：distance covered 260.22km，total time 2151 mins，distance covered per 90 mins：10.89km
I found a link to the stat on reddit, where they show Pogba ran on average 11.15km/match last season. Kante in comparison ran 11.63km. So there's nothing in the distance covered stats really. It must be because Pogba *looks* languid if you're casually watching him.
That's your opinion which i take on board. But me personally, quality is quality & i don't see how he couldn't take over either Silva or KDB's role in their team.
You should get your stats off the official Premier League site because the ones you got from Reddit are wrong I think. Per 90 minutes Pogba ran 10.4km (3009/90 = 33.5 - 348.52/33.5 = 10.4) last season and was in the bottom bracket for midfielders across the league, possibly in the bottom 5 IIRC (there was a thread on it on here).
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison
I don't agree on your last point and I don't think managers that obey a system do either, hence why people were scratching their heads at Sarri not playing Kante at the base of his midfield or why Pep launched Ibra.
I don't think that Pep would ever buy Pogba.
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I'm going off what I've seen teams do in the past. Obviously you will know, not all teams that have used a midfield 3 have had a requirement that all of them be all action. Unless you're arguing that, that kind of system is now outdated? (which would be another discussion).
My point about Liverpool's midfield is that, it works for them because they have an unbelievable front 3. If they didn't have that front-line, then their midfield would be getting questioned i believe. Like we all thought it was mediocre before Salah & Mane had their breakout seasons.
That's weird, they quote the premier league but something must be off somewhere then. Using your link, they have Pogba at 9.96km/match. Interestingly, Wijnaldum ran 9.52km/match it says. David Silva ran 9.19km/match. Milner is at 8.09km/match & Henderson is at 8.01km/match. Have another check. It's strange.
The Premier League site divides the total distance ran by number of games played but this is badly flawed because sub apps badly skew the data. To get the best reflection you do a per 90 comparison - so total minutes divided by 90 and then the total distance divided by number of 90 minutes.That's my source and workings for all distances covered I have posted. Only Messi in world football can get away with running 8km a game!
If you look at the 1st, 2nd & 3rd sides last season they all favoured 4-3-3 and they all have high intensity players in the two wider central midfield positions. This is why Sarri played Kante there, the base has to have some talent on the ball to go along with reading of the game, hence Jorginho. Klopp signed guys like the Ox and Kieta to play in those positions because the can play with that intensity. That's how the system works in its true form, Klopp isn't getting away with anything, its on purpose. Those players don't even have to be creative so long as the forwards are good enough but they always have to be defensive solid and hard working.
I tend to disagree with your sentiment that individual quality is king. I really feel it's something that's becoming outdated actually and that team cohesion is becoming more and more vital.
Yeah i thought something was wildly off with the stats. I knew that marathon runner Milner wouldn't be on 8km!
You talk a lot of sense, i agree that the way those systems function, you generally want high intensity players in there. Surely there's a position for Paul fecking Pogba to play though. If not, you just have to build the team another way. I don't see us attempting to follow Klopp or Pep's system anyway. That would be a fools errand in my opinion. They are light years ahead in comparison. We have to focus on being the team on the new wave of tactical breakthroughs.
Pogba could play in Sarri's system though i believe. He had Kovacic & Barkley on the other side of Kante. It's not like they are all-action monsters. So i think people can get too hung up on players not being able to function in 'modern teams'. I don't think Klopp is getting away with anything also, if he never had such a front 3, then he too would have to adapt his midfield for creativity i imagine. That's what i meant.
I do agree with the sentiment that teams reign king over individual players, but i've never known it to be any different really. From Kaka, to Lampard, Gerrard, Bergkamp etc... The greatest individual players have always been enhanced by being supported by a great team with a cohesive unit. We can build a strong team here and have Pogba at the spearhead of it. I really believe that.
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He's fit? What kind of injury is it?
I don’t think whether we remember them or no is the matter of issue here. If clips are provided & we with human eyes can see them & enough with capability to make the decision whether the chance is good or no. From my understanding xG is just another tools which part of more advanced statistic than normal stats let’s say whoscored.com.
However, xG is still a statistic relied on technology or computer. My point is that our eyes & brain are smarter to judge something than a machine.
Passing can looks much better depends on the receiver & the executor. Passing can looks much worse depend on the opposition defender how they anticipate them before the passes are made. And there are still more things you can consider. xG won’t be able to judge it.
If you have time to argue about it, find & show me James & McTomminay’s pass for the ones you mentioned before higher than Pogba. Beside, you are also ignoring other 3 Pogba’s key passes.
Otherwise, there is no way we can progress this conversation longer.
They are very subjective as well.
I don't know what you guys are still arguing about in relation to xG stats but that point only weakens your argument.
How so? Unless if you also think that a computer is smarter to judge than us?
It's not but its a few orders of magnitude more objective. I'm not questioning your judgment about whatever passes or chances you were talking about, I'm just saying, however smart you may be, your judgment is still subjective. That's why something like xG stats is helpful as it gives an objective analysis of the game as long as you understand the biases underlying the statistics and parameters it's based on. Of course, no one should be assigning wins or losses based on these stats.
I also did mention in my previous post that stats is useful to support our judgement but at the end of the day the final decision will be based on our eye. I never say we shouldn’t be using stats because they aren’t helpful.
Players can buy into an idea if they can see how well it benefits them. I would be more inclined to believe that Pogba would work harder for Pep or Klopp, if it meant he gets the ball in more dangerous areas to do his damage. Our pressing isn't all that great right now. The best it was, was in those first few 5 matches.Meanwhile, our pressing this season hasn't really given us the same types of chances we got from those first few matches even with players like Lingard being the hard working #10.
We don't spring traps as well as they do, nor do we seem as suffocating to the opposition.
It really isn't when it comes to xG and chance creation though. The database that Opta uses draws on situations plays from thousands of games to assess a players likelihood of scoring in a given position.
To put in most simply, one of the factors that it looks at is how many goals are scored from the position where the attacker shoots from in previous games in top level football, so if attackers have scored from that position 50% of times in the the past then the xG in that situation is 0.5. The model is more complex than that and factors in many other variables but the chance is rated by how players have performed in the same situations in real football matches in the past. It is far more comprehensive and complex than the human memory can ever be and isn't subject to bias in the same way. Humans are exceptionally flawed when it comes to biases.
If you're talking about the xPTS table then sure, it becomes a lot more woolly but when it comes to individual chance quality its pretty solid.
A previous poster was trying to discredit the model because McT's pass was a long punt into a space that Rashford was in, which ended up putting him clear, although in a difficult position to get the ball under control. The intentions of the assisting player has nothing to do with the quality of the chance rating.
Pogba's xA from 4 'key passes' in this game was 0.28 so none of the chance were anywhere near what you would call 'big', in fact they were all situations where the forward was highly unlikely to score. Messi only outperforms his xG by about 15% and he's by far the most remarkable player in this regard, from 4 chances only adding up to 0.28 xA its unlikely that even he would find the net. That said, on the chance that went wide of an optimal shooting position on to Rashford's left and a defender was close by, perhaps Messi's xG in that specific position would be higher because of the strengths of the player and him being left footed. I'd imagine that Opta provide clubs with much more detailed xG that would include more player specific data.
Pogba has only created 1 'big chance' this season. That's where the player should reasonably be expected to score given the performance of past players in a similar position in the past. This was against Chelsea and Rashford scored the chance.
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created
If you look at Pogba's career, generally he outperforms his xA, 11-12 more assists than the quality of his chances average over the past 5 seasons , so the idea that his team mates aren't scoring amazing chances that he creates and makes him look bad is very questionable one.
https://understat.com/player/1740
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Perhaps but why wouldn't he buy into Ole's system?
I don't believe his running stats were great at Juve either, I think @devilish confirmed this in another thread IIRC.
I think with Pogba, it isn't just his lower work rate in terms of distance covered, its his lack of speed off the mark that hinders him in such a system too. I can only really see him play as the DLP in such a system but then he's to careless on the ball too often as the last man in midfield when pressed.
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